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Ruth’s plan for the first year of business was to say yes to trying everything and see what worked.  We talk about the awards she’s entered (and won!) and the long-term benefits she’s still experiencing from them.  She also shares her story of sending products to Joe Wicks and what happened when he shared them on Instagram.

Listen in to hear Ruth share:

  • An introduction to her business and what she sells (1:19)
  • How having a child inspired her to start her business (1:44)
  • The importance of children understanding the World around them (5:14)
  • The (gungho!) first steps she took to get started (7:57)
  • Why just getting started can be a good thing – and a way to test your product idea (12:37)
  • How she got her first sales and the importance of involving your customers (13:45)
  • How and when she expanded her product range (16:50)
  • How (and why) she’s found a new printer, closer to home (19:08)
  • Some of the challenges around finding and working with suppliers in the UK (23:48)
  • How working with Chinese suppliers can be a positive experience and tips for getting it right (26:00)
  • How she manages the logistics around shipping and storing her products – and why it can be nice to do it yourself (28:29)
  • The awards the Little Black and White Book Project has won – and why she entered (32:37)
  • The (lasting) benefits of winning awards for your product (36:45)
  • What happened when Joe Wicks shared her products on Instagram (39:30)
  • Why she chooses to donate 25% of her profits (45:00)
  • What she loves about selling products (51:28)
  • Her top piece of advice for other product creators (54:16)

USEFUL RESOURCES:

Little Black and White Book Project website

Little Black and White Book Project on Twitter

Little Black and White Book Project on Facebook

Little Black and White Book Project on Instagram

Ruth Bradford on LinkedIn

LET’S CONNECT

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Transcript
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Welcome to the, bring your product ideas to life podcast,

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practical advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell

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your own physical products. Here's your host Vicki Weinberg.

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Hi, as always. Thank you so much for choosing to

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listen today. Today, we're going to be talking to Ruth

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Bradford who runs the little black and white book company.

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Ruth creates animal to black and white illustrations for babies,

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toddlers, and preschoolers to help early visual and brain development,

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as well as foster an early love for wildlife arranging

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through books, interactive flashcards prints and accessories. This is a

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fantastic conversation Ruth and I touch on lots of different

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things, including how and why she entered awards as part

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of her strategy for the first year, how she was

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recognized by Joe Wicks back in June this year, and

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the impact that had on her sales. We also talk

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about her vision and her why for her business and

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how that plays a part in all that she does.

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This is a really fantastic conversation. She had so much

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to share and I really hope you enjoy it. So

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hi Ruth. Thank you so much.

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Oh, thank you for having me.

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No problem. So could we start please by telling us

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about your business and you sell.

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So yeah, so I sell high contrast and animal illustrations

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for babies, toddlers and preschoolers, and they take the form

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of board books and story books and interactive flashcards prints,

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muslins, and anything that's really useful for parents really, but

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all in black and white.

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Fantastic. And so what, what inspired you to get started

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selling black and white products?

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son. We were actually living in Singapore and like a

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lot of first time parents, I learned about the benefits

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of black and white images that really helped stimulate early

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visual development in babies. So it helps them something they

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can actually see and interact with when the world is

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really blurry. And then that helps in turn improve, sort

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of stimulate the brain and improve brain development. And so

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I went off and searched some books that I could

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share with him. I was just really, really underwhelmed. I

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mean, partly it could be that I was living in

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Singapore, but even when I look on the internet, it

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was just, they were just quite basic. And there was

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just nothing that really caught my attention and that I

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would really enjoy sharing with him.

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I think so. And I'm a graphic designer I've been

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doing that for donkey's years since I graduated. And so

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I just thought, well, I could draw some of my

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own illustrations that we could share at home. And then

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I shared those in turn with some other new parents

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and the response was pretty amazing. And in my whole

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baby bubble, I could tell you start a business at

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that time with a newborn baby. And yeah, it just

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sort of spiraled from there really that there was a

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gap in the market for a high quality content of

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that kind, that wasn't no usual kind of kiddy stuff

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and that I could maybe animals that children at that

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age wouldn't normally have access to at all. And just

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hope to get them in their imaginations going in and

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help them fall in love with, with wildlife.

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That's amazing. So what were the first products then that

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you started out with?

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the range started with three board books and one set

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of flashcards. And I will, I did one for Asia

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cause that was where we were living. And we'd seen

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a lot of the wildlife in, in person and then

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Australia, because my in-laws lived down there and Africa, cause

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we'd been really lucky enough to go on Safari. So

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three places that in terms of wildlife, they kind of

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tick off all the big stuff everyone's heard of, but

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they're also places we'd visited and that were really special

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to us. And the flashcards were Asia as well. And

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would they, they wanted to do something that kind of,

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when you were frazzled parent and new, you think you

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should be talking to your baby because they respond to

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your voice and you want to Sue them or have

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something to say it's really hard when you're just totally

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frazzled to know what to do with them and say,

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the flashcards came about that.

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I didn't just want pictures to show them, which a

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lot of other flashcards do. I wanted something that you

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could read out on the back. So they fax them

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back. But then I also wanted them to last longer

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than the first few months. So by having the facts,

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it means that they're, they're really good for older children.

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So as they're learning their words and the names of

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the animals and things like that, and they actually have

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a little interaction, so you can get them thinking about

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similarities and differences between us and the natural world. And

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so they actually last from birth right up to this

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preschool and beyond, depending on children's interests so that although

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the board books came really naturally because it's just, we,

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I love reading. And I think books are really important

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from an early age.

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The flashcards were something that I got really excited about

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because they were just something different and a really easy

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tool that parents could take with them on the go

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cause they're super light and easy to transport. So they,

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that was the kind of core of the range.

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Wow. Is that's what you started out. Even did the

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books have words as well or the board books, just

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pictures

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That has pictures. I have the name of the animal

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and in the front they have a map to show

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where the animals come from. Cause I'm also really passionate

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about making sure children understand what animals live together. A

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lot of children's books are beautiful, but they kind of

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put pandas with tigers and lions and it's like, they

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don't all live together and they don't live in a

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jungle. I just find like it's quite confusing for children

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because I have arguments all the time about West of

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lives. And it's like, it's because he's read and seen

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scene in a book and it's like, that's not factually

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correct. And I think I just wildly, he grew up

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knowing where things lived or what kind of habitat they

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lived in. So yeah, so all of my books will

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always group animals together from where they come from and

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the map in the front, again, as they get older

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while obviously not as a newborn baby, but, but it

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just means it touches on those different development stages as

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they ask questions about the world.

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And they can just imagine where they might come from

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and the weather's like there and all those kinds of

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things.

