Selling a product people don’t know they need – with Iain Moore – BGreater Shoes

undefined: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice, as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:24

Today I'm talking with Iain Moore from B Greater Shoes. B Greater Shoes designs and sell affordable kids foot friendly shoes, which are designed to allow our children's feet to grow, develop, and move more naturally than most high street brands, while importantly looking after parents' wallets and time.

undefined: 00:00:39

So, Ian and I spoke a lot about shoes, as as you might have guessed. Um, and we also spoke about what barefoot shoes mean. Why this is important for children, as well as a lot about the process of designing a a children's shoe. I really hope you enjoyed this conversation with Ian. As always, I think there's so much you'll be able to take away from it, and I would love to introduce you. So, hi Ian. Thank you so much for being here.

Iain Moore: 00:01:05

Hi, how are you doing?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:06

Really good. Thank you. Very excited to talk to you today. Can we start by you please give an introduction to yourself and your business and what you sell.

Iain Moore: 00:01:14

Okay. I'm Iain Moore. I am the founder of B Greater Limited, and we make affordable kids barefoot shoes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:23

Amazing. Thank you. So let's start right at the beginning, Iain, with what inspired you to create barefoot kids shoes? What was, what was kind of the catalyst for you thinking, okay, this is a business that, that I'm going to start?

Iain Moore: 00:01:36

So it's a bit of a long, long answer really. But I'd say the shortest way is I was the customer. And there was, there was nothing there in my budget. Basically, I was buying barefoot shoes for my children. And the main sort of household brand, if you like, is, uh, Vivo Barefoot, who they do fantastic things, uh, with shoes. They have absolutely paved the way with sort of spreading work the word about barefoot shoes. But they, they're, they're a bit above my price point. I mean, the, the average sort of starting price for some of the children's shoes is about 75 pounds, which I think is out of a lot of people's budget.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:15

Absolutely. And especially as, you know, anyone with kids know their feet change and grow so quickly that you can be buying new shoes on like a, not a monthly basis, but it, you know, if it's early, can feel like that. So yeah, I would say that's beyond a, a lot of people's budgets.

Iain Moore: 00:02:29

Yeah, definitely. So it was one of the things which we thought was important was, you know, why we are focusing on affordable kids shoes and not the adult. One, there's already a lot of people doing adult shoes, but also I do think that, you know, we should spend a bit more on shoes for adults, have fewer pairs, but look after them and they should last us a good few years. Whereas, you know, with the best will in the world, you can say to your five year old, oh, these are some new shoes. And look after them when you go to school and the chances are they are going to come back and they've been pretty battered no matter what you say to them. So I don't really see, for a lot of people that spending 75 pounds ish on a, a pair of shoes is really a viable option. So I wanted to create something, uh, a lot better than what I could find, which was out there and I had, I'd always had problems with my feet as a kid growing up and was kind of put in that standard thing of, you know, go to Clarks, get your feet measured, you need more support, you need put your feet in the right place, and all of this. I ended up even having to had, uh, have orthotics put in my shoes and it never fixed the problem. Which then led me onto Barefoot Shoes and then ended up wanting, you know, the best foot health for my children. Which then how I, why I started then getting them barefoot shoes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:50

Thank you. And I'm going to go a little bit even further back if that's okay. So would you mind telling us, well, firstly, what barefoot shoes are for anyone who, who hasn't heard of them? And then second, secondly, what the difference is between a barefoot shoe and a regular shoe. Just so people get an idea of why it was that you were so keen for your children to be wearing barefoot shoes.

Iain Moore: 00:04:10

Yeah. Cool. So I'd say there's three main sort of points with, uh, a barefoot shoe is one, you have a nice wide toe box so that the toes can, you know, wiggle and they've got room to grow in, you know, a more natural shape and things like that rather than, you know, ended up growing so that they end up looking like, uh, the shoes that they're actually sort of wearing throughout their childhood. The other point is that it's a z what's called a zero drop shoe, so that the height at the toes and the heels is the same height, so you don't have any elevated heel. And they should also be a really thin and flexible sole. So you can get that sensory feedback from, from the ground as you're walking. You know, basically wearing, you know, is the, the, the more is less kind of concept, if you like, of, of, of shoes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:06

Thank you. See, I've worn barefoot trainers for running for quite a long time, um, because I read about the advantages of you being able to feel the floor underneath your feet and yeah, and all of that kind of thing. I'll be honest, I've never considered it for sort of day to day walking around, which sounds crazy when you think about it. Yeah. Um, I've saw, I was, remember I was looking on your Instagram and I saw this really shocking image and I'm going to recommend, we're going to link your Instagram in the show notes. I recommend everyone goes to show it with like a issue where you could see a child's foot in bird, a regular shoe and then a child, but inside a barefoot shoe. And I was really quite shocked at how compressed particularly the toe area is in a sort of regular shoe. That was quite shocking to me.

