Meet the Mind Behind Evolve – with Freddie Titcombe

Welcome to the Bring youg Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hello.

Today on the podcast, I'm speaking to Freddie Titcombe, the co founder of Evolve Journey, a brand helping people create lasting change in their lives through tool like the Evolve Journal, a guided system for goal setting, reflection and building consistent habits that stick. And soon an online accountability community.

All the different iterations and versions of the products over the years, all the things that have been learned and what their plans are for the future. It's a really fascinating conversation. If you're listening to this podcast, don't worry, you're not going to miss anything.

But if you are able to and you can get yourself onto YouTube where you can see this whole episode, you'll also get to see visual examples of some of the things that Freddie's talking about as well. But don't worry, if you are just listening, you're not going to miss anything.

It's still a great conversation, but the added visuals are great if that's something you're able to do. And remember, all of my episodes are online YouTube and you search for Vicki Weinberg. So I think now is a great time to introduce you to Freddie.

So hi Freddie, thank you so much for being here.

Pleasure, thanks for having me.

Oh, you're so welcome. Can we please start by you giving an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell?

So what we sort of solve is we have basically like two different buckets really. So we have a bucket of people that perhaps lacking a little bit of clarity and direction, don't necessarily know where they want to go in life.

I need a little bit of help and direction and then the sort of like second bucket is people who know how, they know where they want to go, but they're looking for a system and how to actually get there. So our flagship products, something called the Evolve Journal that we created ourselves.

So we've been going for quite a few years now just iterating the product. So interesting to chat to you today. And talk about the fun journey that we've had along the way.

Yeah, it was actually like we've always been really good mates. And then all of a sudden Covid came along and it was like, oh yeah, you're not allowed to see each other anymore.

So we were, well, it makes sense that we try and do something productive with all this time that we've got. So we set about creating our own business. The first few ideas just were like just pure money making schemes.

And we got into day two of sort of planning them out and we were like, you know what, this isn't for us. It doesn't actually excite us.

And then just through that process we'd been chatting and we'd both sort of stumbled across journaling as a tool to sort of.

We'd always been passionate about self development, but we found journaling was sort of like the tool that could sort of like bridge the gap between all the things that you were learning and then actually taking, taking action on an ongoing basis. So that then became a core focus.

Especially after we started looking out there and saying, you know what, what journals are out there, what's, what's available? And none of them were for us. They were all sort of like quite cringy, definitely not aimed at us.

And they didn't really look like they had much thought put in behind them. We tried them, it didn't work.

So I guess it was a story of us spotting something that we actually wanted for ourselves and then building it and then praying that it would resonate with other people.

That's clearly. It has. Yeah, that's brilliant. And tell me a little bit about the journals and the system you use.

What makes your journals different to others that you were looking at?

Yeah.

So I think one of the key differences is that we, if we think back to those like two different buckets and those problems that we're trying to solve, we.

When people come into the journaling system at the beginning there's a discovery course and this is aimed at basically helping you with everything from your mindset to your limiting beliefs and then helps you to, to basically build your, your ideal vision for the future. And from there you work back. What is the main goal, the main focus that you're going to have during this, this journal, which is a six month journal.

And then you almost like graduated into A daily system of journaling, which is the, the system, the habit that helps you take the consistent action, reflect, adjust and make sure that you're, you're on the right path. And then with a lot of reflection as well, people can make sure that that goal is consistently what they want to work towards.

And then we've had people have like sort of domino goals as we call them, which is like the main goal that they're working towards. Be everything from like become a published scientist to lose a couple of stone to save up for my first house.

And then we've had those feedback from people that they've actually achieved those goals. Sometimes it's taken a little bit more than just one journal, but incredible that the sort of like system has helped them do that.

So it's got a little bit of an element of stoicism in there as well. So helping people just focus on what they can control and accept what they, what they can't. So there's quite a few things wrapped up in there.

To basically have a balanced approach to self development and build long term happiness is the sort of the main goal of the product, which is, I know a lofty one, but yeah, we've given it our best shot.

No, I think that sounds brilliant.

And I, as you were talking I was thinking a lot of the way you outline the journal helps is the work that you might perhaps do with a coach or a mentor. But not everyone has access to that. But lots of us do have big goals.