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Yeah. And I imagine it was actually also quite good

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for parents because I think, you know, I'm not sure

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I know exactly where every single animal lives

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I actually did my, the story, but I did this

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year. I've had a few people parents will say, Oh,

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I can't even say some of the underworlds you've been

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looking them off and learning about them. And it's just

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brilliant. It's lovely that it's, it's surprising people and it's,

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it's nice to have design something. That's good for parents

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as well, because I think a lot of the kind

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of baby stuff is just mind numbing. And so it's

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nice that parents can look at it and go, this

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is, this is really nice to me to look at

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as well and that we share it together and it's

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not just passive.

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Yeah. And also I think now a lot of parents

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may be put off by buying products. If, you know,

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if you get a sense that it might be a

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bit annoying or a bit, you know, it doesn't look

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nice because obviously we're the ones buying them, not the

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children. So yeah, I guess, yeah. You do have to

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appeal to the parents as well.

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Yeah. And, and also I think not to be too

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shallow about it, but the Instagram generation of, you know,

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people want to be taking beautiful pictures of their Haynes.

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And so the crime particularly fits in so well with

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a beautiful nursery sentencing or, you know, I don't know

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a lovely outfit or whatever. Like people just love the

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aesthetic, I think. And I think black and white is

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such an easy one to, to team with anything really.

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And so yeah, helping parents feel soothed in their chaos

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is it's quite a nice feeling.

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Yes. It's lovely to have something beautiful to look at

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while you're feeding or whatever you're doing. Yeah. So can

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we just go back to the, when you got started

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and talk through some of the practical steps, if that's

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okay. So let's talk about how did you go from

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sort of creating these products, sharing them with your friends,

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what were the practical steps you then took to actually

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create the books and the flashcards, and we can take

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them together or separately, however you feel makes more sense.

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So I'll just caveat everything by saying I'm a real

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feat first gung ho kind of person. So I I'm

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really bad at sort of thinking ahead. And especially when

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it comes to the creative stuff, I kind of just

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get so carried away and excited that I, I kind

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of jump in and, and it's good and bad. Like

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I think it doesn't hold me back over procrastinate, but

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equally I'm probably not a really good example of that.

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But anyway, that aside I, what did I do first?

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So I actually created just some little paper that had

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a hard cover and, but paper pages, and they were

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just from a website that lets you upload, you know,

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can create little photo books, that kind of thing.

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So I, I just use one of those. I think

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it might've been blurb or something like that. And I

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just did, so I had the illustrations and I did

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a little prototypes and those, and that's what we use

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and that's what I gifted to some friends and things

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like that. And then obviously they're not very good for

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little fingers and you can't prop them up or anything

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like that. And so I was really keen to do

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the board books cause they're just so good from newborn

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and they last and they're really durable. And so then

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it was a case of just trying to find a

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printer. And again, it's just sort of quite the first,

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you just have to do a lot of searching on

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Google and send some emails. I was really lucky that

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I found somebody in Hong Kong because at the time

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it was obviously local to me being in Singapore that

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it wasn't, you know, it's not a huge leap to

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Hong Kong and they hit all my eco credentials.

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I was one thing they print with soy ink and

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they use make sure these forestry certified paper stock and

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all of that kind of stuff and recycled board and

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everything kind of hit those sort of credentials that I

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was looking for. And it was just really easy from

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there cause they would, they were super helpful. I explained

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that I, I don't actually have a print background. I

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used to work in website and things like that. So

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they walked me through it or I sent the artwork,

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they would send me proofs. They sent me, I actually

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ordered some real kind of prototypes from that point. And

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so it was a few hundred dollars. So it wasn't

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a loss of money, a few hundred dollars for the

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actual kind of real board books.

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So I could see what they were like and see

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the scale and everything like that, the graphics and the

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text and the same with the flashcards. I'd seen some

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flashcards that I really wanted to, I thought the quality

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was great and they actually printed those as well. So

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it was, it was, I already knew that they could

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do the good quality flashcards I was looking for. So

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see, I just, don't under samples who was really, really

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happy with, with the samples that they sent and then

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ordered a print run. The only downside of doing something

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like books, is that in order to get them margins,

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you have to order quite large. And it was, yeah.

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So I think I ended up ordering a thousand of

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everything to start with, which is huge when you haven't

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actually had any sales whatsoever, but you know, it's just

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one of those things that you can't have to weigh

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up.

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Is it better to just go for it and how

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you can solve it? Or is it better to, to

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go from minimum quantities, but have like very little profit

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start with? And so I dunno, it was just very

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personal to our circumstances is that we could just go

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for it. And we just went from a thousand to

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beach just to see what had happened at that beginning

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point. And then I tried a Kickstarter campaign, which was

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a massive flop because it turns out kickstart is really

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hard and you have to put a lot of work

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before you launch, which I didn't quite appreciate, but it

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was, it wasn't a complete disaster because within 24 hours

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of that failing, I'd actually set up my website and

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had, was taking pre-orders.

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And most of the people, because they all knew me

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anyway, people have backed me on Techstars to just came

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and placed a pre-order. And then, so I had a

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little bit of cash coming in and I think it

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was about a four or five month wait to get

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the stock. So how do all these people who very

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kindly kind of placed orders, but for four or five

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months out from getting the products, but yeah, it's kind

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of how it all spiraled, I guess at the beginning

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it was just trying to respond as quickly as possible.

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I definitely think there's something to be said for just

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jumping in and getting started because if you hadn't done

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that, you'd never would, you know, you never would know

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ever it would take off or not. So I do

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think, I do think that's actually a good thing. Obviously,

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like you say, you also need to make, you know,

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consider things, but I mean, yeah. I think I personally,

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I think that the getting started and doing something is

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the best way to test out whether you've got a

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viable product and taking pre-orders is, sounds like a fantastic

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idea. Because as you said, that gave you a little

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bit of money upfront to cover some of that order.

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Yeah. And I think a little bit of money coming

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in. Yeah. And it was proof of concept that people

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actually genuinely interested in it. I mean, it's nerve wracking

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because you think, Oh, well I hope they like it

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when they get it. But yeah, it was a proof

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of concept, a little bit of money coming in and

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something to talk about. So to build up the social

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media side of things and start getting the brand out

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there. Yeah. I mean, for me it worked like being

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kind of gung-ho and just going for it, it worked,

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but that's, that's my personality business plans and planning is

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not okay.

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Yeah. And I know if you're listening to this and

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that isn't your personality. That probably sounds terrifying. So yes,

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I'm not, I'm definitely not suggesting that everyone goes gung

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ho, but I do think there's something to be said

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for being brave and just taking that first step, at

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least. So coming back to those initial sales where they

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may need them, people that you knew in Singapore?