Iain Moore: 00:05:47

Yeah, I mean, that, that image is, you know, just the, the, um, it's a picture of my son's feet. It was a pair of shoes which we had, which we'd bought from a, a local shop and yeah, just a, a pair of ours. And we cut out the, the inside, took a photo and I think, you know, what's that? You know, picture paints a thousand words. Um, and all of that stuff. Um, I mean, I think everyone would agree that bad footwear can damage feet. I, you know, I think that's, you know, a lot of people would agree with that, but it's then trying to work out and people don't fully agree on then what is good for your feet. If, if, you know, if we know that bad shoes hurt your feet, then what is the good option? And that's where I think a lot of people, and you know, more people are realizing actually sort of barefoot shoes are the way forwards. I would say there with some physios and you know, sort of chiropractors and doctors, there can be a bit of a split about whether barefoot shoes are a good thing or not. But generally that discussion is always around adults because they'll say, you know, for example, like yourself, you know, you, you've spent sort of 20, 30, 40 years or you know, whatever work wore wearing traditional shoes, and then suddenly, you know, in your thirties or or whatever you, you then decide, oh, actually, you know, I, I've, like you, you know yourself. I've read this article, I'm going to start running in barefoot shoes. Some, you know, physios and chiropractors might say that actually that could end up causing more problems than it could fix. And my whole belief around this is why are we adapting? Of wearing shoes, which put our feet in unnatural positions. Why not just let children's feet grow, as I'm sure most parents would want, their children's grow is being healthy and unrestricted. Um, and that's, that's kind of what we do.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:46

And now of interesting. And I will move on to talk more about creating your shoes in a minute, but I'm just, I just out of interest, do you wearing, or do you know whether wearing shoes that are perhaps a bit restrictive, whether it has any impact on anything other than your feet? So I can imagine it could potentially impact maybe your posture or your spine. I, I don't, I don't know this, I'm just thinking.

Iain Moore: 00:08:06

Definitely. I mean, oh, no, no, no. I mean it. Um, your feet are the, you know, foundations, you know, to your, to your body. And if there's something wrong with the foundations, you know, with your house, then everything, you know, cracks are going to appear everywhere else. So it'll all just go up that kinetic chain. It'll, you know, you could then end up with, you know, problems with your ankles, your knees, your hips, your spine, the lot. Um, not, I, I will also be honest with people. You know, I love barefoot shoes. I'm obviously a big advocate, but I'm not trying to say that it is a panacea that, you know, if you wear bare shoes, barefoot shoes, it is going to stop you getting any knee problems or any back problems. You know, I'm actually trying to be really honest, as a brand, we do think that there's benefits, maybe not for everyone, but the majority of people, I think our shoes will be beneficial. But yeah, they, it can cause all sorts of problems. Like you said, not just your, not just with your feet.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:01

Thank you and I, that's really good context and, and I appreciate you saying that you're not sort of wanting to put misinformation out there. But yeah, so thank you for EX for explaining all of that as well. So I'd like to talk now if that's okay, Iain, about the process of actually designing and creating your shoes. Because I imagine there's lots that goes on between going, actually, I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm going to create my own, to actually having a product ready to sell. So should we start at the beginning when you decided that you were going to create your own range and talk us through, um, sort of how you got started, I think is a good place to start.

Iain Moore: 00:09:34

Yeah, that's fine. So I'd say how it all kind of started in when, you know, that little seed ended or that last bit kind of clicked and I thought, right, I'm actually going to do this as a business because I, things have been sort of growing subtly in my head, but it was, um, actually watching Dragons' Den one evening and I just, you know, shouted at the TV one of many times and said, oh, I've got an idea. How about someone actually makes some affordable shoes, which are good for children's feet for once? But that idea just didn't go, it just lingered. And I kept coming back to it and, and then I thought, right, well what can I do? How do I go about doing this because I've got no idea about shoes or footwear. I was in the Army for 10 years, so I've got no experience in, in sort of business or anything like this. So I literally started, I went online, I downloaded the Dragons' Den, uh, application pack in there. It says, you know, have you got a business plan? I was like, that's a good point. I need a business plan. So I forgot about, I, you know, parked the whole Dragons' Den idea and thought, right, let's get a business plan. So my first step was building a good business plan. Um, I, I did that. Um, I, you know, sort of looked at the, the markets out there, what there was on, you know, um, what there was available. Looked at all my competitors. And then just slowly started developing that kind of the business plan, if you like, from that side. Then the actual trying to develop a shoe. I've, I went out and I, uh, I found some freelance shoe designers. Um, I had a number of meetings with them. Tried to narrow down, you know, who, who I wanted to work with because I knew this was going to be an ongoing thing and I wanted a good sort of personal relationship. I wanted someone who really bought into what I was doing and why I was doing it. I thought that was really important for me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:35

Yeah, that makes absolutely sense. As you say, it is a long-term relationship, whether that's with a manufacturer, designer. By the way, I didn't know you, there were free freelance shoe designers. That's really interesting. I suppose it makes sense that there would be, because I guess very few people have that skillset. So that makes total sense. So once you found someone that you were happy to work with, I guess, was it a sort of a collaborative thing of you explaining what you wanted and then translating that into actual designs?