But often something stopping us, I'm sure you're related as well is like, well what do I do and how do I get there? A lot of us might know where we want to be. Well actually not all of us know where we want to be.

But even if we do sort of how to get from where we are to where we want to be is, you know, it can seem like a massive step. So I can definitely see how the journal would support that.

Yeah, exactly. And, and I think like knowing, knowing where you want to go is really powerful.

But also one of the scariest things that I think about a lot is like, am I actually climbing up the right ladder? So I've got these big lofty goals, but what about what happens when I get there at the end? So we're trying to kind of try to solve for that as well.

So it's like we want people to constantly, as they're progressing be like, is this, is this right for me? Like what am I going to do next? And it's that kind of like I think it's like a Haitian proverb. Beyond mountains, there are more mountains.

So the aim is that with the journal, if you're doing it consistently, then by the time you hit that. That goal, you already know what is next for you.

And you don't have that sort of like the feeling of, oh, well, I've got it all now, but I don't feel how I was hoping I would feel, which. Which can lead to a little bit of disappointment. So it kind of tries to cover all bases.

That makes sense.

I'm sure I heard something really recently about someone saying that the time when people often feel most down is when they've just achieved something big.

Whether it's running a marathon or whether it's selling a company or whatever the thing is, can actually be something that triggers people to feel quite unhappy because suddenly they're not working towards anything anymore.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can think of quite a few, like, athletes, you think that they.

They've hit the pinnacle of their career, they've become world heavyweight champion of the world, or they've won X or Y. And then afterwards, there, it's like the rug's been pulled out beneath them and they don't know what to do.

They've lost their focus, they've lost their purpose. So it might not be that every goal needs to be as. As crazy as that, but they could, if.

If they want were reflecting, they could sort of hit that with a little bit of anticipation, say, you know, what am I going to do next? Because it's pretty natural that all of us want to be working on something, whether it's a hobby, a skill, or something creative.

It's like those moments where you stop and sort of do nothing is where you can find. Find yourself a little bit disillusioned.

Yeah, definitely. And a bit lost as well, actually.

Yeah.

So tell me a little bit more about turning your idea into a physical product. So what were some of the challenges in. Actually created?

Yeah, I mean, the. I'd say one of the biggest challenges for us were that we were so optimistic in the beginning.

Like, going into it, we were just like, between me and my brother, just like bouncing positivity off each other, like, well, it'll be two months. We'll be millionaires. Everybody's going to love it. It's going to be great. Bish bash bosh kind of approach was.

Was literally the way that we first, like, approached the. The design. And I guess some of the. The challenges there wasn't necessarily in, like, getting our ideas down.

It was just sort of like a naivety of not necessarily like thinking through all elements. It was just. We were just so like new to doing it. I've actually got like an example of like the first one here.

I don't know if you see that for the people that are just on audio to describe it. We launched it, we got it, we ordered a massive order, like way more than we should have done.

It should have been a much smaller one so that we could like learn from the feedback from, from customers. And then we got it and then we tried to take photos of it and we were like, this is awful to take photos of because it's so shiny.

Like the, the logo didn't show up. All the rest of it, there were like countless flaws within it as well. So.

So I guess like the, the challenge initially in the first place of like getting the idea to be created, it wasn't necessarily so much like the creating it, but creating it in a good way was the, was the challenge. And then we've basically just gone through so many revisions.

It's kind of like the Evolve journey, the Evolved Journal, kind of in the name that we're going to keep on continuously improving it. But yes, it's funny to look back at the first one and.

Do you have the most recent one to hand as well by any chance?

Yeah, so I've got this one which was the one in between, which is similar to the, to the most recent one. It was with an old supplier.

So some of the quality with the, the paper and stuff like that, like this one's actually like the old slightly older one is like 200 grams heav heavier than, than this one, which is like the, the most recent one that we have with our, our supplier at the moment.

And I guess one of the, the biggest game changes in, in recent time is not just like acting on the, the customer feedback, but finding a reliable supplier that just has like excellent communication skills has really, really helped us.

So before I think when we were like driving the product development and going through all of those phases, it was kind of all on us to spot quality issues, stuff like that and be proactive. Whereas now it's sort of like it feels like we're a collective team. They're invested in us doing well.