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No, actually not in Singapore. It's a few people in

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Singapore, but mainly back in the UK. Yeah. And actually

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we moved back to the UK before I got the

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stocks. So that complicated things a little bit further because

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I, I ended up, I think I still don't really

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know why I decided on this, but I split the

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stock. So part of it went to Singapore to friend's

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house. Most of it came to the UK and cause

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I, I felt that having some in Singapore, I hope

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to be a bit more established there before we left

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and I would maybe have some shops or something that

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would be taking them. And I didn't want to have

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to be sending stuff from the K that all kind

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of just didn't really work out at all.

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So there's still some stocks like my friends cupboard in

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Singapore, but most of it actually came to the UK.

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pretty much all the orders were were for UK. So

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my friends back here were people that had kind of

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heard about it through friends of friends and things like

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that. So it wasn't too much of a logistics nightmare

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to, to kind of get them out.

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Oh, that's good. And it sounds like you've already talking

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about them on Instagram before they're even ready. So I

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guess you were building more of awareness and more orders

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before the stock even arrived.

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Yes. Yeah. I think that's the key thing that if

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I was going to go back and do it again,

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I think I would put more effort into the whole

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kind of pre-launch. I was lucky that I got the

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pre-orders and I was lucky that I got a bit

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of a following, but I think the more work you

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can put in before you actually go live with the

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products is probably better. You know, the more you can

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involve people on that journey and fold them in the

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story and the product development and show them that the

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process, I think people really love that. Cause they're, they're

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very invested in you rather than just coming cold with

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a I've got this thing on. So you it's just

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a much nicer way of doing it. And so I

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did a bit of that. I hadn't appreciated just how

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much you probably need to do, to be honest.

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Yeah. That absolutely makes sense. And also from a practical

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point of view, there can be quite a bit of

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a lead time as you found out between placing your

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water and actually having the product ready to fulfill. So

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you might as well be using that time to build

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awareness because it actually is, there's only so much else

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you can be doing during those weeks or months or

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however long it takes.

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Yeah. And you don't really want to sort of just

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disappear off the radar, especially if you have taken pre-orders.

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Cause I think then people get nervous that you know,

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that you've taken the money and it might never materialize

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so that it's reassuring to your, your customer base and

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the people that follow you that yeah. There is stuff

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going on, you are working hard and it just, yeah.

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I'm all for transparency and sharing as much as possible

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bringing people along with you because I just think it

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just adds that kind of feel good facts about our

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brand.

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Yeah, definitely. And it's nice. It's sort of yeah. Feel

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that there's a person behind the brand and kind of

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know a bit of the story. Definitely think that's important.

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So what stage did you then expand your product range?

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I'd launched the first ones I had them ready for

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I think coming from Hong Kong, there is quite a

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lead time. So again, it's something that I've learned as

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I've gone along is that you have to really plan

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for that kind of product printing. So even though my

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printer was all tried and tested by that point, they're

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still minimum six to eight weeks before I'm going to

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get anything in person from sending them the artwork. So

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yes, it was October. I added the British book and

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oceans book, which was, again, really pre-orders on those. As

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soon as I knew that the order was definitely gonna

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arrive before Christmas, I was able to place pre-orders and

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it was, that was a pretty good Christmas for me

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because I think a lot of people wanted to add

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to the collection if they'd bought the year before.

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And then I also added flashcards for every book as

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well at that point. So there was yeah, set of

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flashcards that matched all of the books at that time.

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And then around that I was sort of adding little

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things like prints, you know, cause they're, they're very easy

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to do small runs. So I was trying to think

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of products that I could do a small run off

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quite cheaply just to bulk out the product range a

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little bit more and offer something that, you know, it's

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a nice gift. Or if somebody is already got the

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books, you know, it's another reason to come back to

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me and buy rather than it always just being this

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one thing that once you got it, you got it.

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You just don't need anything else.

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And also I just love that side of creating and

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product development. So, so it's just nice to have that

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to do in the meantime, once waiting for new books.

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So, so the range is sort of slowly, organically grown

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as I've had ideas and gone, Oh, I can do

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that. And that's quite cost efficient and I can try

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it and Oh, and I would love to do that.

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And, and the range has probably grown apart from the

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books and the flashcards, everything else is, is it's a

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lot easier to produce. It's a lot quicker and you

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can test it and just do small runs. So it's

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a nice way of kind of like I say, padding

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out the range.

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That's fantastic. So are you now, so you're still using

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the same printer in Hong Kong, is that right for

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your books and flashcards or have you moved

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Well? So I've had a bit of a disaster with

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that. Sadly, that the last shipment that I had was

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just not very good at all. And they, all of

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the, it's such a tiny thing, but I CA I

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can never send anything out. And that's, I think it's

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perfect. And a lot of the spines about 60% of

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the books, all the spines had a little Nick in

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them or, and so I had to sort of write

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off most of that and now they are replacing them

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they're on their way now. So keeping everything across that

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the, the new ones are going to be perfect, but

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it's just left me with boxes and boxes of stocks

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that I can't sell. And so three, my storybook that

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I write this year, I started working with a Bristol

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printer called Doveton press.

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And Matt at Doveton is amazing. And he has gone

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out and found me a new board book printer because

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he says that no one in the UK does it,

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which is a real challenge, but he's managed to find

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someone in Europe for me. But the best thing is

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that he's managing the whole process through Doveton. So I

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now have a bit of a buffer of somebody who

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really knows their stuff and is happy to deal directly

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with the printer, with what I need. And I'm hoping,

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again, I'm going to end up doubling up on stock,

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which is, I just hope I can sell it, but

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I've had to order because I just I've run out

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of quite a lot of the best sellers. So I've

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had to order some stock through, through this new printer

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who's in Poland.

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And while it's waiting for these replacements to come from

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Hong Kong. So it's, it's a very peculiar situation, but

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I don't think many people would find themselves in and

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I'm going to end up with stock idols, but I'm

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hoping that going forward, this new printer being closer to

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home and working through with sort of third party who

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is incredibly knowledgeable and can manage that whole process me

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is just going to make things a lot smoother and

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a lot easier.

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Oh, I'm so sorry you had that experience, but it's

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good that you found a solution.

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Yeah. And actually I'm because the books, the damaged books

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technically haven't cost me anything. Cause I hung them replaced.

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I've actually just been giving them away to charities and

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childcare providers. And I think this year has been a

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tough year. And so I just have a little application

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form on my website that people can apply and to

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say, if they would like to book donations or up

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to a hundred books, and they've been going off all

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around the country to hospitals and charities and childminders nurseries,

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anyone that can really make use for them and get

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kids interested in reading and books and things. So yeah,

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out of, out of a really bad thing where I've

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literally cried as I've eaten boxes and it's, it's a

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really lovely feeling to just be able to kind of

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flip that and go, actually, I'm just making those people

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smile now and it's clearing out my garage, which is

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quite

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Oh, a lovely thing to do. I'm so pleased. You

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managed to find something positive out of it. Yeah, that's

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fantastic. I'm also didn't realize there were no boards, but

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printers in the UK and that's really surprised me. So

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that's something else that I've learned today. Cause you would

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assume that be in a paper based product, that there

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would be lots of suppliers. So that's really interest.

