The Art of Unboxing: Packaging Insights from Dane Whitehurst, Burgopak

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Today on the podcast I'm speaking to Dane Whitehurst, the creative director of Burgopak. Burgopak is an award winning packaging design and production company with over 20 years in the making.

They combine strategic, creative and sustainable insights into our into their work to translate brand values into powerful, memorable and responsible product unboxing experiences. We had a great conversation about packaging. I know I spoke about packaging on the Compass on the podcast before, but this was slightly different.

Dane and his company look at packaging slightly differently. He actually showed me some brilliant examples while we were recording.

So if you are listening to this rather than watching, I suggest you go to YouTube and watch the episode as that will really bring some of what Dane talks about to life. So we covered all kinds of aspects. We talked about unboxing, the importance of that experience, how your packaging reflects your brand.

We talked about sustainability, how to price your packaging. And also his number one piece of advice is something I haven't heard anyone speak about when we talk about packaging.

So I'm not going to give you a spoiler. All I'm going to say is please listen to this episode with Dane. I hope you enjoy it. And here's Dane. So hi Dane, thank you so much for being here.

Hi Vicki, it's really nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.

So can we please start with you? Give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you do.

Yeah, sure. So obviously my name is Dane Whitehurst.

I'm the creative director at a company called Burgopak and I guess Burgopak are kind of an interesting company. So we work in packaging for lots of different brands, but we're set up in kind of quite an interesting way.

So we're predominantly kind of a design studio.

We spend lots of time developing interesting types of packaging, particularly focusing on unboxing experiences and the kind of user experience of packaging. And we also produce a lot of what we design as well.

So we're kind of this, kind of, we occupy this space between, you know, I guess the design and the kind of brand side of packaging and also the manufacturing side as well. We kind of act as kind of a bridge in the middle, if that makes sense.

In terms of myself, I come from a kind of product design and industrial design background. So I trained in both of those.

And then I bounced around some kind of fairly uninspiring roles in print for a few years for various different companies.

And then I got the opportunity to kind of interview for this really interesting company that, you know, in honesty, packaging was never really on my radar. You know, I started off, I wanted to design furniture and lighting and, and things like that. And. And then I came across Burgopak and the way.

It's one of those things when a company takes something that's kind of relatively normal and I don't know, maybe kind of uninspiring and, and kind of flips it on its head and, you know, have a. Has a completely different approach and kind of, I feel like we kind of breathe magic into that world in some way. And I'll show you some examples.

I've got a little box of tricks, but I think that will kind of bring to life some of what I'm.

Saying, if that helps, that really helps us amaze. I'm so excited to see what you've brought. So if anyone is listening to this podcast, please do go over to YouTube and watch it.

Otherwise you are going to miss out. I would love to talk a little bit. You've. You really piqued my interest in Burgopak and how you're different.

I'd love to talk a little bit more about how. How are you different to other packaging companies?

You've mentioned it a little bit in terms of you do the end to end from the design right through to the manufacturing. What else do you think makes you different and stand out a bit?

So I think, I mean, I'm just going to show you an example first.

Because I'd love that.

It kind of brings to life what we do. So I, I think, like I said, we are kind of really interested in the kind of the unboxing of products.

I think there's a couple of reasons why we're interested in that and we can kind of, we can dig down into that in a bit more detail. But, you know, really it's about creating, I think, you know, really an experience, a brand experience around products.

So this, this is one of our, one of our packs. So, um, this is just one design. You pull one side and the other side ejects kind of automatically.

So it just does something that's just a little bit unusual, a little bit unexpected.

And you know, it's not just your kind of, your normal kind of brown Amazon box or you know, kind of tuck carton, which much of the industry is, seems to kind of gravitate around. It's all about efficiency and, you know, and that sort of thing.

And I think we obviously think about those things, but we focus much more on the customer experience and the journey that they might go through. And, you know, I guess bringing brands to life through packaging. So in terms of, I suppose, what makes us different?

So, you know, our DNA has always been in kind of developing, you know, different types of packaging, different ways of opening things, you know, mechanisms and cardboard engineering and things like that. That's always been kind of our heritage.