They've flagged issues with us that we didn't even spot or realize, which could have been really costly, delayed us quite a lot. And they've, they've brought that to our attention.

So it's nice being in, feeling like I've got a partner on my side with, with the future products that we bring out, basically.

No, I think that's great. And I think it's really nice that the journals are evolving as well.

Not just because of the name, but because obviously you're taking on as well as well as the quality. You're looking at the quality and things that you might want to improve there. I assume you're getting feedback from customers as well.

Yeah, exactly. So we're constantly surveying the customers, having calls with them.

We've actually been really lucky with our customer base that they're really open to collaborating with us. It's not like they're hiding away. Whenever we ask for feedback, we get plenty of it, which has been super helpful.

And it's interesting to see sort of like the themes across it. It's quite a unique personal product. So everyone does sort of use it in their own different ways.

And we've heard people use it ways that like, we wouldn't even have imagined until we heard about it. So I guess one of the, the challenges that comes back from having so much customer feedback is that quite often they can be conflicting.

So what do you do there as a, as a product creator when you've got evidence on both sides pulling you in different directions is one of the sort of like, fun battles and the things that we're going through right now with the, with the current redesign of what we have at the moment with.

The journal, that is really hard. And I don't know how, I don't know what the answer is, but I guess you know the product better than anyone else and yeah, that is tricky.

Are you able to tell us an example of a change that you have made to one of the versions based on feedback from customers?

Yeah, trying to think of something off the, off the top of my head. One of the most recent changes was actually in the daily pages here. You see this one.

And I know it sounds like a small change, but that text in the daily pages is so much bolder and so much darker. Um, it was a much more subtle print design in the previous version.

And that I think looks great when you're in a well lit room, but when you're actually journaling, which is quite often before you go to bed in low light, it's a relaxing activity and then you sort of squint in to try and see what it is there. So with the new redesign, you can be in pretty low light and you can, you can still read the different text there, which I think is an example of.

We hadn't thought of that because we'd never actually struggled with it. And then some of the feedback is like, I'm a 50 year old guy, my eyesight's not the best, I can't actually read it.

And then you sort of put that into, into the product and it's definitely a big improvement.

Well, that's a brilliant example. Thank you. What happened with that initial, you mentioned your initial order was very big, bigger than perhaps you'd have. It needed to be.

What with that first order, did you manage to sell them all?

Yeah, unfortunately we didn't sell all of them.

I think we, because it was such a big order, we actually persevered and tried to like, trying to sell and continue going with the first journal a lot more than we would have done if we'd, I think it would have been clear if we'd ordered like a hundred of them that once we sold the 100 relatively quickly, we would have seen all the different improvements that we would have made and we would have jumped to it. So yeah, it definitely slowed us, slowed us down a little bit.

But you know, it's one of those, we've, we've learned from it now and now when, when we release something, it's generally a little bit smaller orders, test, test the market, get test orders, all that sort of stuff. So.

Yeah, thank you.

I think that's really useful for everyone to hear because it is, it can be tempting and I think also you can be pushed into making a much bigger role than you, than you'd like.

I was having a conversation with someone this morning about exactly that, about them feeling that they were being asked to, to order a few more than they were being comfortable with. Because I think for, for some suppliers, they, you know, they will do that. They will, they will push you to maybe go a bit further than you like.

Yeah.

And, and you can see that in their negotiation as well, where they, where they'll put in the like the minimum orders or they've got a target that they want to hit and they'll basically create a pricing structure where it doesn't really make much sense for you to order below that level. And then once you start doing the maths and you're like, well, there's more shipping, there's more storage and stuff like that.

So yeah, it's a fun battle to have for sure.

Definitely. So how did you get your first customers and start building awareness of what you were doing?

Yeah, so we were quite lucky in Sam's other business before he came. Sam's my brother, co founder, before we started the business was a digital marketing agency.

So he had a pretty good skill set to put to work to be able to go out and get our first cold customers.

I think we did all of the usual, ask all your friends and family if they want to get involved and like try and get them enthusiastic about changing their lives.