Iain Moore: 00:12:01

Yeah, very much so. So to start off with, I mean, it was brilliant. I mean, Dan, who's my freelance designer, like if it wasn't for for him, I definitely wouldn't be sort of where I am now. So, like I said, right, this is sort of my price point, this is my target audience. And then his thing was, he then said, right, you know, come back to me with images, you know, go online, you know, sort of just find images. What do you like, what don't you like? Um, it doesn't have to be barefoot shoes, it can just be, you know, traditional shoes. But we, you know, they wanted to get an idea of what styles and things like that we were after. Um, I then gave them a bit of a brief, so I think quite a few of the barefoot shoes out there can look a little bit quirky without trying to say it, without trying to shoot myself in the foot as a, as a brand beca and, you know, um, but yeah, some, some of the shoes out there aren't the type of shoes which I would really choose to wear. I, I do prefer the more sort of traditional, regular shoe look. And that's what what I said I wanted. I basically said to him, look, I want a shoe, which looks very much like one you could pick up in, you know, uh, any sports shop or, um, Clarks or anything like that, but just has these added benefits. I want something which, you know, no kids are going to get bullied for, or anyone's going to take them Mick because they look like clown shoes or anything like that. So I sent them all these photos. They came up with some designs, sent them back. And I just kind of said, yes, I kind of like this. I don't like that one. How about you put a bit of this on, a bit of there and you know, we just kind of built it through that way and it was very collaborative.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:46

That's brilliant. And so then you ended up, I guess, with some designs. How many designs did you start off with?

Iain Moore: 00:13:51

Um, I'm trying to think. I think with the shoes and with the trainers, I think we had about five designs roughly of each, let's say, and then we sort of whittled it down and then basically being cost effective we've launched with one style of trainer, but do we then have, I think five different colourways of that trainer. So, you know, by tweaking a few little bits, they do like, look like different trainers, but actually they are just one design because otherwise, you know, it's going to really bump up the costs of manufacturer and everything you're going to need different. Um, I got to pay for more knives to be made to cut the materials and everything like this. So, you know, I just went for one design and different colourway.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:33

That makes total sense. So let's talk a little bit about the manufacturing then. Um, so once you have your designs, because I guess having designs on paper is one thing, but then there's actually translating that into a shoe, checking that they look as you expect, feel as you expect they fit, and you have to find a manufacturer to do all of this. So let's talk a bit about that please. Where did you start with looking for someone to manufacture your shoes?

Iain Moore: 00:14:56

So I'll be honest, this is also where I completely, uh, landed on my feet here. So the freelance designer who I worked with, um, he had a, um, I guess a business partner. I was in China, so they. Themselves, you know, they work collaboratively and you know, instantly said, look, you can, there are other factories out there, but at your price points, you know, I recommend that we go to China. You know, I've got a member of staff out there. And, um, you know, we can start getting samples made and everything like that. So I was, I was really lucky actually. Um, they did all of that for me. And another thing which was really good with that was my key thing was affordability. Now, initially I had said I kind of wanted it sort of sub 30 pounds or, you know, sort of high twentys to about 30, but in the end, to make something, which was with, when you've taken shippings and shipping charges and everything else to make so a quality product I, I really wasn't able to do that. So we've had to bump it up slightly. So our trainers are 35 pounds, but when we went through the whole design process, everything was about, um, keeping them affordable. So what was good with working with that was he basically said, look, I can be here with you every step of the way, so you give us a price point and we can work back from there really with the factory, and we can develop over time and we can adjust the design. Whereas if I'd gone with some of the other freelance designers who I was talking to, they basically were just giving me a design and said, that's fine, you know, off you go, go and find your, your factories. Now you could then take that design to a factory and they go, yeah, we can build this, but it's going to cost, you know, $50 a unit or something, rather than, uh, you know, what we were looking for. So it was really good actually, that Dan sort of had this contact.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:49

That's such a good point. And I, I can totally see that you, I think you actually, the way you've described it to me, I'm thinking actually that's almost essential because you're right. If you, if the designer doesn't have a good understanding of the production process, they could very well design you something that you say that's way over your budget. Um, not, you know, not on purpose, but I guess if they don't really know, have a sense of how much things cost and what materials are. And so it sounds like your designer also had some sort of understanding of, how shoes are produced or at least, you know, was in contact with somebody who did.

Iain Moore: 00:17:22

Oh, definitely. I mean, he, he's been across to the factories, you know, numerous times over the years. I mean, uh, he's been in the footwear industry for sort of over 20 years, so he, he, you know, well, children's footwear. Not really, he does some adults, but his, his focus has always been on children's. So yeah, he know, he knows the whole process and you know, how he can shave a bit of money off and, and all these different things.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:46

Well, that sounds invaluable.