And what we basically do is create those designs and then we file intellectual property on those in the way of patents and design registrations and things like that to give us sort of, you know, I guess, a competitive advantage. And then we basically, our model is we work kind of like a product company.

So then we take those to the market and we help customize, you know, the designs that we've created for specific brands, if that makes sense. And so I guess, why do we do that?

I mean, obviously there's lots of different reasons, but I think one that I think is quite topical now is the idea of dopamine. I think we, you know, we live. I think we live in a world now where we kind of. I think a dopamine kind of trigger is.

Is almost kind of encoded in our everyday expectation of life. People are always kind of like chasing this, I don't know, just this. This dopamine kick, I suppose, and we use social media a lot for it.

But actually we also know, through a lot of work with kind of neuroscientists, not. Not our work personally. But the surprising and delightful experiences can elicit, basically, they.

It lights up the kind of pleasure centers of the brain and elicits quite a big dopamine response. So the kind of experiences that we. That we build into our packaging does a similar thing.

And we feel like there's probably no better time to elicit that kind of response than when you're meeting a product the first time.

And so, you know, those are the things, those kind of unexpected, interesting stuff, kind of, I'll hold up a few as we kind of go through, but this, this is another one. And it's just like, just kind of build something that you kind of wouldn't expect. And I think that's kind of hugely powerful in brand building.

So I guess that's the one side of it. I think a lot of people kind of, you know, talk about it like the wow factor or something like that.

So it's, it's wrapping a brand around product experience.

But there's also lots of other things that we do in the background as well into and I know we'll get into that in terms of, you know, sustainability and manufacturing and making sure that things cost, you know, the right price. So I think that's hopefully in a very elongated way answers your question.

No, that was great, thank you. And I've got so many follow up questions and it's really great. Thank you for having those examples to see as well.

And you're right, there is something really, I'm going to say delightful because it is delightful when you buy something and you open the packaging and it's different. It's not just a box because so much of what we receive comes in a box or a bag.

It's so nice when you get some packaging that's a bit clever or like you say, unexpected. As a consumer, I definitely love that. So let's actually talk a little bit, if that's okay, about unboxing.

So what in your opinion makes a great unboxing experience? What are some of the things we could be thinking about?

Well, I think Rory Sutherland puts it really nicely when he says packaging is often the first point a product becomes a brand for most people. You know, it might be the first time you've ever had any experience of that particular brand.

And so actually the value of packaging and curating that experience is super important. I talk about Apple packaging quite a lot and I kind of have this like love, hate relationship with Apple packaging.

I love it because like, it's quite accessible in terms of understanding what makes packaging good as, as actually like a physical box. You know, the way that, you know, the lid slides off and everything's kind of neatly ordered inside.

But I dislike it because everyone asked me to kind of recreate it for different things and it doesn't, it's not always appropriate, but it's, it's certainly a good place to start. So I guess the work we do is largely about, you know, developing, you know, the physical box, the structure.

But I think what really, truly makes a good unboxing is telling the right story about the brand. And that's not obviously you're going to, you'll be looking at creating content, you know, the things that are written and communicated on the box.

But actually the box as a physical object itself actually tells its own story.

It's a bit like 80% of the way that we communicate is non verbal in our Expressions and the way that we hold ourselves more so than actually the words that we use to articulate our ideas. And I think packaging is similar, so a lot of it is kind of subconscious.

The material that we use, how big or small the box is, the different print finishes, the textures, and the tactile quality of the box, the way that it opens can tell a really different story about the product inside. I just wanted to maybe show an example.

So I've got two boxes and they use a roughly similar mechanism inside, except the way, the way that they make you feel is, is very different. So this is, this is one for Greg. So I'm just holding up and it's kind of, it sort of extends out and it's kind of.

This is quite funny, but it's like one of those kind of sausage rolls coming out of a, out of a packet. And it's. And it's really great.

And it works really well for that brand because it, it kind of tells the story so much of their product and how they position themselves, but incredibly, you know, completely differently. In. With a similar mechanism, we can tell a totally different story. So, you know, the, the material is different, the color's different, the.

