Paperchase owes me over £22,000 – with Angela Chick

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas To Life podcast, practical advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host Vicki Weinberg. Today on the podcast I'm speaking to Angela Chick. Angela is an illustrator and designer with a love for color and kindness. She, she creates unique gifts and greeting cards for people who care about other people. So I first heard about Angela on a post by Holly Tucker, where she was talking about the fact that Paperchase, owed Angela 22,000 pounds. Um, I dunno about you, but I didn't know that Paperchase had gone into administration. And I can imagine what that meant to some of the small businesses that supplied them. And Angela has really bravely, I think, agreed to come on and share her story with us. Um, we talk about other things as well. Um, but this is a big part of the conversation and, um, really interesting, really eye-opening and she also talks about things that small businesses can do to protect themselves going forward. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Angela. So hi Angela. Thank you so much for being here.

Angela Chick: 00:01:19

Thank you for inviting me, Vicki.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:21

Oh, you are so welcome. Could you please start by giving introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell?

Angela Chick: 00:01:26

Absolutely. So my name is Angela Chick. I am an illustrator and designer and I run my own gift business, um, where I sell products that I put my illustrations on. Everything's nice and bright and colorful, um, for lots of gifts for friends.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:46

Thank you for that. And looking at your messages I've, um, your website, sorry. I think all the messages on your products are really positive as well. That's the sense that I get. It's like a really, yeah, upbeat, positive place.

Angela Chick: 00:01:57

Yeah. Doing my best to help people spread kindness and show that they're thinking of others.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:04

That's really nice. So can we start by talking about how your business got started please?

Angela Chick: 00:02:09

Um, yes. Well, it's, it's kind of hard to say where the exact starting point was, but, um if anyone's ever read my bios that I share online they'll know that when I was eight years old, I'd said I wanted to be a starving artist or an entrepreneur. I probably said entrepreneurial or something because I didn't quite, I, I mean, I also thought that starving artist was literally the job title, uh, for artists because I, I didn't, I didn't get at that point that you could make a living from doing art, although it is rare, I suppose. And it definitely takes a lot of hard work. Um, I was very creative all through school. I spent a lot of time in the art room. Then when I went on to university, I decided that I had to, I first I started, um, sort of a fine art and graphic design, mixed degree, and it wasn't quite, for me. I was a lot more crafty at the time. And then I swapped over, started doing a textile and furniture design degree, um, which I really loved. I was making everything out of fabric anyway at the time. Um, but I was always being told that I drew too much. And I came to move over to the UK. You can probably tell I'm not, um, well, I was born here, but not raised here. Uh, so I left Canada moved over here and continued my textiles degree, but was still told I drew too much. And, um, then I started making products. I think I started, first I was screen printing a lot because of my textiles degree.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:00

Were you screen printing onto fabric?

Angela Chick: 00:04:02

Yeah, so I was screen printing, um, sort of t-shirts and baby clothes and tote bags. And I did the odd poster and stuff for bands at the time. Um, then that was going quite well. And I, at the time I was living in Brighton and my screen printing studio was closing down. So I thought, okay, how am I gonna get my designs onto things without a screen printing studio? You know, I lived in a tiny flat, there was no chance I was setting up my own studio at the time. Um, and then I started thinking about putting it on paper, and I think I started with sort of a handful of greeting card designs. So maybe five, six, and it kind of just went from there really.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:53

Amazing. Thank you. And was it so right at the start, when you were selling your tote bags and clothing and all the screen print items, so these are your illustrations screen printed onto products. So at that point, was it like how, what might you, how do you sort of set the set up as a business? And were you thinking, okay, this is my business, or where are you selling products, but while sort of pursuing other things?

Angela Chick: 00:05:15

Um, coming out of university, I went straight into a job as an artist in residence, working with young children. It was a pretty full on job. Um, I, I was working full time on that, but then outside of that was when I was having the time to make my products. I think it was always in the back of my mind that I wanted, well, since I was eight, apparently, um, that I wanted to be my own boss and I never really questioned at the time that that's what would end up happening that one day I would sell my products full time. Um, it got to the point, which was amazing, uh, in 2012 at my old job where I had to put my notice in because it was getting to a point where I couldn't, I couldn't keep up. So I was sort of running myself, ragged, trying to work full time and then spending evenings and weekends working on the stuff I wanted to sell for my own business. And it was a bit of a make or break situation. A big, uh, commission came in at the time, which I decided, you know, that was, that was time because if I was trying to work full time and do this, it was a big bespoke wedding collection, um, of loads of stationary and sort of, um, baby onesies to be worn at weddings, like lots of really cute stuff. Um, and it was massive. It was a huge deal at the time. And I thought, this is it. I can actually, I can quit my job now and go into it. So that was almost 10 years ago now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:52

Oh, wow. And so was that commission, so was that from a company who were asking you to do these designs on their behalf? Is that how that works?