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Yeah. I mean, I think I'm not a hundred percent

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sure whether it's that they're just aren't tool to have

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the equipment or whether it's so expensive, you just wouldn't

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do it unless it was a really small, tiny, like

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private run thing. It's certainly not to commercial scale and

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the margins that I need to make it work that

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yeah, there isn't anyone doing it. And I think because

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out in China they've been doing it so long and

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all the big publishing companies use out there, they have

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got a corner on that market. And so if you

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want to be able to print books domestically, it is

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a huge challenge to find somebody that is closer to

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home, like not in the UK, but at least Europe

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and managing that whole kind of order process and you

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know, language barriers with China, you've got time differences.

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You've got shipping costs, which again, environmentally is not, not

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particularly in line with what I'm wanting to do with

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my business. So yeah, it's, it's been challenging, but I

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I've been very, very lucky to meet Matt he's just

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done a lot of the hard work for me cause

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I was just hitting dead end after dead end.

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Yeah. Finding suppliers. Yeah. Can be tricky. And it's always

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good to have a recommendation as well that you know

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that this company, I guess, could you mention that you

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sell Muslins as well? So I'm assuming that's also a

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different supplier.

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Yeah. And that's, again, that's China. It's just really hard

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to find anyone in the UK. I sent off so

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many emails to manufacturers here and if they even bothered

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to reply, it was a no don't do that. It

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wasn't, they didn't even want a conversation about it. Or,

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you know, you'd say, well, we don't do it, but

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we could, we could look into it or you know,

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let's have a chat about it, nothing. It's just, it's

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such a few other people have said about manufacturing in

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the UK. It's just really hard to get foot in

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the door and get anyone to talk to you because

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you're so small compared to the people that are dealing

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with. But unless you're lucky and you get an introduction

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to somebody who's really interested in small business, most people

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just, they won't even entertain.

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It's really frustrating. And so yes, go look to China

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again, because my experience there is that they kind of

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call it, do enough to help. They really want to

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help and that they really want to petite your products.

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It's just really challenging because it's such a long way

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away. Can't always visit, you know, you're trusting what they're

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telling you. You're trusting what's on their websites. And yet

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it's really hard to do your due diligence. So it's,

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it's a really tricky position to be in. And I

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feel for anybody trying to put like develop a product

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in the UK because it's, it just hasn't, there are

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lots of hurdles and you can get past them. There's

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a lot of benefits. But for me, I think the

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type of products I want to produce, sadly, it's just

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really hard to do that here.

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Again, I'm really keen to try and find some deep

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place at times the, the Muslins, cause I'd really love

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to branch out into more kind of soft furnishing type

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products or, you know, like pram toys or baby gym

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toys or something, you know, or even just more styles

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of Muslin. Cause at the moment I've just got one

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and it'd be really nice to open that up a

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bit more. But I think supply chain wise at the

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moment is just not feasible with working with China. So

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yes, it's been a really good experience so far. Like

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I'm really happy with the product, but it's, it's just

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the logistics and the thought of it all being so

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far away and uncontrollable is, is quite tough.

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Yeah. But I'm glad to hear, you've had mostly positive

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experience sourcing from China likes. I know that's something that

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people can be a bit nervous about, but the reality

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is, as you found, there were some products that just

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either aren't manufactured here or as you say, it's just

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so hard to get a foot in the door, but

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you know, as a small business, small order that you,

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you know, you don't really have a choice, but to

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go elsewhere. So yeah, I'm really pleased to hear that.

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Overall, your experience sourcing there has been positive. Mine has

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been T I, I saw some of my products in

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China and yeah, you do hear the bad stories, but

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I think as long as you're diligent that, you know,

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overall I've had very positive experiences and as you said,

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very friendly service, you know, people really want to help.

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So I think it's just about doing your research and

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finding the right supplier.

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Yeah, definitely. And I think, yeah, I don't want anyone

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to be scared about looking outside the UK and you

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know, there's benefits to both of, you know, like I

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think quality should always be at the top of the

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list, you know, that made in Britain stampebest doesn't necessarily

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mean it's the, best, I think there's lots of technology

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out there. There's lots of amazing manufacturers and in India,

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certainly for soft finishing and fabrics and things is incredible.

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You know, the, the sort of leaps and bounds that

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other countries are making right now are really interesting and

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say, yeah, I think as long as people can try

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and do their research and if at all possible obviously

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visit, but I know that's, that's pretty difficult. I haven't

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been able to visit the places that make my products,

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but yeah.

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Trying to do as much research as possible, talk to

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people, try and find out if anyone, you know, has,

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has used a manufacturer before and know a lot of

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people keep that close to their chest. Cause it takes

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a lot of work to find them. But if, if

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you can get a recommendation, I think that's always a

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good place to start, but yeah, definitely don't be put

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off. It's just, it's just working through that stuff right.

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At the beginning, in order to feel confident that you

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found the right partner

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Hopefully once you've Got the right person, then it's a

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long-term relationship and you know, a lot of the hard

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work's done. So how do you manage, I'm just quite

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curious. I haven't, you have different products and different suppliers.

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How do you manage the logistics? How does that work?

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Do you use a third-party supplier? Do you ship everything

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yourself? How are you handling that day to day?

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Okay. Yeah, it's taking over a bit. I think as

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the product range has grown, it's definitely got a bit,

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a bit more difficult. I'm sat in my last at

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moment where all my stock that I have at home

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and it's just, yeah, it's piled up around me and

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I am packing everything myself, which I love, although I

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realize it's a complete and utter waste of my time

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really, because I could be spending doing other things, but

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I'm just not quite there yet in order to get

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somebody to come and do that or outsource it. So

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very soon I'm about to start some storage. So it's

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all going to go into storage and I'll just pick

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and choose the small pieces that I need for packing

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orders each week.

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But I'm hoping by maybe early next year that I'll

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have found some sort of fulfillment oxygen. And whether that

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is a third party kind of warehousing solution, or whether

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that's somebody who can come in once or twice a

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week for me, my preferred option would be to have

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somebody who can come and do it, but that obviously

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comes with a lot setup costs and I need space

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for them and all of that kind of thing. And

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obviously you have to find that person who's the right

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fit. He's willing to come and just pack a few

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parcels for me at the moment. It's not unmanageable because

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you know, it's just a steady flow of hoarders, but

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I'm, I am growing at a good rate and I'm

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really keen to be able to maximize that and maximize

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my time.

