Pivoting your business – with Kate Smith – the Makery

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice, as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hi, today on the podcast, I'm talking to Kate Smith from The Makery. Kate set up The Makery in 2009 on a mission to teach the world how to craft. Fast forward 14 years, two books, a Dragon's Den appearance, an internationally distributed product range, and nearly 150, 000 customers having attended her craft workshops and events. Kate is now dedicating much of her time to helping other creative entrepreneurs achieve their full potential and run successful businesses doing what they love. So, we had a fascinating conversation, as you can probably guess from that brief intro. Kate, um, has done a lot in the past, or I can't really think how many years that is, but in the past couple of years, she's done a lot. She has a lot to share with us, um, a lot she's learned, and we also talk about what she's doing now to support other entrepreneurs, and particularly those in creative businesses. So I would love now to introduce you to Kate. So hi Kate, thank you so much for being here.

Kate Smith: 00:01:15

It's my pleasure, thank you for having me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:18

Can we start with you please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you're doing right now and then we'll go backwards from there.

Kate Smith: 00:01:25

Sure, um, so my name is Kate Smith and I set up The Makery in 2009. I'm kind of on a mission to teach as many people how to craft as I possibly could. Um, what I'm doing now is after lots of things in between, um, there's three pillars really to my business now. So the first thing I spend a lot of my time doing is consultancy. So I help large, usually quite large creative businesses, um, achieve whatever goals they want to achieve. So whether it's supporting them with marketing and their teams, whether it's working on PR, whether it's helping them do a lot around education, um, all sorts of things. And that's the great thing because I've had my own business for quite a long time. I can be quite agile with what I help them with. So that's great fun. Um, I also have a really large, wonderful team of my I think we're up to about 56 now, all amazing crafters dotted all over the country, and we host lots of creative workshops and events and team building and things like that. Um, anything from working, doing kind of creative workshops in retail to hosting team building activities for all sorts of different companies. So that's brilliant as well. And then I also work with lots of small creative entrepreneurial businesses, um, and do similarly to what I do with large businesses, but basically just help them build, um, you know, gain success through doing what they love. So whether that's, um, one to one coaching, um, or I also have like a six week course that I wrote and launched two to three times a year to try and help as many people as possible, um, yeah, progress their businesses and, and enjoy success.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:13

Oh, thank you so much for that introduction. And yeah, you, you definitely do a lot, Kate. And the reason I, I specifically said, talk about what you do now is because you do such a lot. And I know you've had a really interesting journey since 2009 as well. And there's been a lot that you've done during that time. Some of which of course you've built on and some of which, um, I guess you're not doing anymore. So do you want to talk a little bit about this, about the makery and the store and the story of it? Because I think it's genuinely really interesting.

Kate Smith: 00:03:40

Um, well, I was working in, uh, like film, media, TV, advertising, things like that, um, in London and I loved it, but I just always thought I had my own business in me. So, um, went traveling for a bit, did lots of brainstorming and everything just kept coming back to the fact that I love, I've always loved crafting and I wanted to teach as many other people how powerful that can be as well. Um, so moved out of Bath, moved out to Bath out of London, um, and just set up the makery. Um, yeah, in 2009, crazy, like about a few months after we got married and I think we got the keys to the business. Uh, about 10 weeks before our first child was born, which is soft in the case of people who are in their own businesses. You do everything all at once. Um, so it was crazy time, but very exciting. Um, yeah, so opened up Makery, um, had like launched the website and just wanted to teach people. So I was running workshops and, um, a lot, quite a lot of hen parties as well. And it was great fun. Um, I did a lot of work on my kind of brand vision at the very beginning. So it was really, really important to me that I felt, um, current and relevant to quite a mainstream audience. I never wanted to be, um, to just appeal to crafters and people who, I wanted to just teach as many people as I could. So I worked really hard to appeal to a broad audience. Um, and thankfully that work paid off. So things happened really quickly. Uh, I think the first thing that happened was we got, um, a book deal with a really lovely high profile publisher. So that was like a dream come true. So I wrote my first crafty book. Um, and then before that was published, um, we got a phone call from the BBC asking if we wanted to be on Dragon's Den. And I was just at that point saying yes to everything. So said yes to that. Because I thought that would be incredible PR, um, which it was. So that was a big thing. And then I think the night after that got published, um, was on TV, the first book got launched, which was funny. So that just sold out on Amazon, which was a bit of a surprise. My web company told me off for not warning them about that. Um, and then off the back of that. Um, we didn't get investment, which was fine. We didn't particularly go for investment, um, on Dragon's Den, but we got a lot of phone calls after that from companies wanting to invest or just work with us. So we ended up, um, signing a licensing deal with a company who we worked with for quite a few years, making a range of Makery kits and products. That was amazing. Again, a lovely dream come true. Um, and they had amazing distribution. So our products were all over the place. So that was brilliant. Um, and throughout all of this time, I was kind of growing the business as well, kind of on the ground. So we moved premises a couple of times. We also opened a shop. Um, we were doing a lot of hen parties as well as the workshops. So we, um, had a really large premises in the center of Bath and we'd also started working with other retailers. So we're working with John Lewis in London and nationally hosting workshops with them in their space. Um, Yeah. So it just kind of grew and grew. And then we started doing quite a lot of B2B stuff as well. So we were doing workshops and events, not just for people, but also for businesses as well. Um, yeah, that's kind of, that all happened. Um. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:41