And then after that, yeah, it was, it was really like running ads, trying to develop a bit of a social media presence and try and get a bit of an encouragement into the people that were journaling to sort of share it with their friends and family and sort of frame it not, not as something that needs to be a one person transformation, but something where you could join it with someone else like a partner or a friend. And then one, you've got something that gives you a reason to keep, keep up with them, keep, keep in contact.

But then you've got the massive factor of like accountability as well to, to see, you know, have you been filling in your journal every day or what, what was your like big win from the week and stuff like that.

So that sort of helped gain momentum because once you've got one person who's sort of a bit of a super fan, then hopefully you can have a knock on effect and get quite a few more in.

That makes sense.

And are you finding that because the journal is something that evolves and you're publishing different versions, are you getting repeat customers, are you getting people that will come back for every new one that you publish?

You like, you do the math and you're like you guys, since we started and that's going through all the different versions of the journal, you do the maths and you're like guys in that time, you've missed like 30 days, you've just been journaling every day non stop.

So it's, it's really helpful that we do have people come through and, and repeat customers and they're always the ones that we want to speak to the most because sometimes you can make a change that you think is positive and actually that could be the thing that, that they like the most about the product and it's, it's put them off.

So as well as that, I think it's sort of from a business perspective quite vital for us because most of our customers come in that sort of New Year new Me rush. That's when people are sort of thinking about that, that Transformation tends to be like the majority.

So across sort of December and January, that's when it's busiest and then it's a six month product. We hope that people stay consistent and then that helps us out massively in the summer months where people are naturally a little bit more busy.

But the repeat customers sort of come in there and keep us afloat for the summer, ready for when people are going back to school and then it starts getting busy again.

That's brilliant. And I'm assuming though people can buy the journals any time of the year.

So if someone's listening when we release this, it's never, it's never too late.

Yeah. I personally don't like the New Year new me. I think, I don't think you should put off until January to try and do stuff.

You could be delaying your goals by like say you go to March. Oh yeah, I'll just wait until January 1st. You're putting off your goals by such an absurd amount of time.

I don't think you need to wait for timing or the perfect excuse. I think like the best time to start is now. So I think, yeah, I always encourage people to get involved. They can do it any year, any time of the year.

And even if you're about to go on a two week holiday, they're undated so you can journal for a week, take, take the holiday off and then get back into it when you're, when you're back from, from your holidays.

Well, that's really useful to know. Thank you. And I'm totally with you. I'm not up for the New year new me thing anyway. I think you can have goals at any time and you should have goals.

All the time for sure.

And while we're on this, how I think that your messaging is really, really strong. When I look at your website it's really clear what you're trying to do. So how did you approach how you would brand and position your products?

Because you mentioned at the outset that you didn't see anything that was that I think you said, you know, for people like you and your brother think you couldn't find journals that you were looking for, has that influenced how you, how you approach branding your own products?

Yes. Thank you for the kind words. I think I'm sort of, we're quite critical of where we are. I know it's improved massively.

I think a lot of the branding we, we kind of just try and speak to speak to ourselves. I think earlier on in the business we sort of fell into the trap of Trying to be everything for everyone.

And now we're quite, quite clear on who we're trying to speak to and who it resonates most with.

So I think it's sort of a mixture of speaking to ourselves and then mixing that with our sort of main demographic which actually is quite fun because it's nothing like us.

Most of our customers tend to be sort of 25 to 50 year old women, which is like a little bit different to what we are as a, as a demographic, as co founders. So the, in terms of like the actual branding and stuff like that, we're going through a bit of a journey at the moment.

So where we've made a big investment with like a really talented designer. So we're really excited now to go through the process sort of a little bit more professionally.

So we'll be, we'll be doing a build in public on, on social.

So if anyone's interested in sort of how that plays out, you can find us at Evolve Journey on Socials and then you'll see the actual process that we're going to go through with our, with our current sort of like rebrand and journal redesign as well.

Well, that is really exciting. Thank you. And we'll link to all of your socials in the show notes. People can find you really easily.

And coming back to your demographics, did that surprise you? The demo, your main customer demographic. But it sounded like at the outset you were looking for a journal that would work for you and your brother.

And as you say that your main demographic of customers are very different to you. Was that a surprise or not?

It was a complete shock to be honest.