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So yeah, at the moment it's just a huge juggling

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act around family and home life and, and actually having

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it at home is helpful because you can go, I've

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got 10 minutes. I can go and, you know, pack

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a few orders now or, you know, late at night,

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something comes in and you really want to add it

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to the next day's dispatch. You can just go, I'll

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just go and do it. You know, haven't got to

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worry about managing customer conversations too much because everything's manageable

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in my space. But yeah, it's not, it's not a

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long-term solution. It's not going to think it can last

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much longer cause I'm just running out of space to

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put things.

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But you're right though. It's good. It's good , especially

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when you first get started. I mean, yes, you can

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change it evolve, but actually it's quite good to be

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hands-on festival because you know how things should be done.

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You, you managing it yourself, you've got complete control over

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it. Yeah. I think it's, it's definitely a good way

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to get started.

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Yeah. And there was something really lovely about seeing someone's

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order come in, especially if they've written a gift note

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that I hand write those guests notes and I pack

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it all up, knowing that it's, somebody's chasing that for

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really lovely reason or even if it's just for themselves.

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But you know, just to know that there's, that stranger

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has chosen my products, I'm putting together in a little

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parcel for them and try to imagine, you know, how

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they'll feel when they open it. It's, they're trying to

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make it, you know, it was packaged as one as

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possible and things like that. There was to have that,

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even if it's just for a short time at the

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beginning of your business, I think that will kind of,

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I didn't, I was spacing cooking. They called it nose

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to tail when they edit what you call it in

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business. But you know, that whole kind of start to

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finish process of putting your business out there to actually

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sending an order through the post is, is really special

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because somebody voted with their money and they've gone.

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I really like what you do and I'm willing to

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give you my money for it. And that's like, that

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is amazing. And to, to experience that three fulfilling the

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orders yourself that well, yeah. I don't know for me,

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I just really enjoy that part of it. And I'll,

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I'll be sad when I have to find the let

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go. Yeah,

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Yeah, no, I'm good. I only this year stopped to

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filling my own orders and I still kind of miss

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one thing. I used to write a handwritten note in

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every order that I sent out. Like a little thank

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you card. And I still miss being able to do

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that because obviously once someone else starts doing that for

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you, some of these little things have to stop and

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yeah, I do definitely miss being able to do that

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because you do feel a little bit more detached at

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that point and obviously you have to grow, it has

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to happen. It's practical, but yeah, I think it's nice

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to be able to have that personal touch. Isn't it?

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Yeah, definitely.

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So let's talk a little bit about your very many

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award wins and some of the successes you've had in

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the last few years, because yeah. I've seen it all

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and I'd love to talk a little bit about that.

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So yeah. So should we start, I'll start with an

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easy one. So can you tell us that some of

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the awards that you've received in the last couple of

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years?

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Yeah. I mean, I haven't done anything recently, but that

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first year that I started the business when we were

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back in the UK and I was settled in Bristol.

Speaker:So that was:Speaker:

I went right, this is going to be the real

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deal. Now I'm going to try and make this as

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big as it can be. I hadn't actually appreciated how

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low my confidence for us and that to go out.

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And I'm not very good at selling at all. And

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to have your own business, especially a product business, it

Speaker:

involves not only selling your products, but selling yourself and

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your story. And I've never been the most confident person,

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but I've always had a quiet confidence in my ability

Speaker:

at work and things like that with this was a

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whole new level of kind of putting yourself out there.

Speaker:

And I had the biggest wobble ever, and I kind

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of came home from of my first events and fell

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apart and was already called husband blessing, gave me a

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big old pep talk. And we decided that that year,

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the best thing for me was just to try everything.

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So just literally say no to nothing and just see

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what worked. And the worst thing was, I didn't have

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to go back. We didn't have to deal with anything.

Speaker:

It was, it was just try it, see how it

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felt and see what would happen. And so the awards

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were really big part of that because I was like,

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I've got nothing to lose. I'm totally unproven in the

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market. And no one's really heard of me say, let's

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see if I can get a bit of validation and

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based my kind of credentials a little bit.

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And so I just, yeah, I just kind of found

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a little bit of budget and just went for it

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and entered everything that I could see that might be

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helpful. And so that included, I did the made for

Speaker:

mums awards and the junior design awards. And I got

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silver at both of those, which was amazing because I

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think Osbourn and Penguin Random House with, or first and

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third in that. So to be placed amongst giants and

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the publishing world was incredible. And then when I had,

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do you have understand, let me find it. So I

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was one of the small business, Saturday, small business, 100

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businesses that year as well. And I went to the

Speaker:

house of Lords, which is pretty nice for their reception.

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I got to go to 10 Downing street with Enterprise

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Nation, which is a business organization. I joined, they take

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people along to chat to the business minister about things

Speaker:

that could help small businesses. So actually got to go

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inside and sit in a meeting room and have my

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say, which is incredible. I was one of the SPS

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winners with Theo Faphitis on Twitter and then got to

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meet him and get my certificate in person at his

Speaker:

event. And then probably the biggest one that year was

Speaker:

the Female Start Up for the air again with Enterprise

Speaker:

Nation and that involved having to stand on stage and

Speaker:

pitch to the audience and the judges, which was really

Speaker:

nerve wracking. And if you told me at the beginning

Speaker:

of the year, that's what I'd be doing. I would

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have run an absolute mile to the opposite direction.

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Cause I never thought I would, but I think because

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I'd already entered the awards and had some success, I've

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been going to lots of things and learning how to

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talk about the business. They actually wasn't as daunting as

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it could have been. And yeah, coming out as a

Speaker:

winner was really, it wasn't so much about winning. It

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was more about the fact that everyone in the room

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and the judges just, just believed in me and believed

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in the business. And so as a business and not

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just assisting, I was sort of playing up, you know,

Speaker:

just a hobby that they actually saw my vision and

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how I wants to grow it. So yeah, I don't

Speaker:k I've really done much since:Speaker:

a bit of enter the odd thing, but, but not

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with a lot of success, but sort of not really

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felt the need.

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I think that first year when I was just starting

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out was a really good time to do it, just

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to build my confidence up, build some credibility for the

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brand and the products and, and I just really didn't

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have anything to lose. So it, yeah, it really worked

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for me and I would, I would, I would advocate

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it anyone, you know, if they've got a new product

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and they, they just want some feedback, it's a really

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good way of getting it.

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That's fantastic. And would you say that, did the award

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wins help with raising awareness of the product and the

Speaker:

brand or was it more that you have the credibility?

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Cause obviously you can put the logo on your website

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and things or both. Yeah.