Take a breath now because that's, that's a lot. You've done so much, Kate. Um, and that's, that's why I think your story is so interesting because I think, you know, since 2009, you've done so many things. I think it's just really useful for people to hear that businesses can evolve and change and you can grow on what you've done. You can also leave things behind if you decide they're not working.

Kate Smith: 00:08:04

Exactly. So, so to be honest, it, all, everything that I did was customer facing was relied on people being in front of people. So when COVID happened, everything changed for us. Um, there was another big thing that happened actually prior to that. So actually Brexit had quite a big impact on the business as well, which I could maybe talk about in a little while, but COVID was obviously the big thing. So all of a sudden, all of our activity, pretty much was just ground to a very, very quick halt. Um, and that actually has, I was, I was deliberating whether to talk about this with you. I don't know if I've mentioned it to you before, but, um, I so we had issues with an old big building that we'd had, which I'm definitely not going to go into. But ultimately, um, we were asked to cover some money for that old building. And I was just like, well, no, we can't afford to do that. Like all my businesses stops. I'm trying to pivot. So we ended up liquidating the old business, which is something that was really terrifying. And really, I felt like a huge failure at the time. I was like, oh my gosh, what it's all been for nothing. Um, and I went through a small, short period of, I guess it was grief really. Um, but actually it was, it's made me so much stronger and I have learned so much from that experience and it's all fine. And I picked myself up and rebuilt it again, not from scratch because I'd already done loads of the work, but I was really reassured by everybody. I was working with this. They were like, we're not working with that business. We're working with you and we want to continue to work with you. And it was really amazing. And so I wanted to mention that because often you think you're faced with such challenges and you're working on your own and you, um, is your, you can be quick to feel like you've just done something awful, but actually, honestly, it was a really, really amazing experience in hindsight and it's given me so much. So, um, so yeah, so as a result of COVID, I completely pivoted the business and then I went online really. And then since then I've built it up again with the three channels that I talked about at the beginning, and that's where I am now. So it's changed massively over the years. Um, yeah, but it all feels like it's been the right thing at the right time. It's funny.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:24

Am I right in thinking that you don't have any physical premises now? Is that correct?

Kate Smith: 00:10:28

Yeah, that's right. So I just have my office here at home in the garden, and then I do have another office where I store the... boxes and boxes of stuff that we need to carry out what we do. Um, and then everything with all the teams is done online. We, I feel very close to them. It's weird. Some of them I've still probably not even met, even though I feel like they're some of my best friends. It's really funny, but that's, I guess, a legacy of COVID as well, isn't it? Like everybody's very comfortable talking on video calls and things. So yeah, no, no physical premises now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:02

Was that a result of COVID or had that happened prior to that?