We thought we would sort of aim at ourselves, attract people pretty similar to ourselves and then just like overwhelmingly that just wasn't the, wasn't the case. So.

But when, when we speak to those customers, the, the reason that they like us is because it's more of a pragmatic, not fluffy, not airy fairy approach. Like there's no sort of manifestation and stuff like that in there.

It's a very practical approach to journaling which I think is, is lacking sometimes within the, within the journals journaling space. So you almost get the people that are looking for something that's like a little bit less girly that comes in.

So it ended up working in our favor and cutting out sort of like our own little niche within the journaling market.

Well, that's brilliant and I think it makes total sense because you're right. I mean I'm sure we've all seen and used lots of journals. And so yeah, and some of them are less, let's say less practical than others.

And depending what type of person you were like I'm the sort of person who I like everything to be quite straightforward. Put it like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

So you mentioned that was a surprise. Have you had any other surprising moments since launching? So any feedback you didn't expect or maybe something you've learned?

We did have. What. I brought this along as well just to show you we had a surprising moment. It was a bit of a clanger. It wasn't, it wasn't very good.

So we had this box, open it up. This was to. To ship the, the products out in. It's got like a nice message in there. We thought that'd be really cool. People can.

We'll ship this in in that open up, be a nice unboxing experience, be a shareable moment. And ordered again quite a lot of these and then they turned up and this. Any, any of the journals that are a lighter color.

There's only one dark color, it's like black journal. So this like cream journal turned up and the ink had just completely rubbed off from, from the boxes onto all of the products.

So that was definitely a surprising moment of like, okay, we're gonna have to put on our like resilient hats here, come up with a few different solutions and ways around that. So yeah, I guess that's. I don't know if it's necessarily a cautionary tale, but something that was you definitely wasn't going to plan.

So that was a surprising moment. And then I think more, a more positive one I guess is just around some of the transformations that we've seen from people.

Um, and it's sort of, it's quite a mental feeling to have something that we created with our own minds then be transforming someone's life.

And then if you think about someone's life being transformed like that and the knock on effect that that could have, so you transform a mum or dad's life or whatever and then the impact that that has on their kids, their friends, their families that like how they show up at work in their communities and just sort of da da da da da da. It just keeps on, keeps on going.

So we like to sort of reflect on the like the positive impact that we can have by helping someone transform their life. Even if it's you know, just a small change in their mindset or a new habit that helps them live a bit healthier and happier.

I think that's like the special thing about, about what we do.

Thank you for sharing. And I think the benefit that someone has from using your product never gets sold, does it?

Like I'm sure you could hear that hundreds of thousands of times. It just never gets old. That's just the most brilliant feeling.

Yeah, exactly. It's, yeah, you get quite addicted to it.

It's such a, such a rush when you, when you see that email pop up and you've like, it's a customer and they've got like a personal story and they just wanted to reach out and, or you know, it's just someone leaves a review on the site and says some nice words that genuinely makes our day. We like read, read every single one of them. So yeah, it's one of the better feelings in running the whole business I have to say.

And I guess that's one of the reasons you're doing it as well, to make an impact to people. So it's brilliant to have that firsthand feedback that you are doing what you set out to.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's sort of like the next evolution of the business.

So we created the journals and some sort of supplementary products around there but one of the things that we've enjoyed the most and sort of got the most out of is having those like one to one calls with customers and stuff like that.

So we're at the moment in the process of creating an accountability community to sort of wrap around the journal to be sort of a support structure for people.

So they'll, they'll identify their main goal, they'll have the daily journal system and then they'll have the online elements which will be like, you know, personal weekly check ins and co working sessions and group calls and stuff like that.

So really trying to build a community of like minded people that are granted all going to be on very different missions but sort of knowing that you're not in it alone because it can be quite lonely when you go on sort of a journey of personal development and you've got all your mates going like oh what you're not having a pint? Oh you're not, you're not coming out and people sort of ostracizing you a little bit for some of the positive changes that you're making.

So I think having a, having a community of people that are, you know, trying to get more clarity on where they want to go and working, working together to achieve those things will hopefully be quite powerful I think.

So it's amazing. I was going to ask what you had, you know, what you had coming up for the brand. So that's amazing.