Iain Moore: 00:17:48

Yeah, no, it definitely if like, you know, I, I've said to him, um, before, if it wasn't for him, you know, I definitely wouldn't be where I am now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:57

Isn't it good when people just come into your life at just the right time? That's amazing.

Iain Moore: 00:18:01

Yeah. Um, it, it really was helpful, you know, um, there's been a number of cases like that when things have, you know, kind of gone well for me. But then it's also tricky because I, in some ways with this, I've said, you know, I've said to people that I've been really lucky. But I've actually, years ago, listened to a podcast, actually, I'm sure. I, um, they were talking about a, a study which they did, about people who believed that they were lucky and people who felt that they were sort of unlucky and, and things just never really worked for them or turned out well for them. I'm sure that they sort of basically sent them into this room for like a meet and greet, and the people who said that they were lucky basically went in, got a coffee and just started mingling and talking to people. And then they then found that the people who then said that generally they find themselves unlucky and things just don't work out for them, are the people who kind of got a coffee, stood to the side and use their phone and sort of heads down and didn't really start those conversations and I, I've definitely you know, the more I've been doing this, I definitely see that that's one thing which has helped me is just conversations with people, asking people what they do and, and just really trying to understand it and talking, you know, honestly about what I do. And then, you know, I mean, I've had some, some of the dads from my son's school have helped me out with the business plan and stuff because, you know, I was talking to them and about honestly what I was doing and, you know, I had no experience whatsoever about running or starting my own business and just that little bit of vulnerability, they kind of went, well look, you know, I, I'm no guru, but bring us your business plan. You know, I did mine 10, 20 years ago and I'll have a look at for you. Um, but it was just because I started that conversation. That's how it happened.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:45

That's really good, isn't it? I think you are right. I think if you're open to help and I, I think it's about being open, isn't it? If you think if you're open, then more comes along. I don't mean that in we were waiting, but I just think in general, I think if you're, like you say you're willing to talk to people or may maybe even ask for help as well, I think. Yeah. Um, people don't always know that you need it if you, you know, if you, if you're not talking about it and telling people. So I, I'd love to know as well, so when, as well as talking to people about, you know, your, your business, did you get other people involved? I'm thinking when you had started, you know, you got to the sampling stage, were you talking to other people about what they wanted from this shoe or what they thought of the designs or, or anything like that?

Iain Moore: 00:20:25

So I did, so initially when I first, I guess, started coming up with, uh, developing the ideas of the shoes, I wanted to make sure that what I thought, I guess was objectively correct. So I actually did a, um, oh, what do you bloody call it? Not a quiz, uh, survey. So I did a survey. And I put it out on social media. And because I was part of some of the barefoot shoe groups, you know, I just did a little post and just said, look, I'm, this is what I'm looking at doing. If anyone's got some time, could you please com uh, complete this survey. So I had loads of people complete the survey, which told me, you know, sort of what was important to them when buying shoes. Who makes the decisions, the price points, you know, when buying some shoes, you know, what's the highest priority and you know, like what style of shoes would you get? And, and there the clear favorite was trainers, school shoes, and wellies, um, for the children. Then when we went through the design process, we started getting the, the, the samples, you know, I basically, I started showing those to, to people who I knew, sort of friends and things like that. And basically just said like, you know, what do you think of this? What do you think of the style? And I just had a few people who were close to me who, um, I got a bit of advice from and, and yeah, that, you know, that, that worked wonder.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:52

That's brilliant and I, I think it's, that's great to hear because I, and it's good that you were part of those barefoot communities as well because it sounds like they're the ideal people to get feedback from because I'm assuming that people who are part of those communities who have children are therefore going to be very interested in these shoes for their children.

Iain Moore: 00:22:07

Yeah. Although again, maybe I have to be, be a bit careful what I say. With the barefoot community, I guess they're, the barefoot community, are really aware of the benefits of the shoes and they've like fully bought into what they want from a barefoot shoe. And then what I have found was some of the parents from the barefoot community, if you like, were, I don't want to say really picky, but they, you know, they wanted far more than what I was able to deliver, I guess, at my price points. While some of them are a really good community and, and you know, they sort of like what I was doing and they're kind of backing me, I think some of them are actually more willing to pay, you know, a higher price point to get the, the perfect barefoot shoe, which, you know, I'm, I'm not able, I can't create a shoe which is going to fit every single child and every single child's style of foot. So some of the barefoot community will, you know, kind of look across all the brands and they'll kind of go, okay, my child has got skinny feet, but got a high end step. Or they've got, you know, really wide feet and a narrow heel or, or, what's that? And I just can't, I couldn't design a shoe which is going to fit every single foot. So actually some of that barefoot community, they really like finding the, the ideal shoe. My ultimate goal, I guess, is actually trying to convert the parents who don't know anything about barefoot shoes or know limited amounts about barefoot shoes. That that's, that's my kind of goal.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:48

That's really interesting. I was just, as you were talking, that was going to be my next question was that, is your audience actually your ideal customers, actually the people who are buying shoes for their children and just don't realize the benefits of barefoot shoes? Well, I guess, uh, and I'd love to know as well, do you think that that's a harder sell because they don't know about the benefits of barefoot shoes, or is it just as tricky? You know, as if you were targeting the barefoot community who have lots of specific requirements of their shoes or it's possibly be, it's possibly the same, but yeah, I guess the actual question probably is, so how are you finding sort of marketing something to people that they perhaps don't yet know they need and need a bit of education on? That's probably a better question.