Kate Smith: 00:11:05

Actually, it's funny. So it had kind of happened prior to that, really. Um, so I was paying all this money, ridiculous amounts of money for these premises in Bath. And it's a really, it's, it's, um, it's quite a heavy weight to bear, especially when you're in a, you know, UNESCO city and all the buildings are listed. And, um, and it was very, very expensive. And I was. Also, at the same time, hosting workshops in John Lewis on Oxford Street and not paying any rent and thinking, oh, hang on a minute, I need to think about this in a bit more of a clever way. Retailers are really desperate to drive people, the right people into store to spend time and have an experience. And whilst they're there, they always spend more money on other things because they're having a really nice time. So I, um, walked away from all the premises and I just started working with retailers, um, all around the country and all different sorts of businesses and just helping them and helping me. And it's, yeah, so, so that's how we've operated since, or golly, I don't know when, probably about 2018, I think. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:20

That was actually quite good timing then.

Kate Smith: 00:12:22

Oh yeah. Tell me about it. I know.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:25

I guess otherwise you could have been in position, perhaps paying rent on a building that you couldn't use for.

Kate Smith: 00:12:30

Yeah. No, we, we, something dramatic would have had to have happened. So yeah, you know, as long as you work hard and you're sensible and do your research. I do, I'm a firm believer that things work out for the best. Um, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:47

Before we move on, let's talk about the other challenge you touched on a moment ago, which is Brexit. So let's um, let's get all the challenges out of the way.

Kate Smith: 00:12:54

Yeah. So that was, um, so up until then, 2016, most of our income was hen parties. Um, so we had this big, like five story building in the center of Bath and we were hosting loads of workshops. We also had a licensing deal, so we had income from our product range, um, and various other little things as well, but the bulk was hen party. So we were doing, I think we were turning over up to like £30, 000 a month just in hen parties. So it was really good, of course, busy. Um, and then all of a sudden Brexit happened and I hadn't thought about this at all, but people just stopped making big, important life decisions. Things came to a bit of a standstill in kind of wedding y hen party type, or they stopped spending money on those kinds of experiences. And it just pretty much stopped dead, which was a real shock to me. So I always knew that I needed to not rely just on one channel for the business. And I tried to spread things out as much as I could, but hen parties was definitely the, um, the main source of income. So for that to stop all of a sudden was quite scary. Um, and we did pivot, we did change and it was okay. Um, and actually, do you know what? Doing hen parties was probably my least favorite aspect of what we did as well. I mean, I did love it. It was really great because you had people come in and they weren't expecting to learn a new crafty skill and they go away really delighted, but it wasn't the same experience as having somebody coming in really, really wanting to learn a new skill. You know. It was a different experience. Um, so yeah, so when that went from about up to about 30, 000 pounds a month down to, I think, an average of four, I was like, whoa, the reason I've got this huge building is to accommodate all of these hens. What am I going to do? So that's the reason we left the building and we started to change the business model. Um, because this unexpected thing happened to the nation and it actually affected us as well. It was funny. Like, yeah, it was, it was scary, but it was okay. Because we had other pillars to build on. So yeah, I'd say they've been the two biggest, um, shocks to us.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:20

Well, thank you for sharing those. And the reason I wanted to ask that, um, really generally, thank you for sharing, is just to kind of reiterate what we were saying before that, that especially the longer you're in business, I think the more likely you are to come up against things that challenge you or kind of set you off on a different course. Um, and it's really interesting to hear how you've overcome that and how your business has changed as a result of that. And I think that's really reassuring. And actually I say the longer you're in business, I guess, you know, for lots of us, it happens sooner as well. Um, you can't really tell when these things are coming.

Kate Smith: 00:15:53

Yeah, I mean, I am. Um, and I know that a lot of what if you're entrepreneurial, you're kind of that way inclined as anyway, you kind of, you'll want your solution driven. So you'll want to find a way around a problem that you're faced with. Um, and I do relish that sometimes, but obviously, if it's a really huge issue, then it takes a bit more out of you, but I honestly, every single time something like that has happened to me or the business, I have, you, that's the best way to learn. If you're out so far of your comfort zone and you're pushed to the very limits. It's, it's a learning experience like no other, you know, no one wants to really just kind of plod on and do the same thing day in day out and not push themselves and not learn and not expand what they're doing. And, and it's not fun at the time when these challenges happen, but, um, oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm, I'm so much stronger and I'm better at what I do, I think now and more able to work with other people because we've definitely, I've been very, very low at times when these things have happened and you know, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:05

Well thank you for sharing all of that. And I'd like to change the subject slightly if that's okay, talk a little bit about your craft kits because you mentioned those earlier. Um, so obviously that was a, they, they're a physical product that you were selling. Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about how they came about?