And I think you're right that there's about having a community of people who will have similar goals, even if their goals look completely different. I think just having goals, because I know that I'm in a community, very similar community of people who, you know, want to do big things.

And just having people around you who have the same outlook and also want, you know, to achieve things, I think it really helps you believe that it's much more achievable, keeps you accountable. I think it's a great thing to do. And I think I look at. I can't think of examples of my head, actually.

I can think of one brand that create a community, and I think that's such a powerful thing to do. And people then become so loyal to that brand because it's more than just the products.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think it's. It's going to be exciting because talking about sort of like the.

The product development side of things, we kind of really want it to be shaped by the people that join. So I think it should be, like, designed by them and for them.

Like, we've got a cool idea of sort of the stuff that we found helpful because it was kind of like born out of, like, you know, how come we are so consistent at journaling and how. How are we sort of achieving our goals in this way? And a lot of it is because me and Sam hold each other accountable.

We're speaking to each other every week. We. We have all these meetings and we're making sort of the.

The things that we're doing and growing the business, like fun and enjoyable rather than just like a slog. And we're like, deferring our happiness to when we hit the goal.

Instead, we're sort of having this, like, weekly engagement that just helps make the journey so much easier. So hopefully we can sort of bring. Bring people together like you say, and chase some cool stuff together.

I think it's really exciting. Now, as you mentioned, Sam, I do have to ask you, how have you found working with your brother?

And do you have advice for anyone, El, who's thinking of working with a family member or a friend? So anything maybe that you've learned since working together?

Yes, it's a good question. I think we. We're very lucky in that we were like, good mates when we went into it. We're both very relaxed as well. And it's. It's so.

It's not like we're fighting and getting at each other. And I think we've got a nice combination of. We had it just this week. We got something back from the designer.

There's different options that we need to look at. And then it's just like both of us just agree before we've even discussed which option we like the most.

And we're kind of just quite synced up with the way we see things, but with a nice blend of, like, we're happy to have, like, those challenging conversations and basically play devil's advocate to make sure that we're sort of like, not getting, like, sucked into just like group think and going into it. So, yeah, I've, I've, I've loved it. It's kept me close and made me even closer with, like, my brother, which is really, really cool.

I think we've both definitely had our sort of, like, lows within the business in terms of, like, you know, maybe a drop in. In resilience and feeling like, you know, this is like, so hard. Can we do this self doubt and all of that sort of stuff.

And generally it seems to be that, like, one of us will pull the other one up. So I think it would. Yeah, I, I would. I would be curious to see how I would have done on my own. I think I would have.

Would have quit by now and not had the, the confidence to keep on pushing. So, yeah, it's been, it's been really fun for us.

Well, that's brilliant. And do you have defined roles? Do you each have things that you do or is there a bit more overlap?

Yeah, we've, we've definitely, like, over. Over the years, sort of come to realize sort of where different skill sets lie.

So Sam sits much more on sort of like the, the website, creative ads side of things. And then we sort of both overlap when it comes to new product development.

And then I sort of handle some of the, yeah, logistics and like, like finance and stuff like that. So it's sort of. We.

We sort of blend it and then sometimes it will just be, you know, wearing a couple of different hats, depending on who's got a bit of capacity and stuff like that. So.

And do you have any advice when it comes to working with a family member? Is there anything you think that's worth people thinking about or worth knowing before sort of entering into it?

Yeah.

I mean, my advice, if, if I was working with anyone else other than my brother, just because I'd, like, trust him so much, would be, you know, make sure that you're completely upfront with your roles and your Responsibilities, make sure that your end goals are aligned because even if they're slightly misaligned and you, you want slightly different things over time. I think it's almost like train tracks that, like, slightly off.

Like if, if you go a few years down the line, you could end up in completely different, different areas and, you know, one person wants one thing and it's quite, quite challenging if you've got two people who are like leaders in a business who have like a different mindset or a different, you know, dream for the business. So, yeah, I think we've been quite lucky in that we've been pretty, pretty aligned from the beginning of where, where we want to go.

That's really useful. Thank you.

You'd hope as well, if you were going to go into business with someone that you would be quite aligned at the outset, because I think if you weren't. I mean, I can definitely, I won't name them, but I can think of a lot of people right now that I definitely wouldn't go into business with.