Iain Moore: 00:24:29

I'll be honest. Finding it very tricky. Um, it definitely hasn't gone exactly the way I would've liked. I am struggling to kind of get my message out there a little bit. Um, because it's, it's not sort of short form information, really, you know, two minutes of information and, you know, I could chat to her parents and they, uh, just basically go, yep, give, you know, here's my money, take it. You know, I want your shoes. When you kind of tell someone about the, you know, the benefits of barefoot shoes, nor to some degree, you know, you look at a bit of common sense and why would you, you know, you look at your child's feet when they're born. And you know, the baby shoes are pretty much barefoot shoes. Why then, you know, do we start getting this narrow pointy two toe box about, you know, two or three years old? You know, and then why is it that so many women, you know, more so later in life that then have bunions and things like that? You know, it is, I think pretty much people would agree that a lot of the bunions and stuff will come from, you know, high heels and being in pointy shoes and stuff like that. And your, your foot just develops and grows like that. I'm trying to make parents' lives easier with what we do as a business. And I'm also just trying to offer them something, which I think actually is a, you know, we are at lower price than Clarks. And I would say, you know, and we have then the, these, uh, sort of the benefits if you like, of, of, you know, sort of health benefits or benefit shoes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:08

I'm not surprised actually that you said it was a bit of a challenge. Because I think whenever you're doing something that's a bit unique, it there is a bit of education involved and it does take a little bit longer. I agree with you though. The fact that your shoes are cheaper than Clarks and cheaper than some of the other High Street stores is probably a big advantage because I think if you were. If you were perhaps creating barefoot shoes to target may maybe, you know, the hardcore barefoot community and therefore shoes that were much higher, more niche, but much higher priced. Yeah. Um, I think that would be a much trickier sell to, you know, most parents who just was say, who want the best for their children, but also want affordable shoes. Yeah. So I guess it sounds, so, it sounds like for the market you are aiming at, it sounds like you've put loads of thought into making sure the price point is right and the, you know, and the shoes are as good as they can be.

Iain Moore: 00:27:03

Yeah, definitely. So that's what, and also I, you know, my wife and I, obviously parents, and so we started. Well, part of the reason we did this, or, or what we wanted as well was make parents' lives easier. So, you know, how can you do that? I mean, everyone hates that battle. I mean, I remember as a kid with my mother, you know, being dragged into Clark's shoes and, you know, there's just kids running, you know, running wild and, and stuff like that. And, you know, it was the sort of the tradition that you go in, you get your feet measured and, and go and get your shoes. People's lives are so busy at the moment. So one of the things which we offer is you can go to our website and buy a foot measurer. We call it our freeish foot measurer. So you can buy one, three pounds, 50, and then you get three pounds 50 deducted off your first order of shoes. So it's basically a free foot measurer. So then you have it at home, so then you can keep measuring your kids' feet and you can pass it on or whatever it might be, but you don't have to go into that battle of trying to find time, trying to drag your kids in, you know, to go and get your school shoes. You can order one, it comes home, measure your kids' feet, order online, and a few days later you've got our shoes through the door. Just trying to make those parents' lives easier.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:14

That's such a good idea because I don't know who hates shoe shopping more me or my kids if I'm honest. And as you say though, is one of those things at the moment you have to do in the shop because you don't know what size feet they are. Yeah. Um, so I think that's brilliant because, I mean, let's face it, a lot of us nowadays are buying online. It's much easier to buy online. But kids' shoes is the thing that usually you can't unless you're prepared to buy an awful lot of shoes and send loads of them back. And actually, I always feel that I want to have my kids' feet measured properly and know their feet are fitted in the shoes properly. Because, you know, you don't want them walking round in shoes that are a bit tight or going to pinch on a certain point or something like that. So, and if you just, you know, if, if the way you're buying them is by ordering lots of pairs and trying them on and crossing your fingers that something's going to fit. Yeah, that's definitely where you can end up.