Kate Smith: 00:17:23

Yeah. So it was kind of a natural progression, really. Um, I had a shop and I was teaching people how to craft. So I was like, I should make kits so that I can sell those in the shop that people can purchase as well. So I started doing it myself, literally on the kitchen table. I've got visions of having a little production line set up on the kitchen table, putting the kits together. And then we got the phone call from Dragon's Den asking to go on. And I was like, oh, perfect. I can go on with the kits and say, and that, that would be a really nice, neat thing to ask for investment for. And actually it would, it's valid as well. I'd love for these kits to be sold all over the place. So it was really nice timing. Um, so I went on with these kits. They looked lovely. A designer friend of ours put these really nice packages together. Um, so I think we had a range of about six or something and we were selling them in the shop, but it was all very much done in house. Um, yes, we went on Dragon's Den, which is literally one of the most terrifying experiences of my whole life. Um, but great as well. Um, and they, yeah, so we were talking about the kits and it was really lovely. And then it literally, the Monday after that was on air. Yeah. The phone just didn't stop ringing. It was really exciting. And lots of people just asking if they could work with us. And one of the companies was a really lovely company local to us. They were just on the same street actually, although I didn't really know them. Um, and so we decided to go with them. And the reason we went with them was because what I talked about earlier with having a really strong, strong direction and vision for the brand and knowing that I wanted my kids to be in John Lewis and anthropology and garden centers and all different sorts of places. I didn't want them just to be in, you know, Kate's crafty craft shop, wherever, you know, I wanted them to be mainstream. Um, and I wanted to try and get as many people to love crafting as much as I do. So that's the reason I went with this company, which was called, I don't think they exist anymore, but they were called wild and wealth because they were very much design led. So everything that they worked from looked beautiful and they had incredible distribution as well. So it meant that they could quite easily get our kits into all the right types of places. So it was a really good way of going about things because they had all this amazing expertise and infrastructure to put these kits together for us. And we, um, and it was a licensing deal. So we got royalties for every single kit that they sold. And because their volumes were big. Um, I don't know how many retailers they sold the kits in, but it was thousands internationally. Um, it meant that it was a really good way of us achieving that goal. Um, yeah, it was brilliant. It was really good fun. Um, and it didn't last forever. Like it was probably lasted about five or six years, I think. Um, But that felt right. It felt like the right time to stop that. We'd kind of got the kits out there then. And yeah, it was, it was great.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:40

Yeah. And that's really interesting. It's a really interesting way. So what these companies say, they, do they put their, I'm trying to work out what you would even call them. So did they, they put the kits together? And.

Kate Smith: 00:20:51

Yeah, so they worked with, so we were the only kind of unknown brand that they worked with really. So usually, let me try and think. So they worked with like Orla Kieley and um, like Scrabble, I think maybe Paddington, like very big brands. Um, and they would design and make the products that you sell. The v n a, that was a nice one that they worked with. The products that, those brands, that had, that tho those brands, you know, images or branding on or whatever. Um, and so they, I think we were helped by the fact that we were on the same street as them and that we had, um, this vision. We already had a really nice, really nice brand guidelines. The logo is really lovely. It was really fun and there was definitely an appetite. So that was, that was probably in like 2011. So back then crafting wasn't as big as it is now. It was before, certainly no sewing bee on telly or anything like that. It wasn't, it was, it was more fusty than it is now. There were slightly more, yeah, like fusty kind of connotations just with craft. So, um, but they could see that there was an appetite for it. So that's why they took a bit of a punt on us. Um, and we were delighted that they did that. So yeah, so what they did was I would work with them. So I would come up with ideas of kits that I thought would do well. Um, and it wasn't just kits. It was things like our own branded pots of pins and buttons and sewing scissors and ribbons and on these lovely wooden spools with like our logo burnt into the top. It was really nice stuff. Um, so I would come up with ideas around products that I think would do well. They would put that through their department of, um, you know, product experts and see if what they agreed that they could put a range together for. So there was usually like a bit of a theme with each launch. Um, and then so whether it was more kind of like making your own fashion accessories one time, whatever. Um, and then they would obviously do all the work with their factories and find out if they could get all of this, the supplies for it, then they would design it. So I had sign off on absolutely everything. It was so exciting. So every week I'd get like a new box with maybe different colours of ribbon, sign off and things. So I just got all the fun jobs. Um, and they did all the work using all of their, all of their infrastructure. And then, um, yeah. And then they'd launch them and we'd start getting royalty checks. So it worked really, really well for us. Doesn't work for everybody with that way, but it, I was really, it really delighted with how that deal worked out. It was brilliant. Yeah. It got us a lot of exposure as well. It kind of pushed us onto the next level because the distribution was so good. We were, we were in a lot of places.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:46

