Working with a team of makers – with Chloe Hannay – Willow & Bert Interiors

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas To Life Podcast, practical advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host Vicki Weinberg. Chloe Hannay is the founder of Willow and Bert Interiors. Chloe is an interior designer and soft furnishings consultant who also creates bespoke beautiful handcrafted curtains, blinds, cushions, and other soft furnishings, which are always finished with a Willow and Bert signature flourish. I absolutely love talking to Chloe. She's the first guest I've had on who, what she offers is I would describe it as a products and a service all in one. Um, I was fascinated by that. Um, I don't know much about the world of design and interior design, particularly. Um, it was a really interesting conversation and I really hope that you also find it enjoyable and you learn from it and you're inspired too. So I'd love now to introduce you to Chloe. So hi Chloe, thank you so much for being here.

Chloe Hannay: 00:01:06

No, not at all. It's really nice to talk to you Vicki.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:09

So can we please start with you giving an introduction to yourself and your business, please?

Chloe Hannay: 00:01:13

Yes, of course. Hi there. I'm Chloe and I live in Edenbridge in Kent with my husband and five children. Um, we are part of a big, crazy blended family and it's fair to say life is quite chaotic with five teenagers in the house. So, um, Willow and Bert started about eight years ago, and it really grew, um, from a passion that I've always had for interior design or interiors. Um, as a child, I watched my parents doing up various houses, um, and enjoy kind of looking and seeing what they were doing on it. It was really quite fun when the builders were in and things were moving around. Um, I also remember going to antique fairs with my family as well, and looking for things. My parents always used to have lots of kind of coffee table books, which I remember sort of weekend mornings flicking through and just kind of wondering how it all came together. And, and, and how houses became the homes that they are. So I've always had that long held interest. I think my big passion as well as a child was the Laura Ashley catalogue. And I would spend hours planning how I wanted every room in my, you know, my future house to be. Um, there isn't any Laura Ashley stuff in my house, I have to say. I think it definitely planted a seed inside me at a very young age in terms of interior design and looking at how things hang together in the home.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:26

Amazing. So can you please, um, tell us, well, first of all, maybe when you started Willow and Bert and then just give us a really brief summary of what it is that you do please.

Chloe Hannay: 00:02:37

Yeah, sure. So the business um, as I said started about eight years ago and it's evolved very, very quickly. Um, and I would say that when I initially started the business, I, um, had a partner at that point. At the moment it's, it's just me, but we would sync solely making curtains and blinds and soft furnishings. And that was great. It was really rewarding and it was great to work alongside someone at that, at that point in time. And the business, as I say, evolved quite quickly. And it became clear to me when I was talking to people, and visiting their houses, actually they didn't just want one blind, some cushions, a curtain, a headboard. They actualy wanted a bit more, is actually how, how to, how the rooms could hang together. And so the interior design side of the business has grown, um, probably more so over the five, six years. And that's been hugely enjoyable just to kind of branch out in a slightly different direction from how I originally envisaged the business growing, I would say.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:34

Oh, that's amazing. So originaly you were making everything yourself, is that right?

Chloe Hannay: 00:03:38

Yeah, that's right. So that was, that was brilliant. I always wanted to do something creative. I had a former former career in the city, um, and then subsequently married and had kids and it just wasn't gonna be feasible. to continue that. But I was always really keen to do something creative. And at the time we were also doing up our own house as well. So it was, it was really enjoyable to kind of think about how to do that. And I, yes, originally um, I started out making all the items myself, which was, which was great, really rewarding and a really, um, good creative outlet. Um, it then became evident to me that there was more work coming in than I could really keep up with. And the key things happened. I moved house. I didn't have room for a workshop in my house anymore. Um, which meant it was kind of a challenge to fulfill the work. And unfortunately at the same time I developed, um, tennis elbow on my right hand and actually right arm and actually became quite difficult to even thread a needle at that time. So I had to start to look elsewhere. So the business, the quantity of work coming in was growing and I couldn't really keep up. So I started to look elsewhere to find support from other makers. And that's how I suppose I've been able to grow the business, um, quite quickly by having other people to support me. And, and again, that's been really nice as well. Because I've then been able to have a team alongside me and it feels a bit more, more of a collegiate approach, which I have to say. I really enjoy. And I miss that from my old life working in the city.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:00

Oh so that's amazing. So that's something I wasn't actually aware of. So you now have peep makers supporting you to kind of make the things that you're designing for your clients. Is that the right way of saying it?