Iain Moore: 00:29:03

Yeah. Uh, and also I think one of the things which is quite good with our shoes at least, is I'll say the majority of, or the most, most kids absolutely love our shoes because they are so much, you know, they're thinner, they're flexible, and the foot can move more naturally. Kids love them. You know, I had, uh, you know, somewhat jokingly, but I had sort of complaints when we launched the school shoes initially, and we didn't have the trainers out. Like I had joking complaints from parents, you know, demanding that I, I released my trainer sooner because their kids refused to wear their own trainers at the weekends. They would only wear their school shoes because they were the barefoot shoes. And they just found them more comfortable and they, they were asking to go to the park in them, things like that. They just, they're like, no, you know, I don't like putting my trainers on now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:50

That's so interesting, isn't it? That's, that's really interesting that the kids themselves could notice such a big difference because I wasn't sure if it was something where we know it's better, but actually for the child that, you know, there isn't a load of difference. So I. Really, I'm quite blown away by the fact that the kids are noticing that much difference in the, in the way their shoes feel on their feet.

Iain Moore: 00:30:13

Yeah. It, it is really noticeable. The kids love them and yeah, they, they just get that, I think part of it is they get the sensory feedback. You know, if you are in, you know, shoes from the, you know, whatever shop it might be, they have, you know, a huge, chunky sole on them. And they just don't get that sensory feedback from, you know, from the ground or anything. And then, you know, you then kind of wonder, well, why, you know, you stick shoes on your kid and they're just stumbling over and they keep tripping up when they're learning to walk and stuff. And you're like, well, you know, actually, is it, is it because they're learning to walk? Or, it's actually more of it because I've now stuck these, you know, planks on the bottom of their feet, which, which then don't move to their body and they can't really feel the ground. So you're, you know, basically walking around in moon boots.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:59

Yeah, that ma makes, that makes so much sense. And what do your kids think of your shoes? I'm, I'm interested. Do they love them?

Iain Moore: 00:31:05

Uh, yeah. They, yeah, they, they love them. And I I'll be honest, my, my daughter's feet are actually one size too small for my shoes. But, um, yeah, I, I basically just refused to get to get her some different ones. So I stuck her in some of my shoes, the size, when they were a size too big. But she loves them. She liked wearing them. She, she loves, like, there's, um, so with us, we've got a, a smiley face, like in the, uh, what would you call it? Like, um, basically where your heel goes, but it's cut in half. So if you put your shoes together, the children can see an orange, smiley face so they can just start to getting that independence of trying to put, of getting their shoes on the right feet. Because the amount of times when I've been trying to get out the door with my son bef, you know, before he had my shoes and he was like, oh daddy, is this the right way? Is this the right way? Or you go to the park or something, he's saying, but your feet are hurting. You have a look. And he's got banana feet. He's got the shoes on the wrong side. So again, just trying to help parents to help. Well, you've got this sort of smiley face cut in half, so then kids can just kind of learn that independence of getting their own shoes on before they really start to grasp what left and right means. So yeah, she, she really likes doing that. Smiley.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:18

That's so clever because you're right. That is a, that is a massive challenge. And actually sometimes if, when you are, even as an adult, when you're looking at them quickly it's hard to sort of, sometimes you have to pick them up to work out which one goes, well I do, to work out which one goes on which feet unless it's very obvious. So yeah, that's a really good idea. I haven't seen that anywhere. Um, and so when you had, it's just going to go back just very briefly, back to the sort of the, the production side. So once you had samples produced were you trying them on your kids and other kids to see how they fit and how, I'm just curious in how that works, because I guess that that's with any sort of clothing or, or sort of, and footwear, it must be a minefield to sort of make sure that they're, the sizing is right. So how does, how does that work?

Iain Moore: 00:33:02

Um, so, um, so the sizing was to start off with, was done by my shoe designer because there are. You know, he, he knows all of that if you like. Um, so he dealt with the sizes and, and then we had the, um, samples made once the samples were made and we'd sign those off. We then had, um, wear testing samples made and fit testing samples. So then they all got sent to the UK. We sent them off to a, um, I don't know what you'd actually classify as, I guess a, just a, a shoe fitter. So it is a, this lady's job who is just, she gets sent shoes from different brands and things and, and you know, just tries on different kids' feet and, and make sure that they sort of fit, you know, the average sort of kids and they won't rub anywhere or anything once it's past that. Um, we then sent out the wear testers to, well to people everywhere. I had some people up here, I had some people down from where the, the freelance shoe designer was, uh, where Dan was. So we just sent them out to local parents, just did the post on social media and just sort of said, look, we've, we've, you know, got these shoes and does anyone, you know, want to want a free pair of, well, not a free pair, but basically, you know, because we had to get them back. But, um, basically just said, look, you know, would, would anyone like to be involved in, in this process? And, you know, have our shoes for I think probably eight to 12 weeks. I think they had to wear them, then they sent them back and then, you know, little questionnaire, you know, how did the kids find them? Did they complain about, you know, it rubbing anywhere when you looked at their feet, you know, did they get any blisters? And then we can inspect the shoes as well, see how it, they're wearing, um, and everything like that. And yeah, so we went through all that process and yeah, we actually ended up with more, far more requests, a lot more requests actually for the shoes than the number of wear pairs, which we had. As soon as we kind of put this thing out on, um, some of the parent groups and basically said, this is, you know, this is what our shoes do, this is what we're looking at. Does anyone want them? Parents went crazy for them. The difficulty is, in, you know, the Facebook groups or the, you know, buy, swap, sell and or whatever it might be. Or, you know, mum's notice boards and stuff like that on the mum's notice boards. You can't, um, sort of self-publish. I, sorry, I can't self advertise, so I can't go on to mum's groups and basically spam them and go, oh look, this is what our shoes do. This is what they're, you know, this is how good they are for your kids' feet, and so on and so forth. We can't do that, but when we put a post, just saying like, we need some wear testers, which we were allowed to do. Everyone loved the idea.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:52