That was a licensing deal. Is that correct?

Kate Smith: 00:23:48

Yes, exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. I get, I forget who's the licensee and who's the licensor, but we are one or the other. And they're the other one.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:57

That's really interesting though, because I haven't spoken to anyone who's, he's, who launched a product in that way, so that's really interesting to hear about.

Kate Smith: 00:24:04

It was, to be honest, it was the only way that, we'd never have been able to achieve that scale. So the amount of money that was tied up in stock, we couldn't have spent that kind of money. Um, whereas they did, they had that clout. Um, and also the di the economies of scale with them purchasing and the volumes that they were purchasing meant that the price points were much better. So, um, I could never, I, I'd have carried on doing the kits and I might have managed to brand up some little pots of pins and things, but it would have never have been as profitable and as large scale as it was with them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:48

Yeah, that makes sense. When you were talking about some of the items, I was thinking, so things like the ribbon and pins and things like that, I don't know what the margins are like, but I imagine if you're sourcing as an individual that they're not going to be great if you know, realistically. So it sounds like because they had that economy of scale, that everything was just much more manageable, because I think that there might've been products, had you been doing this yourself where you just said, actually, that isn't feasible for the effort or the money or whatever it's going to take. Actually, that's not a feasible product for me to sell. So it sounds like such a big range as well.

Kate Smith: 00:25:25

So yeah, when you're doing everything yourself, you have to question every product don't you. Is this viable? Am I going to make money from it? Am I spending too much money on just making it look nice? Yeah. Is it, is it viable? Yeah. And I didn't have to make those kinds of decisions with them. I just decide, I just put ideas forward as to what I thought would work for us and for them. And then together we came up with, um, yeah, with, with all this range of product, honestly, it was so like, you know, walking into Liberty and John Lewis and seeing this display. Oh, I cried so much. So many times when I'd go in and see things, it was really exciting. Really exciting.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:10

Yeah. Amazing. I can totally understand. I think that's, yeah. Yeah. That is really exciting. And Yeah. I think it's amazing that, um, how lucky, you know, that, not lucky, but it's not fortuitous that, you know, you said yes to the opportunities that came your way that then put you in front of people that then led to this company contacting you. Because you would speak early about saying yes to everything. And then I think this is an example where I guess all those yeses led up to this.

Kate Smith: 00:26:39

Yeah, that was very much my mindset at the beginning was I just said yes to everything and there were plenty of things that I said yes to that I really shouldn't have done, but I learned quite quickly what was, well, not every time, but what sounded like a better proposition than others. Yeah. It's funny, but it's, but thinking about that, so that, so, you know, if you've got somebody who hadn't, whose brand values are in handmade goods, isn't that kind of licensing sale is never going to work. Whereas for me, it wasn't about, it was just, I just wanted to get as many people making as possible and as many people experiencing the joy of making things yourself. So that was the way for me to do it. So it's not right for everybody, but, um, yeah. It's maybe an option that people don't think about, but it is sometimes worth it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:26

I think you're right. And it's about knowing, as you say, coming back to your brand values and knowing what you're trying to achieve.

Kate Smith: 00:27:33

Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:35

Are you selling any kits at the moment or did that completely stop?