We use a kind of a hot foil stamp. We're using. We're kind of really dialing up the luxury cues. So, you know, kind of a textured ribbon.

And then, you know, as you open it out, it feels very different. We're curating a very different brand experience.

And it's just, you know, it's an attention to the different details that tell a different story, if that makes sense. So I would say, like, storytelling is, is a massive one. It's super important.

And I think again, sort of going back to the value of that, I think a lot. And generally, you know, the, the value of a good unboxing experience.

I think if you want, if you Google unboxing video right now, you get over like 250 million hits on Google, which I think tells a story in its own right about how much people care about this stuff. And it's obviously when, when people unbox something or they take something out of the box, it's very much about the product.

But, you know, if you think about the packaging, that is the frame to the product that tells you how to feel in many respects about the product. And everything to do with that is sort of decoded subconsciously by, by the user.

And so I think, you know, the, the packaging is an important prop in that storytelling process.

That makes sense. Thank you. I guess it's about telling a story. I mean I really like the Greg's example you showed me because that was really unexpected.

Wasn't what expected to come out of not. I don't know what I expected but that was a surprise that was quite nice.

I mean do we always have to be thinking about what's unexpected and surprising people or does that very much dependent on, on your brand?

I think it's dependent on the brand and I think that the way that you surprise people is different for different brands. I say it's not necessarily all about surprise.

I think it's always nice to exceed people's expectations and whether that's surprising or not is not maybe the most relevant thing.

But I think it's always nice when you, when you find something that, that you, you weren't necessarily expecting or that something is different or novel. I think those things sort of are more memorable than anything else. And I think actually that's a big part of the work that we do.

And actually the, our kind of mission almost is to kind of use packaging as a way to basically stop people forgetting or ignoring your brand. Right. Like it's where we can create something that's engaging and memorable. And you know, it's, it works in, in two ways.

It, it works for the person in that moment but actually it really works a lot on social media as well.

So something that's being used a lot now is, you know, I kind of mentioned the unboxing video, but lots of people are kind of showing products on social media and creating content around that which is basically free permission based marketing to anyone that's, you know, anyone that's basically putting a product out there. And so sometimes we get briefs and it, and they're literally like just build me a social media weapon.

Like I want something that is gonna bring my product to life and that people are gonna share all over the place because it's just really interesting and exciting and that's kind of, you know, the, the main thread of the brief if you like.

I think that makes a lot of sense because you're right, it's sometimes, especially if you're buying on a third party marketplace, why work with Amazon sellers? You're buying on a marketplace like that the brand might not necessarily be at the forefront of your mind when you're purchasing.

So what's great is that when you receive a product, even if it's coming in this brown box, that what's inside that gives you a really good idea of who the brand is because then you're going to Remember them?

Yeah, yeah, that. That's it. It's not.

I think the work that we do sometimes some, you know, some of these mechanisms are designed to work in a retail environment, and that does help some, you know, with. With things like gift cards and stuff like that.

People are interacting with the packaging in the physical world, and then that does sometimes help to leverage a sale. But I think it's almost like actually almost more valuable is reinforcing the.

The kind of brand when the person's already made the decision to purchase it and then they receive the product and they open it. Like, wow, that is not what I was expecting. And that is pretty awesome. And actually I'm going to.

I want to tell people about it because it's not something they've seen before. It's unusual and different. And I think, you know, to. Yeah, the first point is it's rewarding the customer.

They feel good about the product, so much so that they're willing to share it. And maybe that. That content that they've shared may leverage more sales.

That makes a lot of sense. So. So what are some of the key elements involved in creating a great piece of packaging and something that is memorable?

So thinking beyond the unboxing, what are some of the other elements to consider?

I mean, I think there's.

A lot.

Of the questions that we ask. So we ask a lot of questions early on in the process because. And a lot of it is kind of targeted at brand. But obviously there's other things.

There's other elements that are really important as well. So, you know, a lot of planning, I think, is super important. So, like, how much should this packaging cost? Because budget is a huge thing.

You know, we can do almost anything and. But it has to work commercially.