That's really good. And I think, I guess even though you weren't able to put a past out and say, this is, you know, we're selling these shoes. Yeah. Hopefully you still got some good publicity from that post and also from the people that then tried the shoes and and loved them.

Iain Moore: 00:36:08

Oh, definitely. We had, uh, a good amount of return custom from the people with the wear testers. I mean, it kind of a little bit out of sort of thin air, but I think you'd probably be looking at somewhere around 60 to 80% of the people who you know, did the wear testers, I'd say, and probably more the higher end. They've then all come back and purchased our shoes. So, you know, I, I think that speaks volumes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:34

That really does. And I think that's, that's so smart as well because, you know, we were talking earlier about how it's hard to sort of, not convert people, but you know, to explain to people why they might want to consider barefoot shoes. Um, and it sounds like by actually trying the shoes, they kind of spoke for themselves.

Iain Moore: 00:36:51

Yeah. So also some of what I've been trying to do is when I've been doing some marketing, I've actually always been trying to move away from calling them barefoot shoes. I'm more sort of been trying to sort of use the words of like they're foot friendly or something like that. And then maybe later on down the line, bringing in this sort of comment of barefoot shoes because people might not either understand what barefoot shoes are or they might, you know, to have heard some misinformation about it or whatever it might be. So I just want to make sure that, you know, parents have the sort of best information and they just understand it a bit clearer. And if you say, oh, they're, they're foot friendly, they're, you know, they're good for your kids' feet. I think parents then kind of go, okay, tell me, tell me more.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:38

That makes real sense. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's really smart as well because I think foot friendly is something that we all want for our kids. And as I said, coming back to that graphic, which is the one that kind of really got my attention, sort of, nobody wants to think their kids' toes have all squished up. Shoes that are too tight, you know, if it feels like that, it just makes total sense. But you're right, when you think of barefoot shoes, I think also some people who do know about them might have other, you know, might have other views because they might think of them as being, you know, like those flashy running trainers I was talking about earlier. Or they might think it's you know, it's not something for children or, I think it's, it's hard, isn't it? So I think you're right. Fit friend. That's really smart actually. So to, to kind of pitch them in that way. Yeah. Um, cause I know, cause there will also be people actually said who have sort of a, a poor perception of barefoot shoes for various reasons.

Iain Moore: 00:38:30

Oh, definitely. I mean, years ago was, I say ye uh, was, I want to say somewhere around 2010, 2012, there was a book which came out called Born to Run. And lots of runners read it and they, you know, thought, wow, this is basically about running barefoot and things. And they're like, brilliant. I need this. I'm going to go out and buy some barefoot shoes. I'm going to start running in barefoot shoes. And they basically go from running a normal trainers to barefoot shoes within like six weeks or something, and like a year later. Um, they end up, you know, their knees are knackered or you know, something somewhere has gone wrong and they end up going, well, you know, it's, it's because of barefoot shoes. They've gone back to normal sort of running shoes if you like, but again, that's because you've adapted, you know, everything is adapted to wearing sort of traditional shoes like the, the whole running gate, you know, running with a, a heel. Which, you know, isn't such a natural way to run really. If you, if you run barefoot, you know, everyone almost, you know, majority of people just automatically change to a midfoot slash four foot, four foot strike because otherwise it, you know, jars your whole body trying to run barefoot, you know, with a heel strike it, it sort of jolts you. So people automatically change to, to, you know, sort of barefoot gate when they run without anything like them. We, we, we just don't want people to kind of get converted into the, you know, traditional shoes, which can be harmful for, for people's feet.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:59

Yeah. And I'm actually. A little bit embarrassed to tell you that that book is the reason I started wearing barefoot trainers. Although I was fairly sensible, I think as in I went for a shoe that wasn't completely barefoot. Um, back then, I think you're right, it was maybe 10 years ago, something like that, you could sort of get varying degrees of padding, you know, so you could gradually you know, you could go sort of slightly less cushioned and sort of work your way down, which was the approach that I took. Yeah. Um, for fear of Yeah. Some sort of injury. Yeah. That was funny when you said that because I thought, oh yeah, that's exact book, that, that made me decide that might be a good idea. It's funny, isn't it? How things can just be a bit of a fad. And you're right, that if for someone who read that book 10 years ago, they might completely see it as a fad or a trend and something that, you know past It's, yeah, so I think your right foot friendly is definitely, that's makes more sense and it's a much clearer message, I think as well.