Kate Smith: 00:27:39

No, that stopped. You, the odds, every now and then I do a little, like, because I don't have copies of every single thing that we did. And sometimes I think, oh, that's sad, I'd like one of those, you know, to give to my grandchildren one day or whatever. It's very crafty. Um, so every now and then I'll do a little search on eBay and find something and get it. It's so funny. But, um, no, we don't sell any, I don't do any product, retail product stuff now at all. Actually, it's all service driven completely for now. You never know.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:13

No, you never, and I get the feeling that yeah, things will evolve. And if I speak to you again in a couple of years, I'm sure things will have changed. So that leads on really nicely then. So let's talk a little bit about how you're using all of this experience and everything that you've done over the years to support other creative businesses.

Kate Smith: 00:28:31

Yeah, that it's been a real, that happened after COVID. And, um, I didn't realize, so I didn't, I was a bit bruised by everything that happened during COVID and I didn't, it was important that I just, I took a slightly different tack. Um, and I started getting a few phone calls and emails from people that I'd worked with. So a lot of people had come, like most of my team over the years, over those, I don't know, 14 years, whatever, have been people who, um, like making their own products or, you know, they've got creative businesses or side hustles or whatever size they might be as well. And they'd come and maybe teach workshops for me, um, or work in the shop or do whatever. So after COVID, I started getting phone calls and emails from those types of people saying, oh, can you help? I just feel a bit like I need some guidance and you, you're further along on the path than what maybe I am. Um, and I was like, yeah, of course I can help. I would love to help you. And so I realized really quickly how much joy that now brought me. So I, I'd kind of, um, achieved and certainly haven't finished achieving, but teaching people how to make things. And now I still do that, but through the team. So I've got the wonderful team who teach people craft all over the country every week. Um, but I did feel like I needed something different myself and that definitely came to me by helping other creative entrepreneurs, usually female, but not always, um, grow their own creative businesses as well. And, um, yeah, I, I've become a bit addicted to it. Actually. I love it. So I do a bit of one to one stuff with people now and then, um, well, most weeks. Um, and then I also have got a course. So I went on, um, really incredible small business course about seven years ago, run by Goldman Sachs, um, which was a really, really great experience for me. And it gave me a lot of confidence because I just always used to think, oh, people just probably imagine that I play with glitter all day long. And I definitely don't. Like I'm generally behind my computer and, you know, spreadsheets and whatever. Um, And, and that made me realize that my business was just as, um, important as all of their more serious businesses, ist' what I thought of them as in my head. And so I, um, I thought, you know what, I could help so many people who might be feeling like that as well with all the experience, all the ups, all the downs, all the wins, all the losses, um, and just helped kind of steer them on their way. So yeah, I wrote a course as well. So six week course helping, um, small businesses, just giving them confidence, getting more clarity around their branding, around their marketing, maybe what they're working on. Um, and just being a nice pair of ears or a sounding board for them to bounce ideas off because it can be so isolating working on your own and not having somebody be your cheerleader or help motivate you or answer to, you know. Um, so that's kind of how that works really, which is just, I just love it. I love it so much. Um, and that's, that's what really motivates me now. So I still love doing all the other bits of the business too, but that's what brings me the most joy. Seeing other, seeing all of these lessons that I've learned maybe help some other people gain success as well. It's really so rewarding.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:19

Is that creative businesses you're working with?

Kate Smith: 00:32:21

They're pretty much all, yeah, they are. They're not all crafty. They are mostly crafty, but there's a couple of other types, but they're all creative. So, um, for example, there's a business that, um, sells secondhand children's clothes and they are, they happen to be extremely creative people. So they go about their business in a very creative way. And our brains are quite similar. Um, and where, but, but most of the business are creative in some way. So whether it is, oh, golly, all sorts, people who make things to sell, people who host workshops of their own, people have like, um, online, uh, crafty retail spaces, um, content creator, all sorts of different people.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:06

Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, it's great. I had thought initially that you were going to say it was mostly crafters, maybe people who are crafting and then selling their products. It's really interesting to hear like the breadth of creative businesses.