Chloe Hannay: 00:05:11

So, yes, it's really enjoyable having, having a team of people behind you and knowing that they're working hard to fulfill your brief and your vision for clients. Um, it's, it's, it's worked really well and I've enjoyed working alongside lots of different, different specialists in their field. So upholsters, um, people who are very good at making headboards or specific types of curtains and there's a lot of expertise out there and it's been really enjoyable to work with other people.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:38

Yeah. And I guess it also has meant that you can expand on what you're able to offer your clients, because presumably you couldn't make all of these things yourself.

Chloe Hannay: 00:05:47

So yes, it's been good to work alongside other people and not to have all the mess contained in my own house because, um, upholstery is a, quite a dirty, messy business. And certainly with curtain and blind making as well there's a lot of, um, lot of materials required, a lot of fluff that floats around. And when that's not just all kind of coming to rest in your own home, it's nice that it's outside and an external place, and you can shut the door and work at the end of the day and just enjoy being in your own, in your own home.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:14

That makes it, you know, I never thought about it being dirty and messy before, but I guess, yeah, there's lots of bits. I guess there's lots of thread and as you say stuffing and things floating around.

Chloe Hannay: 00:06:23

All sorts of gubbins and I couldn't tell you that the nasty surprises you sometimes find on the back of the sofa. So, um, yeah, it's good to have that away from the home. I have to say. It makes a difference.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:34

Yeah, that makes, oh, I didn't even think about that. So of course we see you were reupholstering furniture as well.

Chloe Hannay: 00:06:39

Yeah. Yeah. I started um, I suppose when the, this whole, I hate to say the word journey, but the whole journey started for me back in 2007. Um, just after my daughter was born and I was really keen to, while I was on maternity leave, I was really keen to do something creative that would get me out of the house once a week for a couple of hours and just fulfill that need to do something for myself a little bit, whilst in the throws of early motherhood. So I started doing adult education, upholstery course in Tunbridge Wells once a week, which I absolutely loved. It was just brilliant being immersed in this sort of slightly kooky underground worlds of older ladies should we say. Who were just having a lovely time together and, and, you know, having fun. Um, so from there the passion grew, and then I realized that I wanted to do more than just upholstery. And so that's continued my studies with, um, with the city and guilds diploma, and then also looked into the curtain of blind making. Um, and so kind of expanded my, my knowledge that way.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:36

Yep. So it's all fairly recent then isn't it that you've been doing? I mean, I know from what you said earlier, you've obviously had an interest interiors for a long time, but I guess you're actually sort of learning how to make it yourself. It's still fairly recent.

Chloe Hannay: 00:07:50

Yeah, I suppose, um, it feels recent to me, but I have to say, I started just after my daughter was born and she's approaching 15. So actually when I look back on it, on that, in that sense, it does, it feels like I've been going for a long time. Um, but yeah, no, it's, it's something that I, I really enjoy and I feel really lucky that I'm able to do it. I've been able to always work in this field since the children were really small and it's really rewarding and it fits in, um, around them. That's the key part of it or.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:19

So now that you've sort of changed your business slightly and you have other people working with you. Are you missing the sort of hands-on side or not so much?

Chloe Hannay: 00:08:28

Massively, massively. Um, that that's exactly where I wanted to start. That's exactly why I started. And, um, I still do small bits of sewing and, uh, and I, I love that. I love the chance to kind of get everything, you know, get all the tools out again and make a bit of a mess, um, and try and keep it contained into one, one room at home now. Um, but yeah, it's, that's the part I miss. So I suppose the making things was one part of the creative process and the other part now, which is fulfilled through the interior design is putting together schemes and plans for the clients. And so I suppose I get my fix in that sense, but I do miss actually kind of threading, threading a needle and pinning fabric and looking at how, what now, how it all needs to lie in and smoothing things out. And that I think I do miss that. I kind of feel like I've been able to expand the business into a direction wich is fulfilling, even if I can't make any longer, because unfortunately I still have tennis elbow so it's a bit boring in that sense.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:26

I think that makes perfect sense. As you said, I think it's a really good business decision because sometimes, I think that lots of makers come up against is you only have so many hours in the day or the week or whatever it is. And so there comes a limit to what you can actually produce yourself. So I think business wise, it does make total sense, but I can also see how you would really miss being so hands on.