Angela Chick: 00:06:59

Yeah, so it was, um, a, a sort of, quite a, a fancy wedding boutique, um, that approached me and it was a, well, it was a baptism of fire into the self-employment world or the freelance artist world because, uh, I did all the work and they never paid me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:23

Oh, no.

Angela Chick: 00:07:24

Yeah. So it was, um, it was definitely a, a fiery first few months of, uh, having quit my job. And then this big commission fell through. Um, yeah, sort of left me questioning for a bit what I had done.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:43

Yeah. I'm not surprised. And what happened? I mean, what was the outcome? Were you able to take them to small claims court or did you just dodge, pass it down off as its experience? What did you do at?

Angela Chick: 00:07:52

I kind of ended up having to put it down to experience at the time. I had no idea, um, where I stood. The person who ran the boutique just disappeared. And, you know, I mean, I felt pretty bad for myself obviously, but I felt really bad for the brides who had been left with no dresses, like days before their weddings. So, um, I wasn't the only one affected, sorry, I'm just getting over a cold so I'm a bit croaky.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:23

Don't worry at all. That's awful. Wow. Okay. And what. What a horrible experience for you to have, like literally in your first few months of running your business full time?

Angela Chick: 00:08:35

Mm-hmm it was a, it was a bit scary.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:38

I'm not surprising. And so what happened from there?

Angela Chick: 00:08:42

Um, after that, I realized that I had to make some better contracts first of all. Um, I stopped taking on new clients without any payment up front. Um, and I, I worked really, really hard to do whatever I could to just keep going, because at that point, I think I was a bit, it was a mix of being really stubborn and also, um, I guess, determined. I think that I find stubbornness and determination to be quite similar for myself a lot of the time, especially when it comes to my business. Um, and it's, what's kept me going because. I was too proud to say I failed at this. I didn't want to have to go back to employment after being finally reaching a point where I thought, oh my goodness, I can actually do my job full time. Uh, so it was, um, it was a very tricky first few months, but I ended up making it through with lots of hard work.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:54

And at that point, were you mostly taking commissions as opposed to selling products?

Angela Chick: 00:09:59

My product based business was getting off the ground. I was working on a lot of commissions at the time, um, anywhere from drawing cats and dogs for veterinary practices to band posters. Um, and t-shirts, so it was, it was a bit of a mixed bag. Uh, I started selling on Not On The High Street. So that had started to take off. It was nowhere near providing me with a salary at the time, but it was growing and I could see that month on month, it was growing and I kept having this, this sort of hope that it would continue in that way. Luckily 10 years later, it still has continued in that way. So it's now got to a point where it's, um, apart from some things going on, it's been mostly smooth sailing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:57

Good. And was Not On The High Street, the first place you sold your products, or what did your website pre-date that?

Angela Chick: 00:11:04

I had at one point I had an old big cartel website and I think I had five products on it at the time. I dunno what it's like now, but at the time you could have five products for free. Anything over that you had to pay for. So I had like a couple of tote bags, um, and some baby clothes, uh, then I think because of Not On The High Street, my products got into Vogue magazine.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:32

Wow.

Angela Chick: 00:11:32

Which was really exciting. I was doing these cute little, it was inspired by my old job as an artist in residence with the kids. And I had done these little t-shirts that came with colored pens for fabric, and the kids could color in their own t-shirts and, you know, then wash them and do it again and wash them and do it again. And so those, uh, those got picked up by Vogue and they were, they were really popular for a while. So that was definitely a big boost. Um, but that was sort of a mix of Not On The High Street and my own website. I was trying to run them, to say that my own website at the time was anywhere close to my, Not On The High Street sales, definitely, not even close.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:17

I think it must be expected though. Really. Um, I think most people who sell on another marketplace as well as their website, often they find that the marketplace sales was at least initially are more or simply because it's easier to find. Um, but actually getting onto Not On The High Street is really impressive as well. I don't know what it was. So how many years ago was it that you, was that 10 years ago when you started selling there?

Angela Chick: 00:12:40

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:41

I don't know what it was like then, but I know now certainly there is a bit of a process to go through. Um, was it the same then?