And so it's sort of getting that piece right, understanding timings and things like that, and, you know, building a proper plan around when to deliver. Because I think packaging is something that always gets left to the. Or often gets left to the last minute.

And then it's really hard to hit all the goalposts in terms of creating something amazing at the right price in the right timescales, if that makes sense. So, you know, really good planning around what you're hoping to achieve and by when.

And then I think there's a lot of stuff in the background as well. So I think we touched on sort of sustainability, but I think is something personally that I think is incredibly important.

And there's some really good legislation coming out to sort of back up a lot of the stuff that we've been kind of designing around for years, but I also think it's coming in, becoming a much bigger part of brand. I think it's. It's becoming something that's expected by consumers, certainly younger demographics.

And I think it's something that brands are using to kind of communicate the good work that they're doing.

Or either they're using it, they're communicating more of the work that they're doing, or they're doing it quietly because I think they also feel that it's an important thing to take care of, particularly with packaging, which is inherently disposable.

Thank you. And I would. I'm going to come back to pricing in a moment, but I'd love to talk a little bit more about sustainability.

So what are some of the things that you're doing at Bird Group? Pack around sustainability? Because you mentioned you've been doing a lot of these things for a long time.

What, what kind of things are you factoring in?

So I think the first thing we started to do, and I would. And I would kind of say this for maybe any business, is I think we gave sustainability a name. We built a kind of internal task force within our team.

So we chatted to everyone in our company and we found people within different teams that were kind of really motivated by the idea of sustainability and we made them kind of champions and kind of created this sort of task force, if you like. And we called it Bright Green. Um, doesn't. The name's not really important. It's just we, we made it something that, that was official, if you like.

And it's something. We created something that we could set objectives around and, and, and kind of build timings for and sorry, meetings.

So we, we basically took the conversation away from the water cooler and we got a bunch of important people in the same room to start building a plan. So that was the first thing. And then I think from there we, we kind of looked at where can we make the biggest impact.

Like, and for us, you know, we're a fairly small company, so we're only like 25 or 30 people in a small studio in London. So our sort of.

Our own footprint is not huge, but actually the work that we do for all of our customers is, you know, has a, I guess, relatively much higher impact. We're producing a lot of packaging, sometimes, you know, millions of units for certain customers.

And so getting that, that bit right for us was the most important place to start. So I guess when you, when you think about packaging, there's a. There's a couple of things that are really important.

So first of all the material and I would say, you know, for any company it's important to sort of understand what is and what is okay, what is and what isn't okay to use. So you know, for us we work in, in paper because we think it's, it's probably the best option available in terms of the environment.

And we only use FSC certified board. So that is basically board that's come from a sustainably managed forest.

So the FSC are a really good organisation that go around and sort of audit the forestry pract.

So that will mean that, you know, for every tree that's harvested, a certain number will be replanted so that it ensures the longevity of those forests ultimately. So I think it's creating standards around that and then we've spent quite a bit of time optimizing the designs as much as possible.

So doing small things like curating the size and shape of some of our packaging to make sure that it fits as efficiently on a standard print sheet so there's, there's less wastage and that sort of thing and then like tightening sort of supply chains.

So you know, we have a sort of global, global supply chain which is great because it means that we can, you know, localize if it, you know, if appropriate and you know, so distance traveled and kind of trying to avoid things like air freight which are, you know, quite high, quite high CO2 intensity and that sort of thing. So it's, and then obviously the production of the, the packaging as well.

So the, they're all the, the kind of things that I think are quite important.

There's, there's also like lots of nuanced things around the use of, you know, certain print techniques and how much foil or you know, spot UV that you can use over the surfaces and things like that. But that's a lot of detail. But it's something that we kind of, you know, sort of build into the design process as well, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that does make sense. Thank you.

And do you have any advice for businesses listening who think that they'd like to make their packaging more sustainable, but perhaps they're not sure where to start. What are some of the sort of say, easy wins that they could be looking for?

I mean, I think I, what I would say is like working with the right partner is, is important because I guess you don't need to necessarily be an expert in the field, but it's definitely good to have someone there that's sort of got Your back.