Chloe Hannay: 00:09:47

Yeah, the creative fix. Yes. It definitely, it definitely means that I've been able to scale the business up in terms of volume. Um, as I said, my, my, my family life is quite crazy with the seven of us. And, um, and it does, it does take up a lot of time running it, running a house and a family of seven at times. So actually the way that it works now, it fits in with the family. I'm quite adept at the early morning start or the late finish, or try not to work too much at the weekends, but certainly evenings. Um, I do often need to put the hours in, so it, it fits in well with family life. I'm here when I need to be obviously completely focussed, but also my I'm able to quickly duck into work mode if I need to aswell.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:26

Yeah, that makes sense. So one of the reasons I'm obviously so interested in talking to you Chloe, is that what you offer is, I guess, both a product and a service, I guess, more of a service, it's a service and the product, isn't it? Um,because I was really fascinated by that. So would you mind talking a little bit about what it is that you offer? So if I came to you and said, oh I'd like my room designing. Um, as you can probably tell, I've never worked with an interior designer. Let's say I came to you and said, I'd like this room designing, what, what is the process you go through. Just give people an idea of how it all ties together. That'd be great.

Chloe Hannay: 00:11:01

Yeah. So I think the key thing is always, um, it's always, I'm always keen to know how, how someone finds me if it's word of mouth, if it's any of the advertising that we do, if it's social media. That's often a part of it. And, um, the main thing I'm always really keen to do is to try and meet a client face to face, um, ideally as soon as possible. And that makes a huge difference. Sometimes when clients approach me just by email and they want a quote for this and here are the measurements, it's very, very difficult to convey what we do and the processes and talk through the nuances. Obviously, if their space, especially if they're just sending through a few photographs. So I do find that the key thing is to try and get a meeting in the diary as quickly as possible with the clients and go out and visit them and have a look at the space. Um, I'll then take a set of measurements and photographs, as long as they're happy with me to take photographs, which generally everyone is. And then the key thing is then just to put together an estimate of what, um, what it is that they are asking for and what it is that I can, you know, how I'm going to fulfill that brief. Um, it's always nice as well, during that first meeting to sit and chat through what a client's tastes are, what the colors are that they like, the patterns they like, dislikes. Um, look at the rest of the room, are there other furniture, paintings, the flooring. Key thing as well as to look at where the light is coming in from the room and where that, where that sort of falls, um, in the space that you're looking to to help furnish. So there's lots of things which I suppose I'm thinking about when I'm in a room talking to a client that they won't necessarily know. Um, but I'm kind of gathering as much information as possible Um, and if the meeting is going well and it looks like it's going to be a positive outcome, I'll often ask the client then to fill in a briefing document, which gives me a really good steer on their likes and dislikes. Because it's very hard when you go into someone's house in the first instance to necessarily know why they chose certain colors or why they haven't chosen certain colors and pattern as well. So it really helps to build up a clear picture of what that client likes and dislikes. And I think that's really important. So the other thing, I guess that's really, really key is to know if you're going to, when you do meet them, is if you know you're going to get on. Um, I worked with a great person, fitterr, who always says to me, Chloe, just listen to your inner voice. And if the feeling is that we're not going to get on, um, as a, as a designer and client, then I do try really hard to make sure that, you know, that's not the case, but sometimes you just don't gel with everybody. And I think I've come to learn over the last eight years or so that actually, sometimes I'm not the right fit for someone or they might not be the right fit for me. Or maybe I just can't meet their deadlines sometimes. Clients do have tight deadlines. So I think that first meeting is key and it's about being honest with yourself and with the client, but usually it's a really easy process. And once I've sent through an estimate and the client will get back in touch and sort of say yes or no, and then we'll go from there. We'll start looking at fabrics and scoping out the project. Um, and it becomes, obviously it's a two way street, I don't try and impose any particular style or, or kind of preferences that I have, um, on, on a client. Obviously it's not my space. I don't live in it, but I do try and guide clients, um, with sort of sensible decisions and explain the nuances of some of the things I'm sort of suggesting. Um, and hopefully then we can start to create a space that is going to add value to their home and that they're going to want to spend time in.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:24

Yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you for explaining that. And so are you looking at, say, if you're looking at a room, are you looking for maybe things like the colours on the wall or the paper on the wall to the flooring, to the furniture? Um, I guess it depends on the scopes. I suppose some people might already have lovely flooring that they want to keep. But in theory you're looking at a room overall and suggesting all of the elements that go into that.

Chloe Hannay: 00:14:47

It depends. Um, definitely that's part of what I'm absorbing when I walk into a space for the first time. I'm even, if they're not asking me for ideas about carpet or, or lights or lamps or anything like that, or, sorry, lampshades, um, I'm, I'm still absorbing kind of what it is that they've got in their room. And then as the conversation goes on, I'll ask them if that's what they want to keep or they want to take out. Sometimes we're guided by a particular painting or a piece of furniture. So it is key to kind of look at the place and what they've got. Um, in terms of, in terms of the actual kind of clients and how they work. A lot of them, I've sort of, I suppose I've segregated my clients into three different types and, um, It's interesting, kind of to, to, to do that because it helps sort of focus the mind and understand, and really listen to what they want. And I kind of, at first, the first type of client, I would say I've got, is when I go and visit someone and they know, they know exactly what they want and they know how they want to do it, or that they know how they want me to do it, I should say. And it's just, it's a very simple, straightforward process. They just want help with the execution and also encouragement. You know, they've built a Pinterest board or they've got some ideas and they just want someone else to say yes, that's going to work because of these reasons. So that's sort of one, one key client type. The second type., I'd say are clients who have ideas, but they're not quite sure how to do it, or will it work or is it a bad idea because of X, Y, Z. And so, um, you know, we'll then start building, building a picture and sort of putting all those ideas together and a mood board or looking at samples and just working out exactly, am I going to be able to deliver the vision that's in there, in their head. And then I'd say that the kind of the third type of clients I've got, um, kind of know nothing. And they're not really interested in interior design, but they know that they, you know, they have a home and they want that home to be comfortable and they want that home to be practical and to work for all members of the household. So, but they just don't know how do it. So they're keen to kind of hand over the project and they're generally, as I'd say, most of my clients are very open to ideas. And so it's, it's nice to have sort of three different types of clients and, and go from that. Um, in terms of which direction anyone wants to pursue.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:58

Yeah, thank you for explaining it. Because I know there must be so many nuances. There's never going to be just a black and white answer as there probably isn't going to be to my next question. So I'm really curious about, so obviously you mentioned that you work with lots of different makers, so I'm really curious as to whether the things you suggest, the clients use. So is it all, um, uh, bespoke pieces that you work with makers to create? So cushions and curtains, or are you also looking at things that you can source from other places? I'm just genuinely curious about how that all works, because it's, I guess it's such uh, project, isn't it? How everything in the room comes together.

Chloe Hannay: 00:17:38

Absolutely. And it's a minefield and of course the other thing you've got to be careful about and be guided by is the client's budget, um, you know, sometimes clients can be quite kind of, um, shocked I guess, by the cost of bespoke curtains and blinds. But then when you explain the difference and you show them the difference in terms of quality of the work that we're delivering or hoping to deliver, they understand exactly what it is they're going to get for. And it's not a sort of one size fits all from any number of high street retailers. Not that I'm slacking off high street retailers, but in terms of sourcing items, um, we do a mixture. So I work with, uh, the lighting companies and, and we'll buy lighting from them. But we might then personalize that, that lamp base with a, with a lampshade and a fabric that works better for the client's room and matches the curtains, for instance, in some way or compliments the curtains I should say in some way. So I think it's really important just to always understand what the budget is to look at where they want to spend money and to, um, look at what could be reused as well from within the room. Sometimes, you know, it's a case of just repainting something or changing, changing, handles out, repositioning actually furniture within a room makes a big difference and also potentially changing the lighting. If you light a painting really well, then that can kind of completely change it's the perception in the room. So I would say that, um, there's a variety in terms of what we do. It's not, um, it's not always bespoke, happy to kind of source client cushions from a number of places, but equally there is, you know, if you, if you have a set of cushions made, which are fabric that you've chosen with a trim that you've chosen, they're completely unique to you. And a lot of the clients that I have, they want that, they want something that's completely unique to them and to their room. And that's what will make their home perfect.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:27