I like them very much. Yeah, that just wouldn't work. So hopefully anyone considering it already has the. Yeah.

Already has a feeling that it could be successful because I do think you get. You have a sense for these things.

Yeah, for sure.

And I mean, like, you might have, like, really complementary skills, great experience, get on well together, but you might have a completely different, like, perception of how work should be done and what work is and then even something small like that, then you're, you're misaligned and it could, could lead to. Yeah, troubles. Troubles down the line.

So, yeah, I would, I would choose wisely, but I wouldn't necessarily be put off by some of the potential downsides of, of being in, in a partnership with someone. Because, you know, having. Having just two people brings, brings so much and I think it can be a little bit of a lonely, lonely journey without.

So, yeah, I can definitely see the positives. Just coming back to what you were saying before about how when one of you is feeling a bit down, you've got someone to lift you up.

When you're on your own, that can be a lot harder if you don't have someone there to lift you up, because that involves you reaching out to somebody, which we're not all inclined to do. So I think just knowing you've got someone else alongside must be really reassuring.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's a. Yes. Big bonus.

So a few, just a few more questions before we finish, if that's okay.

And then in terms of like getting a bit like tactical, I think one of the main things that we've just sort of like been trying to solve to make the business more viable and more scalable so that we can, you know, both, both get out of it.

What, what we need is basically to, to look at like if you're, if you're starting that business, what is the potential like customer lifetime value that you can, that you can get from people and what are things that you can do to, to maximize it?

Because I think where, where we've sort of like fallen down up until, up until this point is like getting, getting the customers in and then we just have that big long break of them journaling for six months and then, you know, we don't, we don't have too many opportunities to speak to them and then, and then we hope that, hope that they come back.

Whereas, you know, if we'd sort of designed the whole business from the start, maybe we would have been community led, we would have people in there engaged and each customer that came in would stay because the products are great, because they're getting things, things out of it.

So that would be sort of like my, my advice to myself is just design the business around having, having as much like customer lifetime value as possible.

No, that's great advice, but I'd also say that in case, I'm sure you're not giving yourself a hard time, but we also have to remember that you don't know what you don't know.

And I think until you actually have something out there and you can see how people use it, how they engage with it, how they engage with you, what feedback they have, it's actually quite hard to think that far ahead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

I think one of the, in terms of like the things that we've learned as we've been going with developing new things is sort of moving away from almost like a waterfall approach to a more agile approach from, as in, instead of like, from like tech development, instead of working for 12 months to create a piece of software and then going, here you go, do you like it, it's basically doing small little releases, asking the customers for feedback, learning from the feedback, iterating, and then, and then going like that. So we've tried to sort of adopt that, that new mindset recently.

So instead of, you know, just surveying a couple of people and then, and then launching, we're testing ideas with different wait lists, seeing what the appetite is for people to come into the wait list, getting feedback from them, and then using that to refine the offer and then hopefully launch in a small way, learn from the customers, and then keep on iterating and growing. So sort of taking that approach rather than the trying to think what people will think and feel is the sort of level up that we've made recently.

That makes a lot of sense. Okay, I have one final question for you, and it's a question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast.

What would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators?

Number one advice of a product creators. What I'll have to do is get your advice because I know you're, you're an expert on it.

So once I've answered, answered, I'd love to hear what your advice would be for us.

But I actually think it's quite similar to what I just said there in terms of, I think there's lots of ways that you can test ideas with very little investment. So if you're just starting out and you've got the idea, don't be so worried that someone's gonna like steal your idea from you.

It's put the idea out there.

Maybe it's a wait list, maybe it's a survey talking to friends and family and, and try and get the, the validity of the idea and then keep on moving from there.

If, if you're more established and you've got a list of email subscribers and stuff like that, that's just a gold mine of data that can give you live feedback on what you're going to do before you're going to do it and helps you get a little bit of excitement around there. And people, I think generally the feedback that we've had, the people that have helped us improve the product, then become superfans.

It's kind of like that IKEA effect of, you know, you build the wardrobe and you like the wardrobe more than one that you just bought that was pre built because your, your sweat and tears went into it. So that would, yeah, that would be my advice. Just speak to your customers and it doesn't need to be an expensive or cumbersome.