You know, I think obviously there's quite a lot at the moment about over packaging making things, you know, bigger than, bigger than they appear, sort of to artificially increase the value. I think that sort. That's such an old trick and I think it sort of feels quite outdated. So that's, that would be an easy one.

But you know, having someone that can sort of guide you on, on the best materials because, you know, I kind of touched on, on fsc, but that's such a broad, that sort of broad thing.

You know, we spend quite a lot of time looking at actually individual paper mills and what they're kind of, how they're dealing with, the way that they use water, for example, or how much renewable energy they use and what's the subsequent carbon footprint per ton of, you know, that the paper that they produce.

And we guide people to those, you know, particular materials, particularly when they've got, you know, you know, a specific ESG target that they're trying to hit. And so I think getting, getting the right support and sort of understanding the basics.

Something that we created because we thought it was quite important was an LCA calculator.

So it's basically something that allows you to kind of calculate the carbon footprint of your packaging, which has been really helpful for us because it's allowed us to benchmark everything and then to be able to quantify the improvements. And I think that's something that's.

If you're, I think firstly it's something that's really helpful and really helps you to sort of tease out improvements. But it's also really helpful in sort of quantifying the, like, the improvements that small changes can make.

And I think one really nice example which I kind of wanted to show you was some work we did for Monzo, obviously the, the bank. So this was their, this was their kind of the old packaging, the old version of the packaging that we designed and produced for them.

So it's like, it's pretty efficient anyway. You know, it's, it's not sort of oversized, it's not, it's really nice, but it's not, I would say over packaged.

But when we looked a little closer, we realized that basically if we made their packaging just 7 millimeters smaller, so I'm holding up the new one in front of the old one. So it's really not much different. It doesn't really affect the customer experience in any way. It doesn't affect the perceived value of the packaging.

But we realized that we could fit 20% more on a Print sheet, which sounds kind of okay, but actually when we, when we looked at scale, I think for one, for one order we saved something like 1.3 tons of paper and around 2 tons of carbon. So just that small change, that 7 millimeters actually makes a huge difference.

And I think sometimes it's that, it's kind of, it's is looking at the small changes, like the little kind of marginal gains that you can make, but then also being able to quantify the real life impact to be able to sell that into to the stakeholders. Because you know, obviously it's a no brainer, like why wouldn't you.

And you know, especially if it's, you know, slightly cheaper as well because it's more efficient. It just makes a lot of sense all around.

Wow, that's incredible. Thank you for sharing that example because it's, I'm amazed at the amount paper saved by making such a small change.

Yeah, it's a, you know, as you push the volumes up, obviously things scale quite quickly and, and 20 is quite, quite a big number as well. But 7 millimeters really isn't and it, and it can be that simple.

Oftentimes it's more difficult and you have to kind of work harder for, you know, to leverage those improvements. But it, you know, it can just be a small thing.

It definitely sounds like working with someone who knows what they're doing is really important. How, and what about the manufacturing side?

So are, I'm, I don't, I don't want to assume, but would some manufacturers perhaps be more sustainable than have a bigger focus on sustainability than others? Is that a fair assumption?

Yeah, I would, I would say so. I mean just to kind of like. So I would say that the packaging world is kind of made up of a few different players.

So I think you've got like brand agencies and graphic kind of design agencies that create kind of the vision piece and the branding side of things.

Then I think you have, you know, packaging manufacturers that concentrate on, you know, engineering the packaging for efficiency and automation and that sort of thing. And then obviously there's players like paper mills and things like that. So the single biggest impact is actually the raw material.

So what material you're using and where it's, and where it comes from, that has a huge influence on the, on the overall picture. But obviously also where you're manufacturing and how far that patching packaging has to travel once it's been produced, if that makes sense.

So yeah, I think definitely different manufacturers have a different level of kind of awareness and engagement with Sustainability and certainly I think it's sort of a global thing as well, though, because I think some areas are just. Or some countries maybe have a more generally high carbon footprint because of the use of like, renewable energy and stuff like that.

In different countries that, that can have quite a. Make quite a big difference. But I think individual companies as well, particularly paper mills, have slightly different approaches.