Thank you for explaining that. And it's so interesting. I think, because I guess. When you talk about the products side of your business, I guess there are these two elements to it. So there's what I guess your designing to actually create. I want to say from scratch, maybe not from scratch, but maybe you're looking at a chair and thinking' oh we could, we could upholster it like this', for example. And then there's, you know, thinking about the things that you can potentially, things that already exist, that you can source or maybe, or maybe modify as you said. There's a, a lot involved.

Chloe Hannay: 00:19:59

There is a lot involved and also it can be quite a lengthy process as well. So I think sometimes one of the first questions I always ask clients is, you know, what are you, what are your timescales for this? You know, have you got a deadline? Um, are we, are we trying to deliver this within some crazy crazy timescale. And it's always a delight when someone says, no, I'm quite relaxed. You know, this is something I want to start in the autumn or you know, that there isn't quite such a time sensitive issue and I've got a project on at the moment. Um, and it's on a very tight time scale and it's been a bit kind of, you know, um, harem scarem. And, but it's also been really enjoyable because we've made quick decisions, the clients very decisive and it's been really enjoyable. So there's a good balance, I think in terms of how things, how things work. Um, oh, I was going to say something else then but I can't think of what it wa.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:45

Don't worry. It sounds like you needs a lot of project management skills.

Chloe Hannay: 00:20:49

Yes, exactly. And lots of project management skills are required. And also an endless supply of post-it notes and my to do list never really sort of seems to get any less. But that's kind of, that's the way I work best, I think, with a, with a never-ending to do this. And I think the other thing that's obviously had an impact and it'd been strange not to mention it, but it's obviously, it's COVID as well. So the last two years have had a real impact, you know, work, um, was busy before we went into lockdown and it has absolutely continued, which is fantastic. But interestingly, now we're seeing more issues with supply. Fabric supply of, of items that we've ordered for clients' houses. And actually it started to get more frustrating kind of 18 months, two years down the line in terms of deliverables than it was when we first started. So it's, um, it's a constant state of kind of negotiation and communication with suppliers and clients to get um, everything on track. And I think also talking back to your point about timescales, um, this is also an industry where people want to have things in place by certain, certain times. So for instance, Christmas is always, or the run-up to Christmas. You know, we all know how, how busy that is for anyone, um, trying to juggle work and a family and all of that. I would say in the interior design world is usually pretty manic from about September onwards. Um, so yes, any clients that want anything please start thinking about it now. Um, because we do put this pressure on ourselves to have these perfect houses for the, you know, the Christmas period, but my word, it can be difficult to, to, to make that happen without plenty of planning beforehand.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:27

Yeah, I can imagine. And thank you for bringing up COVID as well. Because that's something that in a way we sort of almost feel like we've started to move on from it, but actually as you say, that, that the impact is still there. And I know that there's a global shortage of just so many things at the moment, um, which I think has impacted lots of people. Out of interest though were you able to still continue during COVID or did you have to adapt.

Chloe Hannay: 00:22:55

Um, I think I was really lucky. I had quite a few projects underway and, um, had some, some clients who were happy to continue. Obviously we, we were on zoom quite a lot and phone calls a lot more, I suppose, as opposed to site visits. Um, and really work I would say that my work wasn't affected. The quantity of work went up, and that was great. But I think because, because materials were still available, we were able to keep getting items made. And we're obviously, we're very careful with any site visits that we did once we were allowed to start doing site visits, you know, after the initial first few months. Um, so I'd say it hasn't, it didn't really had an impact. Um, but I think what has happen now is that COVID gets the blame for a lot of things, even though, you know, we're out of it, we don't have any lock downs, you know, anymore. I think the delays that the delays that we've incurred, they're now an excuse for kind of things taking longer than they should do, and obviously energy prices are pushing the cost of materials up and production. So we're unfortunately, a lot of my costings have had to go up slightly because we've got to pass all of those, these, um, those surcharges on. So it's been a little bit frustrating in that sense. And obviously the other thing that I think, um, has become a struggle sometimes is also courier companies as well. You know, we all know how hard push they are to deliver. And I think that's something that we've been at the mercy at for the last few years because of COVID. So I guess it's being, understanding where you can, but also wanting to keep everything on track as much as possible.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:25