Iain Moore: 00:40:56

Yeah, I mean it's a similar time I think as well. That's when the, the, the vivo five fingers came v not vivo, uh, Vibram, five fingers. I don't know if you've seen those there, like there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:06

Yes.

Iain Moore: 00:41:07

Yes. But then, so when you say barefoot, when I've just been talking to, to other people who, you know, don't know about sort of our shoes or anything, and they say about barefoot shoes and like, oh, is that those weird, like, is that those weird ones where you've got the, the like foot gloves and like, no, that's, that is a barefoot company, but that's not what barefoot shoes are. So again, I don't want people to sort of have this misconception. Um, and again, there's like you said, just the, the, the amount of misinformation which there, there can be out there about footwear. I, I don't want people to have sort of that, the stigmatized idea of, of barefoot shoes. So yeah, I'm just trying to go with, you know, with, with foot friendly, you know.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:49

And that's what they are. Because as you said earlier, some of the barefoot shoes can look a bit different. So you averaged shoes, but your shoes have shoes that look like shoes that kids and parents would choose. I mean, I guess from the outside, they're, they look exactly the same. I mean, I've seen your products on your website, they look like every other pair of shoes. And I mean that in a, in a positive way. Yeah. You know, they don't, they don't stand out. And I think that's kind of, that's really important. So I definitely think that for the audience, you know, you are trying to sell these to, I definitely think they're pitched perfectly.

Iain Moore: 00:42:22

Yeah. So that was one of the things which actually was exactly what you wanted, was where you said they don't stand out. That's exactly what I wanted. I didn't, you know, they, our, our shoes are going to stand out and be different because they're barefoot shoes. So the rest of it, I actually want them to look generic, which, you know, I'm, I'm glad to, to hear to some degree that we are achieving.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:43

That's brilliant. And um, so I've just got one final question before we finish, if that's okay ing. Because I want to be really mindful of your time. Yeah. So my final question is, what is your number one piece of advice for other product creators?

Iain Moore: 00:42:56

So I've been trying to actually give this some thought and I don't know. If I could say that, you know, I'm definitely not far enough down the line to be saying this is what other people should be doing. But I can definitely say what has worked well for me. And I would say if you're trying to make a decision, you're never going to be a hundred percent sure. So for me, I was trying to get to, am I about 75% sure this is the right decision? And if it is, that's my threshold, and then I go, fine, let's go. Because otherwise you can just drag things out for so long trying to find the perfect, you know, answer to what, you know, the perfect shoe design or, or whatever it might be. Whereas actually I'm like, nope. Is it 75% there? Yes, good. That's good enough for me. And then I'll start doing whatever it is and if it doesn't work, and it just means you've learned faster and you know, so, you know, when. I'll give you an example. When we first launched, because everyone has to been mindful of, of the environments and stuff, we, we wrapped our shoes to post them out in, um, paper with sort of nice, um, eco paper tape on top. And it was like, yep, this is the way I'm going. You know, 75%, I'm sure that this is the right option. And we started. And within a couple of weeks I was like, nope, it doesn't work. Uh, just because of the amount of time, even though it was, you know, I mean it was, this has taken me sort of, you know, 40 seconds I think to wrap up, uh, just a box by itself. But even still, when you're posting so many, it didn't work. But rather than spending ages and everything getting delayed, I made the decision. I started going down that path and I just learnt faster that it did, does or doesn't work. And yeah, that, that's something which has really helped.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:45

That's really great advice. Thank you. Because I think, I, I think you're right that sometimes, you know, you can procrastinate or yeah, spend a long time thinking about the, some of the smaller details, which I'm not saying they're not important, but like, you know, like you've just said, you can, you can change, you can make a decision then a weeks or days or even hours later go do you know what, actually, I think I'll do it a bit differently and that's fine. So I think that's, I think that's really, I mean, that's really great practical advice for everything actually.

Iain Moore: 00:45:12

Yeah. Well, I'm, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think I actually nabbed it off Barack Obama. I, um, I, I heard him talking about something, about making a decision, and he, I'm sure he said it was something like, I think 80 or 60%, whatever his number was. It was like, no, you're never going to have a hundred percent of the information. This is my threshold. I hit that and then I make, I go with it. So, if it was good enough for him, then I'm sure it'll be all right for me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:35

I mean, that's really good. Thank you so much and thank you so much for everything you've shared. Um, yeah, I loved hearing more about your journey and your products and a bit about barefoot shoes as well. So thank you so much.

Iain Moore: 00:45:47

Okay, perfect. Well, thank you very much for your time.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:49

You're welcome. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vicki weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.