Speaker:

Both. Yeah, definitely both. I mean, I still get a

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lot of traffic from made for mums to the website

Speaker:

because they leave all that content up, you know, they

Speaker:

always have all the past winners. And so it's, even

Speaker:

if you just get shortlisted, anything that allows, you know,

Speaker:

those backlinks and just to have your name out there

Speaker:

on the, on the ins web. Yeah. And being able

Speaker:

to just put the badges on the products or on

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any social media posts and just have something to talk

Speaker:

about. And I've been invited back to, to speak about

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things and, you know, with the female start up of

Speaker:

the year, I've had a lot of kind of PR

Speaker:

in the back of that in terms of being invited

Speaker:

to speak for things and, and being involved in their,

Speaker:

their event that they do each year. So it's, it

Speaker:

does open doors and it, it just gives you an

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in, I think it's just like, it's just something to

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talk about without, you know, you don't have to be

Speaker:

really bragging about it, but it's just, people will go,

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Oh, weren't you that one?

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Or can you win that? Or didn't I see, you

Speaker:

know, or yeah, it's opened up a loss of compensations

Speaker:

for me. So it's been hugely beneficial.

Speaker:

Fantastic. Yeah, definitely. It sounds like something worth trying if

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you have a new product and you just want to

Speaker:

get some awareness out there and possibly a bit of

Speaker:

feedback as well.

Speaker:

Yeah. I mean, there was always a cost involved in

Speaker:

some form whether it's to enter or whether it's to

Speaker:

be able to display the badge or whatever it is,

Speaker:

but she usually fairly small. And I think if you,

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if you're smart about it, I mean, I've only ever

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entered one category and one product. So, you know, it

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doesn't have to be a huge barrier to entering. It's

Speaker:

just being a bit tactical with it and, and thinking

Speaker:

about which categories you might have a good chance in,

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And I guess which awards are going to be the

Speaker:

best fit as well. Cause I guess they're made for

Speaker:

mum's awards for you as an ideal one, because I'm

Speaker:

sure that mums look at our website all the time

Speaker:

to get ideas for new products. So that seems like

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a really smart choice.

Speaker:

Yeah. And it's judged by moms, you know, and there's

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nothing better than say, like parents have actually approved this.

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I think as a parent myself, I love anything that

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people go, yeah. Parents have tried and tested this and

Speaker:

they, they say, yes, it's not just, somebody's sat detached

Speaker:

going. I like the look of it. It's, you know,

Speaker:

really kind of been tried and tested with real children

Speaker:

and real parents.

Speaker:

Yeah. And that does give it real credibility. And so

Speaker:

speaking, well, this is a bit of a tenuous link,

Speaker:

but speaking about being tried by real parents and real

Speaker:

children do you want to talk a little bit about

Speaker:

how Joe Wickshis shared your products over the summer? Because

Speaker:

I saw that on his Instagram and I would love

Speaker:

to know how that came about and the result of

Speaker:

that.

Speaker:

Yes. That I'm really bad with the whole influence thing

Speaker:

and gifting and finding celebs to like share and all

Speaker:

that kind of stuff. So I, I don't do any

Speaker:

of that and I probably should. So this is a

Speaker:

bit of a one-off the, I was doing his PE

Speaker:

lessons every day through lockdown and it was just really

Speaker:

helping me mentally and physically to feel a lot better.

Speaker:

And he's such a nice guy and I listened to

Speaker:

some podcasts of his and things and interviews and the

Speaker:

way he talks about being a businessman is really refreshing.

Speaker:

And he's so positive about everything. And he sort of

Speaker:

gives himself a little pep talks, like, come on, Joe,

Speaker:

you can do it. And he talks about just plugging

Speaker:

away, relentlessly at what he does.

Speaker:

And everyone thinks that he's just this amazing overnight success

Speaker:

story that he always says, no, I'm an eight year

Speaker:

overnight success story because he's been doing it for a

Speaker:

really long time. He's just generated thousands of hours of

Speaker:

content. And so I've just got a lot of respect

Speaker:

for how he preaches all of that and his relentless

Speaker:

energy really. And I know that his wife loves animals

Speaker:

or they, they love animals and the family and his

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kids is the perfect age for my products. And so

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I just really sent a gift pack to his registered

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office. I don't even know if you'd get just, I

Speaker:

found his office on his website, bundled up a gift

Speaker:

pack, regular letter about how much I've been loving his

Speaker:

PE lessons.

Speaker:

And that I was really grateful and, you know, respected

Speaker:

him as a business person. It really helped me as

Speaker:

a small business as well, and really kind of resonated

Speaker:

with me some of the things you've said. So he's

Speaker:

probably a bit of a cause she left her, but

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it was all from the heart and it was all

Speaker:

very genuine. And I, I had no expectations at all.

Speaker:

It was more kind of a repaying kindness with the

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slight hope inside me that he had, if he said

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it would be insane, but, but it certainly wasn't the

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main way innovation. And then, yeah, it wasn't like all

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of a sudden, like two or three weeks after I'd

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sent it. So then he got a notification on Instagram

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that he, he was doing the story and boxing like

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unwrapping them all and showing them and talking about them.

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And it all went a bit bonkers for 24 hours.

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I just could see that the orders coming in and

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he actually sent me a really nice voice message on

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Instagram as well, and about how much he loved them

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and that his little girl was trying to pronounce some

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of them. And it was really funny and he was

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learning as well. It was, yeah, it was really lovely

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moment of just like, wow, okay, there's this guy who's

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doing all this amazing stuff. Also really likes what I'm

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doing. And then, yeah, I like the 24th. Cause the

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Instagram stories is only live for 24 hours, but that

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was the real kind of, wow. Am I Instagram following

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went up by about a thousand, which is sort of

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like watching it go, but the whole of that week,

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really?

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Yeah. The oldest were pretty high compared to normal and

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most of my Amazon stock sold out as well. And

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so that month was a real bumper month for me.

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It gave the business such a boost and just lifted

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my spirits so much. And then I think also gave

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me some mentioned to carry on the next couple of

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months where, you know, there's stuff to talk about. And

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I had such a spring in my step that it

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just, it made like other stuff a little bit easier

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for me during quite a tough time with like the

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lockdown and everything like that. So yeah, a bit of

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a one-off but amazing.

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Oh, that's fantastic. What a lovely story and see, like

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you, I've never done any of this sending things to

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influencers says because I just, you know, not sure how

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to feel about it. Not saying there's anything wrong with

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doing that. I know lots of people have success, but

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I really love the fact that you did it as

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a genuine thank you as a, you know, you know,

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you did it not, you know, not thinking that he's

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going to share just to say, thank you for all

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that he'd done for you. And I think that's a

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really lovely story and I think it just, yeah, I

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mean, there's a nice message.