You know, we work with some amazing partners that just put so much into using kind of, you know, bioenergy and renewable energy and the way that they treat the water and stuff like it's incredible the work that they do, but it's.

I think it's sort of digging down beneath the surface and taking time to find out exactly the activities that these different companies are doing that does take the time.

So if you can find a partner that can kind of help you and educate you and kind of guide you in the right direction, I think that's going to solve most of the problems.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

And one other thing I wanted to come back to, if that's okay, is when we were talking about the elements to make great packaging, one of the first things you spoke about was the cost of the packaging. And what you said interested me because you said, think about how much you want to spend. Often in my experience, people do it the other way around.

They think about the packaging they want and then they find out how much it's going to cost. Do you think it's better to come into it knowing what you're happy to spend on your packaging and how do you cost something like that?

I think it's, it's almost like a catch 22 and it's like the chicken and the egg thing. I think, I think it's important to have a, a number of. Some description.

Like I think you want to build a commercial framework around your product, right? Packaging is a very real cost.

And so it's sort of understanding what that value is and it might be different to different products and to different to different brands and the level of investment might be different. But I think it's good to have an idea of the number because ultimately it just saves a lot of time.

You know, it might be, you want, you want this, but you, but you can't afford. You can, you can afford a maybe lesser version of that. And I think it's one. If you have a number, it's helpful because you.

We can, for example, we could guide our customers on the type of materials they might be able to use, which kind of packaging format because some of these formats that I've shown have different costs attached to them. We can look at where it might be manufactured, what are the manufacturing volumes. All those things affect the final price.

And for us, in honesty, the way that we work, we. Our model starts generating revenue when we produce the packaging. We don't really make much from the actual design of the packaging itself.

So we've got to get the commercial bit right from our own perspective as well, because otherwise we're not gonna. We could do all this work.

We can design something amazing, but if it's too expensive or it doesn't quite hit the mark, the model is not going to generate revenue. So it's definitely sort of in our interest as well to. To kind of shape. Shape that and to kind of hit that commercial framework.

That's really useful. Thank you. And thank you so much for all that you've shared. I've got one final question before we finish, if that's okay.

And that is, what would your number one piece of advice be when it comes to packaging your products or thinking about your product packaging?

So I think we've kind of covered the working with the right partner thing. I think that's super important. I think the timing thing is really important.

I think people spend a lot of time developing their products and their brands, and I think packaging is sort of this thing that gets left till quite late in the process.

And I think it's easy to kind of, you know, now in a world that's largely digital, to forget that, you know, packaging is actually a physical product that, you know, that there might be lead time on the. On the material. You have to put production slots. You've got to make the thing, and then you may have to ship it somewhere.

So there's like, there's quite a time frame involved in actually producing something that's real and getting it to where it needs to be.

And I think it's always a shame when there's, you know, some really, like a really nice idea behind a project, but there's maybe just not the time to invest in, you know, the design development because, you know, we're. We have to go to production so quickly.

So I'd say, you know, set enough time to really think about it properly and to consider packaging as part of the product itself and the way that it's perceived. That would be my single biggest piece of advice.

And engage with companies that you feel are right for you and that are a good fit sooner rather than later, because it can't hurt if they say, come Back in six months, no one's lost anything.

That's brilliant advice. Thank you.

And I really liked what you said about considering the packaging as part of the product, because I think sometimes they can be seen as two separate things, and I think it's much more cohesive if you're thinking about it as a whole.

Yeah, yeah, I really do think so. I think.

And I think the value of marketing in terms of creating, you know, a really, you know, a good product, I think the good product part is the most important thing in firstly, you know, creating a good experience for your customers, but also in. In creating a. A strong brand as well. I think if. If you have a. If you have a crappy product, you're just.

You're going to spend lots of time telling people about something that's really not that good. Whereas I think if you've got a great product, people will share it and they will do the work for you.

That's brilliant. Thank you so much. So I'll put links where everyone can find you and the company in the show. Notes, please. Definitely.

And thank you again for taking part.

Yeah, thanks so much, Vicki. It's been great to chat.

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the Fullback catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.