Angela Chick: 00:12:48

There was definitely process to go through. Um, I'm not quite sure what the process is now. I know what the, the most recent I heard, they sort of run almost like a pitch event.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:58

Yeah.

Angela Chick: 00:12:59

Yeah. So, um, I didn't have to do that, luckily at the time. Um, I did have to apply and go through, it was quite, quite a deep process to, uh, become part of it. And I'll never forget how proud I was when I found out that I had been accepted, because it, it just blew my mind. You know, I thought, oh my goodness, this is it. This is it. I've done it. And uh, yeah, so I I'd say as much as I, um, was trying to sell on my own website at the time, Not On The High Street at that point was, was my main breadwinner I'd say.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:42

Yeah, I think that does make sense though, because I mean, it still is now, but I, I think as well, thinking back 10 years, it was, it was a really popular place to shop wasn't it.

Angela Chick: 00:13:51

Absolutely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:52

And the only reason I say 10 years goes, I think now a lot of people maybe think of Etsy as well was Not On The High Street, but this, I think this probably predates it probably. If not, it was, I don't remember Etsy being big 10 years ago, but I certainly remember if I wanted a gift I would be going to Not On The High Street because that was where you'd get all the unique things that, yeah, funnily enough you wouldn't get on the high street

Angela Chick: 00:14:13

Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I think Etsy's been around quite a while over in the United States, but it took them a while to get as popular over here. Whereas now I think people would definitely think of Etsy when they think of, you know, finding unique gifts. They know that that's sort of the wealth as it is the handmade marketplace. So it's definitely a lot more popular over here now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:41

Yeah. And does selling on Not On The High Street prevent you from selling on other marketplaces? Because like I, and again, I know that used to be the case, but I'm not sure now.

Angela Chick: 00:14:51

Um, it, it really depends, so I, I can sell on my own website and I can sell on Etsy. Um, obviously if I have products on both of those sites, they're gonna be competing against each other. Um, and you know, I couldn't have designs that I had on Not On The High Street, in high street stores.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:16

Yeah. That makes sense.

Angela Chick: 00:15:18

Yeah. Um, now I don't know if that's changed. Um, I have had things in high street stores, but not things that were available for sale and Not In The High Street. So I would try to honor that as best I could. sometimes it happens where, um, a company that I supply will then sell things to another company, or it might end up that they sort of find their way onto the high street, but I do usually have some notice of that happening.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:57

Yeah. That makes sense. And we will talk a little bit more about wholesaling, um, a little bit later if that's okay.

Angela Chick: 00:16:03

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:03

Um, one thing I'd love to talk was products, talk about, let's talk about your products a bit, if that's okay, as well as the way you sell them. Um, where do you get your inspiration? Because as I said before, your products, they're bright, they're colorful, they're happy. You've definitely got your own style. Um, I feel like after spending lots of time looking at your Instagram and your website I could probably pick something out as being yours. Now, I think um, where, where do you get the inspiration for them?

Angela Chick: 00:16:28

Um, it all, it, most of it comes from my own experience. Um, I've struggled with poor mental health over the years. And when I've been at my lowest, there's been some things that people have said to me that have really, you know, hit home, made a difference. Um, there there's ways that especially, well, everyone found during the pandemic, obviously they wanted to keep in touch with people who are far away. You know, I think as we get older, our friendship group goes from that, which is, you know, we're all in the same sort of place. And then we get older and we spread out and I just wanted to create things to help people tell other people how they were feeling or that they were thinking about them. Um, hopefully to help brighten up their days. Or products that if someone is having issues with, um, how they've been feeling. Low mood and anxiety and things, things that tools I've learned from therapy that have helped me over the years. And so I'm hoping they can help other people as well. Thank you for that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:46

And, and did you, did your products, did you see an increase in product sales during the pandemic when we were in lockdown? Because I can see that your products would've just been perfect for that.

Angela Chick: 00:17:55

Absolutely. Uh, I was really nervous as many small business owners uh, would've been when, when we learned what was going on. Um, but because there were so many people that were stuck at home and couldn't go to the shops and wanted to reach out to those people that they were missing or those people who were really struggling and feeling isolated. Um, it was, it was my busiest year ever. Um, which, which is great. Obviously it's hard to follow that because it's, it's now a very different world since things are open and inflation is what it is. Um, but it was, it was an amazing year for me. And the best part of it for me was, um, receiving messages from customers who had bought something to give to a friend who were having a hard time. And they were saying, this is exactly what they needed. And thank you so much. It's made a big difference. And, you know, people couldn't necessarily find anything like that that was out there. So it made me feel really good that I was able to help them. It feels like a big responsibility to be helping people stay in touch with people they love and, um, make them feel good. But, uh, I like to think that I'm helping a little bit with that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:21

Oh, you definitely are. And that's really lovely. And also, I guess, practically then were you in a situation where your suppliers were still in production? Were they, or did they have to shut down at all?