That would be What I would recommend.

That's brilliant advice. Thank you.

Any advice for us from. From your side?

Oh, do you know what? No one's ever asked me this before. How exciting. I asked. I've asked this question for hundreds of times. No one's ever asked me.

I think my advice would change based on, if I'm really honest, based on the day and, you know, who I've been interacting with, who I've been speaking with. But I'm going to give some advice that I gave someone this morning, which is that you don't have to be the expert in everything.

And actually, there's a lot to be said for bringing in expert help for the areas that are not in your expertise. So I was giving the example this morning about accounting. So I am. That's not something I'm. I'm sure I could get.

I could work out my numbers, I'm sure I could work out how to do my tax return.

But is it worth me spending the time and the effort to do a, you know, an okay job when I could just pay someone to do it really well and give me the peace of mind that it's done properly, free up my time to do the things that I, you know, I am an expert in. And I think that sometimes for newer businesses, it can be really hard to let go of things.

It can be really hard when you're used to controlling everything and having, you know, doing all the jobs and. And of course, let's face it, there's also a cost implication as well. But I think the sooner you can start to go, okay, I don't like this.

I'm not good at this. Someone else could do this better and start to hand things off.

I think that really can be the point in which you can start to grow because you're not spreading yourself too thin and you're not wasting the time and the mental energy as well on the things that perhaps, you know, just aren't for you.

Yeah, I think it's.

Personally, I find it so satisfying if, if it's a case of, like you said, you don't like it and you're not good at it, if it's those two things and you can afford to outsource it, it's so satisfying.

The, the hours, the days that you can pour into something and you know that you're doing a bad job and you don't enjoy it is just, you know, not worth spending. Spending your energy as long as you can afford it.

It's like, focus on the things that are going to Move the needle in the business, hope that you enjoy them, but if not, then learn to enjoy them because they're the things that have, have the biggest sort of outsized returns and then where you can go with experts. So that's pretty much what we've been doing as we've been going through the years here.

It's like you reflect back on it and we've basically just been able to pay for better experts as we go. So that's where the evolution of the brand and the product development has come from, alongside the customer feedback.

It's sort of like they've, they've met in the, in the middle.

That's why we're so sort of excited about this, like, next chapter with the BRI brand, the journal redesign and the online online community that we're, that we're launching.

Makes a lot of sense because I think when we start out, I don't know if this was your experience, but I know when I first started my first business, I built my own website. I did. That's just one example. I did every. I did my own branding, I did my own logo on Canva. Everything was me.

And when you get to the position where you can say, okay, I can pay someone to do this, you're already up leveling just by bringing in someone who's got expertise in that area. And I think that's a really exciting way for your brand to grow.

And then, as you say, you can look back at where you've come from and you can see real progress.

Yeah, exactly. And I think especially within, like, E commerce, it's the most like, humbling thing because you can see the data in so many different ways.

You can see the live feedback on an hourly, daily, monthly basis. So.

And especially during the like, quiet summer months for us, that, that like, humbling process has just like forced us, forced us into just continuous, continuously improving things. It's like when you, when you sit still and like accept that you've, you've done a, done a good job and we'll just leave it there.

That's when like, you can start seeing in the numbers that things sort of like start stagnating.

So I guess, yeah, it's just keeping, keeping things fresh and always looking at things with the eye to how they could be improved and which things are going to be the most worthwhile, your investments, because you can probably only afford to make a few bets, big bets per year. So which changes are the ones that are going to be the ones most worthwhile?

Definitely. And it's Always. And it can be hard to know what those things are, but I feel like usually you've got a pretty good idea.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's either those that are going to bring the biggest amount of change, or we try and find what's the thing that's blocking us and try and remove that and then keep on going that way.

That makes sense. For me, it's mainly about time, I'll be honest, because I think it's.

Obviously, I run a service, not a product, so for me, time is like my most important.

So if I see any opportunity to save time, whether that's by outsourcing or just making something easier or not doing anything, something anymore, that's. Yeah, that's always my main driver for change.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Well, thank you so, so much for your time. Thank you for everything you've shared. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Good to see you today, Vicky.

You too. Thank you so much for listening. Right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the Fullback catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickyweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.