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I think, I mean the influence stuff, I mainly just

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don't know who anyone is. I'm such a Nana that

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I just, I'm just not up with all the kind

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of current TV programs and you know, why people are

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famous and like the people with the big accounts and

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Instagram, I'm just like, I have no idea who they

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are. And I find it really difficult to start a

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conversation with them or contact them when I'm like genuinely

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just have no idea who you are. So, so it

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was, this was an easy one because like I already

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knew who he was and you know what he's doing

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and, and had that respect for him. So yeah, I

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mean it is, I do think it is a really

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good way of getting eyeballs on your business, but it's

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a whole job in itself, you know, to work out

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who the best people to, to kind of approach.

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I think so too. I'm I'm the same. I can't

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tell you who's got children. How old their children are.

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I just, yeah. Yeah. So out of the loop now,

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no children myself, but yeah, I really do like that

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story. Cause I think he did something genuinely lovely and

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yeah. And I'm really pleased that you got that, you

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know, you've got a boost in your sales and as

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you say, it was such a tough time, wasn't it

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over? Cause wasn't it around may, June time I'm in,

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but I think all of us then who run well,

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everyone, wherever you are on a business or not, I

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think all of us around that time were really flagging

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after months of been a home. And yeah, that must

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have been such a lovely beast.

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Yeah. It was perfect timing. Really. I'm glad I plucked

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up the courage to do it

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Well done. I think, yeah, you, you, you were really

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brave and Wells that I'm set and I'm so pleased

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that you can give some recognition for it, even though

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I know that set and it wasn't your intention. I'm

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so pleased that happened for you. So while we're on

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the subject of, of lovely things, I know that you

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donate 25% of your profits. That's something I read about

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you. And I would just love if you could just

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tell us a little bit more about that and about

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your business values and why you're choosing to do that.

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Yeah. Whether I come to, regret That as a, as

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a big percentage, but ultimately it really pushes me to

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be as successful as possible. So, you know, I'm not,

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I'm not super greedy. I don't want, well, it'd be

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lovely to have millions, but that's not the end game.

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You know, this isn't about making money for me. This

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is about building a business that I love and that

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I see myself running for. As long as I can

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possibly run it, this isn't a quick kind of build

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it and sell it job. And my husband and I

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have always spoken about businesses that could give back and,

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and, you know, even if all businesses in the world

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gave like 1% of their profits away or four, not

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5%, you know, if every single one did it, what

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difference that would make, if it all went into this

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kind of column, a pot that could help everybody.

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And so I've always had, we've always had this thing

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about, you know, people and planet can both profit at

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the same time. And, and you know, they, they both

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would spare each other ons to do better and better

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and better. And so it kind of came up that,

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and I think probably a little bit of arrogance within

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that. I wants to put a stake in the ground

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and go, I don't want to just give 5% away.

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I want to get a huge, I want to make

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everyone go. Wow. So I sort of went all in

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at 25%, which at the moment it's, it's manageable, but

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I think , I think this year we didn't need

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to sort out maybe some sort of funds that the

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money could go into, so that could work a bit

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harder.

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So it's more than just the donation of one of

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the nation that it's my longterm dream is to have

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a fund that people can apply to for conservation projects

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and things like that. So I, I think I've already

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seen start splitting it between a donation and going into

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that fund to try and build this money that people

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could apply to. So yeah, I think it's just for

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me, I just think in this day and age, businesses

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can do so much good and they don't have to

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be completely like separate from each other, you know, charities

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and business. They should, they can go hand in hand

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and it can be about profit. It's not a dirty

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word. It's, you know, it's kind of the more businesses

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can profit, more pliant can profit and we should all

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be thinking more sustainably friendly.

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And the choices we make, some of them should be

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no-brainers, you know, but packaging and about single use plastics

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and you know, all of my products, I try to

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make them they're designed to last. They're not just one

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hit wonders. You know, all of that comes into my

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philosophy as a business owner is that I want to

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have the best impact on the planet. And I know

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often the best impact is to just reduce and take

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away. But I, you know, I want what I'm putting

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out there to have a positive impact will help children

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think differently as they grow up about wildlife and nature.

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And I want them to think that, you know, you

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can be a very successful business person and give a

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considerable amount back to whatever it is that you care

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about and, and sort of set a bit of a

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precedent for that.

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And that's all very lofty. I, but, but that's what

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drives me on is that the more money I can

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make for myself, the more money I can give away

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at the same time.

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That's fantastic. And it's, yeah, it's amazing that it's even

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that. And it's also good that you're so clear on

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who you are, who your business is, what you're about

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and what your goals are because yeah, it's tight, you

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know, you can really tell by talking to you that

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you're not doing it as a gimmick or as a

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marketing device. It's because it's something that you care passionately

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about and it's powerful, you know, inspires you want surfing.

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That's fantastic.

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And I, I didn't actually talk about it all that

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much. It's more of a kind of, it's just printed

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on the back of the products and it's just sort

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of, Oh, and by the way, I'm hoping that there'll

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be a turning point where, like I say, I've kind

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of built up maybe that that funds or, you know,

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where it does become a more integral part of the

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conversation at the moment. I'm much more focused on people

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just understanding that we're trying to be as sustainable, as

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sustainable as possible, and that our products are genuinely built

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to last that they're not just, you know, for those

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early months, cause we all have so much baby clutter

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in those early days and you have no idea what's

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good and bad as a parent, you just get all

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this stuff and people give you all these amazing gifts,

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but it's a lot of stuff.

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And so if my products can cut through that a

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little bit and the few things that last three or

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four years, even that's amazing to me, and then they

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get passed on, you know, if they, if they're still

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in South honorable condition, but the outs, it's all part

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of the bigger picture as a business that I'm just

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trying to create that message to positivity. And that it's

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not, it doesn't have to be demons. Not all companies

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are out to just strip the earth of everything. And

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you know, that it's not all about that, that one

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person at the top or anything like that, but it's,

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you know, it's about people and the planet. And that

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hopefully when I get to the stage where I can

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bring anybody on board, it will be very much the

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right people and that they believe in it in the

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same things that I do, but also that I can

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help them and that they can be a part of

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something that they care about.

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And it's not just an employee with a job.

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I think that's fantastic. And just really to get that,

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you'll say clever on your why and why, you know,

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why you're doing this and it, and as you were

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talking, I was actually thinking that I have a very

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similar goal in terms of sustainability and creating products that

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last a long time. And I'm not sure that I

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ever really talk about it. So that's something to write

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down.

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Yeah. It's a good conversation piece. I think people would

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definitely seeking it out more and more and it's, it's

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people love to feel good about their pitch, so they

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might be buying it anyway. But if you can just

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add that little cherry on top, it makes some time

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that's lovely. And I'm going to tell the person I

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bought that for all about that because it makes my

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guest more thoughtful or, you know, it's just that feel-good

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factor. Everyone loves that when you buy something, you just

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want that extra little kind of yeah.