Angela Chick: 00:19:34

I was, I was lucky all my product. All my suppliers stayed in production throughout. There were extended lead times. Um, as staff were spread out physically. Yeah. Um, but it, it managed, it ended up working out okay. Because I think everyone was a lot more understanding that there were so many things that were out of people's control. So all, so there were a few times I had to extend lead times or put something out of stock for a while. Uh, but it ended up being okay for the most part. I wasn't too affected.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:13

Oh, that's good. And I think you're right there at that time. Like that was the case for. I wanna say 99% of businesses, but probably all where everyone was affected in some way, whether it's supply or logistics or whatever it was um, because everything was just so stretched, wasn't it?

Angela Chick: 00:20:31

Absolutely. It was, uh, it was a wild time.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:33

It was. Um, and I just out of curiosity. So when you, so you mentioned, first of all, you were using somewhere to screen print your products and then obviously you moved to stationery. Um, how did you go about finding people to produce your products? Because also you have your pins as well, so it's not like they were being made in one place. So what was that process like?

Angela Chick: 00:20:56

It takes a lot of research, um, for small business owners that make products. I think there's, there's always going to be people that say, oh, well, where, where do you get this made? Where do you get that made? And it's taken me like years and years of researching to find suppliers that work for me that can do with my designs, what I need them to do. And it, it's not gonna be the same for everyone. It's also cost me quite a bit of money to do all that learning. You know, when you have to place a minimum order of say 200, 500 products with a new supplier without seeing a sample, it gets pretty scary. Um, but yeah, just lots of trial and error. And then once I found the ones that worked I've, I've stuck with them as best I can.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:58

Yeah, that all makes sense. Thank you for that. I think you're right. It does take a while to find the right people to work with. Because I guess it's not only, well, it is obviously it's a lot to do with the quantity of the products as a massive part. Then it's also the relationship as well. And can you work together? And I think that's something that people sometimes don't think about in the outset, but hopefully this is gonna be like a really long term relationship.

Angela Chick: 00:22:20

Yeah, absolutely. I think the more that you work with a supplier, the more they understand your needs, um, the more that you understand how each of you works, you know, it works both ways. I think, um, I find it really helpful. The, the longer I've worked with certain suppliers, you just know what to expect and you know, you're not gonna be disappointed when the product arrives, you know, you're most importantly, you know, your customer's not gonna be disappointed.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:51

Yeah. That's also a huge thing. Um, and let's just change subjects for a while if that's okay.Angela,. Let's talk a little bit about wholesaling. So I'm really keen to speak to you about that. Um, can you share with us sort of how and why you got started wholesaling your products?

Angela Chick: 00:23:07

Absolutely. So, um, when it got to a point and I was selling on Not On The High Street, Etsy, my own website, as well as licensing to a few companies and.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:18

Can I just ask, sorry, Angela. Sorry to interupt you there, but what does licensing mean? I'm sorry if I'm asking silly questions, but.

Angela Chick: 00:23:24

No, that's absolutely fine. Um, I don't want to take for granted. I kind of just take for granted that people know the language of the industry, but not everybody does. So, uh, with licensing, um, a company will come to me and they will say, okay, we want this design, this design, this design. We'll then, um, work to a contract that says they are allowed to use this design in this way and this way and this way. And that is it. And this is the cost to use that design only in the way specified for this length of time. So they're not buying the copyright. They're not allowed to say, um, uh, so a couple companies I work with are Moon Pig and Thoughtful and Scribbler and I'll have different designs with them because obviously they're all competing against each other. But if I have designs on Moon Pig, that nobody can get anywhere else and I have designs on Scribblers that nobody can get anywhere else and designs on Thoughtful, um, that obviously works better for them. And it works better for me. So I will agree with them that they can use that card design and sell it as a card. So they can't then take that design and put it onto a t-shirt or put it onto a mug or anything else. They can only use it in the way specified. And then I provide the artwork. I, I sit back and then I, I get a paycheck every, well, it depends on if it's quarterly or monthly, uh, for all the, all of the sales through those licensed artworks.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:10

Right. Wow. And thank you for explaining that. Becauuse I wasn't sure exactly what that meant. Okay. That sounds like a really smart way of doing things. Because I guess, um, other than obviously coming up with the designs and making sure the legal things are in place, you can, after that, sit back because it's down to them to actually make the sales, print the cards and all of that side.