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think as well, this is possibly an advantage of working with sort of smaller makers rather than perhaps large, because I'm under the impression, and tell me if I'm wrong Chloe, you're working with individual makers in most instances, rather than big factories, because I guess those people were able to still keep going.

Chloe Hannay: 00:24:44

Yeah, that's the case. So we've worked with a few, a few suppliers in big factories, and obviously they largely shut down and they shut down for longer. Um, but I think they, they did pivot quite quickly. Some of the fabric companies, when they realized obviously people still wanted to place orders and were able to that still happen. But I'd say a large percentage of the people that I work with are yes, people who have, you're working at home. So, you know, they were, they were fortunate in that sense as was I, that they were able to still continue with work and just about able to juggle that into, um, family life with, with, with homeschooling. So yeah, not, not a lot of fun. I would say for the most people but we got through it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:21

Yeah and good that everyone could keep going as well to some extent, Out of interest, if you don't mind me asking, while, while are we talking about this. How did you, um, pull together your network of people, of makers to work with?

Chloe Hannay: 00:25:35

It's um, it's well, I suppose it's, it's kind of never ending because, um, businesses change and people might decide that they don't want to, um, they don't want to work with others, not for any dramatic reasons, but just because their own, their own timings change or whatever. Um, so I guess it's, it's a, it's a case of kind of constantly networking and trying to find people who can help and who are willing to help and who you get along with. Um, that, that I'd say is a key thing. Um, I, I've been a part of, um, various networking groups in the past, and that's been a really good way of finding support and help, um, through kind of virtual, you know, virtual assistants or, you know, a new upholsterer, that kind of thing. Um. Oh, photographers for projects or anyone to help with social media. So I think it's just been, I've been lucky in a sense that social media has provided the answer to a lot of, lots of the problems I've faced in terms of finding support, which I think when you're a small business and you've got to be Jack of all trades. Um, you've, you've really got to work hard to find the people who will support you and who you get along with and who understands you. So I would say that it's, it is a constant process of making sure you've got the right team around you and you're supporting them and giving them the information they need to then help you in return.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:53

Yeah, thank you for that. And I hope you don't mind me asking. I, I just, it just occurred to me that you're possibly the first person I've spoken to on the podcast who started out purely, started out doing the making yourself, but now have a team to support you. Um, I don't think I've spoken to anyone else in that position, which is why I wanted to ask the question. Um, for anyone listening, who thinks, well, maybe I could have someone, you know, helping me. Whatever it, whatever it is. Because I think sometimes when you run a small business and I have definitely been guilty of this, you get into the mindset of, you know, you're, you're the person who does it all. Um, and I think a lot of us can, can spend a long time in that space of just thinking you have to do the making and the admin, right.

Chloe Hannay: 00:27:39

Yeah, definitely. And it's really hard, I think as well to delegate because when you're self employed, it is, it's everything. And I remember as a child, I, I had this, both my parents were self employed and I really, really, really didn't want to be self-employed because I could see how stressful it was, how hard they had to work. Um, and how stressful it was at times. And I was adamant, absolutely adamant that it wasn't something I was going to do and to now be doing it um, I sort of look at myself and think, oh, crumbs, why am I in this situation? But it works really well in terms of family life. And the logistical challenges of my life. So I think it is one of the things you do end up having to realize that if you're going to have a product and also you've got a service then, or any kind of small business, where you've got to realize that that help is out there and just for the business to succeed for people to buy your product or want to use your service, you can't still be solely responsible. For all your Instagram, all your social media, all your invoicing, all the ordering, all the admin that goes on behind the scenes. It's, you've got to start to ask for help. And I think that was a really big realization for me that I, I cannot do it all, especially, um, as I've alluded to with my family life, as well it's, it needs, something has to give and asking for help is, is really important. And also, I think then working alongside other people who are helping you, it gives you input. They have ideas and they are passionate about what you do as well. Um, so I think that's been a really enjoyable part of the last few years as the business has grown is actually has, has actually been delegating to other people and understanding, you know, what goes on in the outside world. It's not just my own little silo that I sit in day in, day out.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:23

Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think because as well as you've alluded to, I guess if you have a business where that is, you know, as yours is, which is a service and a product, you know, you have, you offer both, um, I guess there comes a point where you physically cannot be the person doing both if you want to expand beyond a certain point,.

Chloe Hannay: 00:29:43

Definitely a hundred percent. It just out, there just aren't enough hours in the day and, you know, weekends are there to have a break in the working week. So it's yeah, it's, it's, it's so important to stop I would say.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:56

Absolutely. So I have one final question Chloe if that's okay. And it's a question I ask all of my guests, which is what is your number one piece of advice for other product creators?

Chloe Hannay: 00:30:06

Okay. Well, I had a hunch this question might be coming up. So I did have, I did have a think about it. I am not very good at just sticking to a rule. And so I've actually probably got about sort of three or four bits of advice. And so I'm hoping I'm allowed to share those because I think it's, I've had some really valuable learnings on this kind of, oh I hate the word journey, but that's what I'm on. So I think the key thing I would say is to know your customer and when you go and visit them, take the time to listen to them and what they're asking of you, why, why have they approached you? And there must be something that you've done that they like, or that they say there must be something that they've they've heard or they've seen or viewed. So I think it's always good to kind of ask the question and reassure them that you can still provide that same level of service and expertise for them. Um, the, I suppose the second thing we talked about a little bit is, um, as a small business, you are relying upon suppliers and this, this is really hard. And I think it's really good to ensure that you've got the people,, the right people around you and that you are working with them and with their timescales as well. It's quite difficult, you know, you're not going to make any friends if you're demanding about people fullfiling your timescales. You've got to, it's got to be some flex in the world. I think that's really been really important for me. So, um, knowing, knowing who's helping you and looking after them is a really good is a really good, um, sort of thing to have in the back of your mind, we're all human and we've all got kind of demands on our time. I think it's also good to always ensure that you try and tell your clients when things aren't going to be delivered on time and to communicate that as quickly as possible to them. And I think the last two years have shown how key that communication is. So I think also the other thing I would say is take on clients you like and think will work well with you and vice versa. And we can't be expected to get along with everyone in the world. And I think I've, I'm definitely guilty of saying yes, to all business that comes my way. I have a fear of the work drying up and sometimes I've taken on projects and I've thought, oh gosh, I hope we're not going to run into you. Hope this is all going to go smoothly. And 9 times out of 10, it does. And it's brilliant, but I do sometimes worry that, you know, that that might not be the case. And I'd say the last thing, um, for any, any business owner really, um, create your own products, um, provider is be re be really realistic about your logistics. You know, um, my home life is quite demanding and so I have to be careful about how much time I actually spend traveling, um, travel time to me, it kind of kills creativity and that to do list in the back of your mind only grows as you drive further and further away from home. So I think sometimes just be really mindful of what you can actually give in the hours that you need to spend sitting at your desk. The schemes for clients and putting together that designs because actually that's what matters. It doesn't matter that you're chasing a client, who's an extra 20 miles down the road. If it's not really a project that's going to give you, um, kind of a spark of enthusiasm and excitement. Um, so I think it's really key to start to think about your logistics and, and, and organize your time effectively.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:14

Thank you and absolutely no problems giving more than one piece of valuable advice. So thank you so much for that. And thank you for being so prepared.

Chloe Hannay: 00:33:23

Well, I tried.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:26

I'm getting a real sense of what it must be like to work with you Chloe. You're very, I can tell you're very organized. Well, thank you so much for absolutely everything that you've shared. I've found it fascinating talking to you and yeah. Thank you.

Chloe Hannay: 00:33:38

My pleasure. It's been lovely talking to you, Vicki. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogues and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.