Kate Smith: 00:33:20

Yeah. Yeah, I don't, uh, so what I usually do, so certainly with the one to one stuff is we have a conversation, a lengthy conversation, first of all, so that, um, I can understand exactly what direction they feel like they want to go in and what, where, how they've got to where they are. And then vice versa, they'll almost be sort of interviewing me really. And if they feel like I'm the right person for them to work with. So, and usually it's right because otherwise I think people, if you're out there online, chatting on Instagram or whatever, they feel like they kind of know you a little bit. So I don't think they'd come to me if they didn't think we could work together. Um, but with the course. I don't know, obviously, um, when they, they'll sign up and I don't know at the very beginning what types of business they are, but it has turned out to be, yeah, quite, there's always a link. It's always creative people. And there's always, there's usually some kind of link back to craft in some way, but that can take quite a few different guises. It's interesting.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:34:22

That's interesting. And I'd love to just get a little bit of advice on you if that's okay, Kate, to finish. Um, and I know that there's probably so much you could say here. Um, so, you know, you can, you can share as little, as much as you want, but what's some advice that you would have for other creative business owners based on, you know, you've had so much experience with running creative businesses with products. So I know it's a really wide question. So I'm going to, I'm going to leave it to you with what you'd like to share, like the key things you'd like people to take away.

Kate Smith: 00:34:54

Yeah. Well, I did, I did think long and hard about the best nugget that I felt I could share. And it's funny, it would probably be different if you asked me next week to what it is this week. You know, it's funny what's going on at the moment in your life. But, um, I think it's something that I've spoken about quite a lot today. And that, so especially if you're creative, you will never be short of ideas and you'll always think of new things that you would like to create or chase. Um, and I think there's two lessons there. So firstly, it is of vital importance that you, um, don't just have one pillar, but don't just rely on one thing in your business. You've got to have multiple. So I think of it like, say if it was a table, the table would be really, really wobbly if it just had one leg. And if that leg fell down, it would just fall over straight away. If it had two legs, or it's still going to be really, really wobbly. You've got three. Okay. We've got a bit of stability here. Um, if you've got four, great. And you don't want too many. I think four is nice. Um, I've got kind of, I actually do have four. One, the fourth one is quite small, but it's still there and I could grow it if I needed to. But, um, as long as you've got multiple pillars propping your business up, if something goes wrong that you're not expecting, and that might be something like cost material, cost of materials suddenly shoots up unexpectedly, or, um, I don't know the subscription or the fees on some kind of something that you subscribe to suddenly goes up hugely, or it might be something like Brexit or COVID. Um, but if you've got multiple pillars, your chance of evolving and pivoting and survival is so much greater. So, um, so it's really, really important to just not rely on one thing. And also like at the beginning, I think I was. It was going really well from the start. So I got to, I was probably quite, um, complacent right at the start. I thought, oh, oh no, it's fine. We're going to be fine. And, um, but no, anything could happen and you just never know. So that's the first thing, but also. So make sure that each of those pillars is viable. So again, it's stuff that we've talked about today. So do your research. Is there an appetite for it? Is it something that is going to drain your resources in terms of your time, which is your most valuable resource, um, and, and leave you with no profit at the end of it, or is it something that you can, um, you can make viable and you can make profitable and you're going, and it's going, you know, it's going to grow and be of interest to your audience. So just make sure you do that research at the start before you've maybe worn yourself out making something and invested in something. Um, uh, so yeah, so multiple pillars And make sure they're all, you can trust them all. That's my best advice for today.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:46

That's really good advice. Thank you. And I'm sure that advice you'd have tomorrow would be really good as well, because you're right. I think what I, I feel this most people I speak to, I think depending what's going on in your life and your business now, that's kind of what comes up.

Kate Smith: 00:38:00

Yeah. I do. It's funny. It's always, yes, you're influenced by everything going on around you, aren't you? Or what might have happened, a win or a loss that might have happened that day or whatever. Um, but yeah, that's today's advice.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:14

That's really good advice. Thank you so much, Kate. And thank you for everything you've shared.

Kate Smith: 00:38:18

Oh, thank you. It's lovely chatting to you. Hopefully, um, people find it useful and enjoy the story a little bit.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:27

I'm sure they will. Thank you.

Kate Smith: 00:38:29

Pleasure.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:32

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website vickiweinberg. com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.