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Yeah. And I think that's a really good reminder to

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talk a bit more about yourself and, and the reason

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behind your business and why you're doing what you're doing

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and what your goals are. Because, you know, especially as

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a small business, it can't just be about the products

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because there are lots of products out there. I think

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people have to really resonate with you and your messaging

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as well. So that's a fantastic reminder. So we just

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have a few more questions before we close. If that's

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okay with you, I would love to know what you,

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I mean, and you've given us lots of things already,

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but if you could summarize what you love about your

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business and particularly about sort of having a products business

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as opposed to anything else, that'd be fantastic

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For me. It's all about the creativity. So I studied

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graphic design at university. I worked in advertising for years.

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I've always done a creative job, say to have a

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business that has that creative outlet is the best thing

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for me personally, just my wellbeing and what I enjoy

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doing. I'm very lucky that I can design all my

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products myself pretty much, you know, or take them to

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a stage. At least it's good to pass over. So

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I do all of the illustrations, all of the design

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setup, all of that kind of stuff. And so that's

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what I love really is that, you know, I try

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and I I've now gift myself at least half an

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hour in my workdays to, to finish the day on

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something creative.

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So whether that's doing some new illustrations or little new

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products up or anything like that, because I used to

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feel guilty for that because it was like taking away

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from finances and spreadsheets and all the logistic stuff that

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I was trying to ignore. But now actually that, that

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is the core of my business. My business is a

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creative business. And if I, if I let that die,

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it's, it's just, that takes away the whole reason for

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doing this really for me, CS, it's really just all

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about the creativity, having that creative outlet and trying to

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bring people along that journey with me.

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Yeah. And absolutely you should do the things that you

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enjoy doing as well. I think that that's, yeah, that

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is really important that if you love the creative side,

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that you do make the time to do that because

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you know, when you start your own business, one of

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that's, one of the benefits is you can, Oh, wait,

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you have to do some things you don't enjoy, but

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you should be doing a lot of things you did

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enjoy as well.

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Yeah. And that's the thing that I'll try and keep

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as much as possible as I, as I grow is

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that the people that I bring on board or the

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things I outsource, it's going to be all the things

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I'm not very good at. The one thing I hopefully

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am good at is the creative side and the product

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development. And I think something so lovely about the real

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product that you can hold and that you can share

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that and that people will vote. Like I said earlier,

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or vote with their money that they go, right. I

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actually want to own this as an item. And I

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think that's what sort of sets product businesses and maybe

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services businesses apart is that yeah, they're buying into you,

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but they're also buying into what you're creating. And if

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you can physically create something that makes somebody else smile

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or makes their world a little bit better, that's really

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lovely.

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I think, and channeling that creativity into, into a real

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life product that, that you can hold in your hands

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is, is quite special.

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It really is. So One final question, if that's okay.

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And this is the question I ask everyone, which is

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what would be your number one piece of advice to

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other product creators or aspiring?

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Great. It's really hard because the more I talk about

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my journey, the more I realize I've got all these

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little bits that I want people to like take on

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board. But I think the biggest learning for me has

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been this, there are no rules that contrary to what

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all these people who probably make millions of pounds a

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year telling you out of consulting, or, you know, that

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people set the business up around telling other people how

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to make millions of and all that kind of stuff.

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But ultimately as long as you're following the Lea or

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advice and tax rules, everything else is up for grabs.

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So there's no reason why you should be running your

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business as a carbon copy of someone else's, you know,

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like do this your own way.

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If you want to grow slate, gray, slow. If you

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want to grow, you know, be a massive overnight success,

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put your effort into that, whatever it is, just remember

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that like everyone will have advice, pick and choose what

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works for you and what applies to you and what

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your, what you resonate with, like, and discard the rest,

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you know, shut out all of these voices, stay in

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your own lane and just, yeah. Strip it down to

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micro tasks to start somewhere because you can't learn anything

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if you don't start. So just have a game. Try

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not to be scared, easier said than done, but I

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think really breaking it down into tiny little micro tasks

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that just push you forward little by little and forgetting

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about the rules and just doing it your own way.

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Like I said, I see for going, Hey, we'll jump

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in feet first that won't work for everybody. But that

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works for me. I, you know, I think I forgot

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a business plan somewhere, but it certainly wasn't the first

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thing that I wrote. So yeah, I think it's just

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straight the rule book out. Don't worry about it. Just,

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just have a game and see what happens is that

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like super old cliche about fail fast, fail cheap, but

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it's so true. Just you won't know, unless you try

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and put yourself out there and just, however, however you

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can do that. So breaking it down into really small

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tasks or, you know, giving yourself many challenges or finding

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a great support group, you know, whatever that is, that's

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going to propel you forward.

Speaker:

Just take these little steps because now I'm like three

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years on and I look back and like talking to

Speaker:

you and like I never realized I'd have so much

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to say, you know, and it creeps up on you

Speaker:

that all of a sudden you've got all this knowledge

Speaker:

to share. And, you know, there are these people who

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are huge mega successes that they're so far out of

Speaker:

reach. And actually what needs to hear from a people

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who are a few steps ahead of you each time,

Speaker:

because you can go, Oh, well, I could be there

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by next year. And you only really get that from

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just starting and trying and talking to other people and

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having a go.

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Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. And

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I'm absolutely with you and yeah, that, that's kind of

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the whole basis of the show as well is to,

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is to interview people a few years into their business

Speaker:

journeys. Because as say you learn so much in those

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first few years and you have so much to share.

Speaker:

And I think it's also a bit more relevant to

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people who are just starting out because it's not quite

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as daunting when someone's, you know, two, three, four, five

Speaker:

years ahead. There's a pace to someone who's been doing

Speaker:

it for 20 years. And the world is probably very

Speaker:

different when they got started. So thank you so much

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for saying that and thank you for sharing your advice

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as well. And for everything you shared today, it's been

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fantastic. We shared such a lot. We've probably gone over

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time.

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Thank you.

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I told you once I get going, which I never

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thought I would,

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but it's been fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Ruth

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really appreciate it.

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Oh no. Thank you for having me. It's been really

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great to sort of share my ups and downs really.

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Oh, you're welcome. As always. Thank you so much for

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listening to this episode. I really hope that you enjoys

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it and that you also took something away from it

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too. I absolutely love to know what resonates with you

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and what you actually can take away and action from

Speaker:

listen to episode. So please, please do get in touch.

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If you'd like to it's vicky@tinychipmunk.com or find me on

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Instagram at Vicki Weinberg product creation. Cause that's where I

Speaker:

just social channel. I most often am at again. Thank

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you so much. If you have got the time to

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rate and review the show, I would really appreciate it.

Speaker:

That's if you're listening Apple podcasts, it's just a few

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clicks next couple of seconds and it would really help

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me out.

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So thank you so much. And I'm really looking forward

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to speaking with you again next week.