Angela Chick: 00:25:29

The thing I like best about, well, there's a, there's a lot of things that are very attractive. Um, when it comes to licensing, first of all, I don't have to hold the stock. So, um, I have a packing room that's full of products for me to send to my customers that order on my website or through Etsy or Not On The High Street. Um, but I don't have to hold all the stock of those other designs. It also means that I get to focus on doing the thing that I thought I would be doing more of as someone running a creative business, which was, I actually get to do the illustration and the design work. Uh it's, it's pretty surprising how little of that I spend my time doing as someone who calls themselves an illustrator, I don't just get around. I, I don't just get to sit around and draw pictures all day. Most of what I do is admin. So when it comes to licensing for me, it's just, it's so nice to work in that way because I get to do the fun bit and then hand over the rest of it to someone else.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:36

That makes total sense. And I actually didn't think about that. The fact that, yes, I guess once you've done a new illustration, I guess this is after that's probably the fun bit, but probably presumably like the shortest amount of time, because then you've got to do all the things in terms of getting it put onto products and uploaded to websites and yeah into production and yeah, I'm guessing the illustration is probably a tiny part of what you do in reality.

Angela Chick: 00:27:02

Yeah. It's, it's pretty shocking how little of it I get to do. I thought that, you know, I think when I first went into it, I sort of romanticized the idea of like, oh, I'm just gonna get to sit at home in my pyjamas, drawing all day and i, I know that loads of people can work that way. I am not one of those people I have to get up. I get up very early and I have to get dressed and get, get my head in the game. Um, mostly because I'm looking at a lot of spreadsheets and emails throughout a day instead of drawing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:39

So, oh, well, thank you for explaining all of that. If, if you don't mind, let's get, because I re I did really interrupt you, but I'm glad I did because that's so interesting. Um, so yeah, forgive the interruption. Um, so you were just talking about wholesaling. I think you were saying that you started licensing your products first.

Angela Chick: 00:27:55

Yeah. So, um, I, I then I guess the sort of natural progression was how can I, how can I get these in front of even more people? Um, so I started contacting some independent boutique stores because obviously if I'm spending as much time as I was packing up individual orders to individual customers, If I could spend a similar amount of time packing up bulk orders. Now, obviously with wholesale, you make less money on it, but you're selling a big chunk at one time. So I wanted to get myself out there and I started, I, I started with just a few, very, very small independent stores and it was great. It was, it was so exciting. You know, I, I worked through all the rules of wholesale that I don't know how most people learn, but it's, it's something that they just don't teach you obviously. Um, and it's kind of different for different industries as well and different products as to, you know, what kind of discount people will expect, what kind of minimum order you should charge. And it's a lot to get your head around. So I thought that, um, I would sign up to do a trade show so I could get myself in front of as many buyers as possible. It was, um, I did Top Drawer. I can't remember which year it was. That was my first one. I was an absolute mess. It, it totally broke me. Um, mentally and physically and financially. I just didn't understand at the time quite what went into a trade show and, you know, three, four days, however long the show is, standing on your feet, putting your best face forward. Um, talking to people all day, uh, it gets exhausting and I'm quite introverted most of the time. Well around people that I don't know, especially once you get to know me, it's a different story, but, um, it was just so draining and I had sort of thought, oh yeah, I'm gonna walk out of here. And I'm gonna have these big contracts with these big stores, you know? And I can remember how it would feel on the floor of the trade show when like the big stores would walk past. You'd be like, oh my God, that's the buyer from, you know, Paperchase, John Lewis, any of the big ones that you'd see, you'd just get, it would be so exciting. And you could sort of see everyone with their pick me face on. And, and, um, I, I walked out of that first show. I think, I think I got one order for like a couple hundred pounds for a show that cost me like a few grand. So it's like, oh, well, there we go.. That wasn't quite what I expected, but, uh, it, it got me, firstmI learned a lot from it. First of all, um, nothing quite like standing at a trade show, talking to a potential customer and then telling you that your prices don't actually work for the industry. It's like, oh, okay. That would've been good to know before I signed up to a trade show,.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:31:33

I was going to ask actually, what were some of the things that you learned? So I'm, because I'm assuming you've done trade shows since, and I guess for everyone listening, who's perhaps thinking of doing trade shows. Now that they're happening again this year, um, what kind of things did you learn and what things people need to think about?

Angela Chick: 00:31:51

Um, I'd say most importantly is to make sure you choose a show that is definitely going to have your target audience. I didn't have a great time. There's there's been shows they've been really hit or miss. I've done some really incredible shows. Uh, I've done some absolutely terrible ones where, you know, you see you look up and down the aisles of the show and there's just no one, there's no buyers walking around yet on the social media shows are posting 'oh, it's a really busy day here' and in insert trade show here, and you're looking around thinking, am I somewhere, am I in the wrong place? But, um, it's, it's a great opportunity to go and meet other people in your industry. You know, for me, I work from home on my own five days a week. I don't have any, I don't have any colleagues to talk to at the water cooler or while the kettle boils and, um, it can get kind of lonely. So being in a position where all of a sudden, all of these names that you recognize from maybe Instagram or wherever you may TikTok these days. I guess, um, all of a sudden you get to meet these people and put faces to names and, and it's, it's really quite nice. Um, you get to learn that, although, you know, we're all in competition, everybody's pretty friendly. And, uh, you know, we had great times. We go out for meals after the shows and talk about how it had been and, and everyone would catch up. So you kind of get a nice social element as well. Um, I also, I think I would, I would, I tried to do things as cheaply as I possibly could. Every time I did a show and I think I'd stick with that, do it as cheap as possible, but make sure it looks good. Because cheap can look really, really bad and it can fail quite miserably. Um, but yeah. Also take breaks and drink lots of water.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:34:22

Oh. Or really good advice. So in terms of how it works, do you get like a booth or something that you need to fill or does it vary?

Angela Chick: 00:34:30

Yeah. Most of them you book a space sort of by square meterage. So, um, you know, larger companies will have larger booths obviously. Um, but you can have, so at Progressive Greetings Live, which is the greetings card industry specific show, um, I think you could have as small as a two by one meter booth and some trade shows have um, sections for companies who are just starting out. So you'll sort of be in a middle area, uh, with a small sort of plinth almost. Um, and those are quite good for if you are just getting started and you want to, you want to dip your toe in without costing a fortune. I think a lot of people, if it's your first show and you're new to the industry, definitely, definitely go for the new area, the newbie area, because lots of buyers will go straight there because they want to see what's new and what's coming up, you know? So it's a great place to be if you want to get seen by as many people as possible.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:45

That makes sense. And I also guess that if you're starting out and you know, your portfolio is maybe still fairly small, it makes sense to have a smaller space as well because what you don't want is to have a bigger area and um, it to look quite sparse, because that probably doesn't give a great impression.

Angela Chick: 00:36:00

Yeah, definitely. I think as well, I've also gone the other way and I've probably overfilled, you know, at times when I should have booked maybe like a four by one space, I went for a two by one or a three by one and I have hundreds of card designs and um, I think, yeah, I've probably gone the other way as well. So you want to find that nice balance where people can get a good idea of what you're showcasing, but also not be overwhelmed.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:35

Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that you obviously need to be on top of your figures and things as well before turning.

Angela Chick: 00:36:42

Yeah, it's, uh, I cannot stress how embarrassing it is to be asked about figures that you had tried to remember. I guess it's a bit like when they go on Dragons' Den and they just don't know their numbers. Um, you, you know, you might get flustered, but I ended up having just like cheat sheets. I mean, now it's different. I, I know my product line. I've, but you know, going into a show where I had, I can't remember how many new products I was launching and I, I just couldn't, I'm not much of a numbers person and I, I just couldn't get the numbers in my head. So I was, I was really flustered, really struggling, stumbling over my words, just feeling really overwhelmed as this buyer, just looking at me like uh, you should surely know this. I'm just thinking, oh no, but there's like 20 new things that I just don't know yet.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:46

And I take it. It doesn't matter if you have it written down, surely they don't expect you to know everything off the top of your head.

Angela Chick: 00:37:52

No, no. And when I had help on a stand, I had it written down for them anyway, and it's, it's, it's pretty understandable. You know, you can just hand them a price list as well, which is obviously the easiest way to do it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:05

Oh, that's, that's re that's a really good tip actualy. So you can have some price lists printed up ready.

Angela Chick: 00:38:10

Yeah. A lot of buyers will ask for catalogues and price lists.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:16

That's good to know. So after that first experience at Top Drawer, what happened then?

Angela Chick: 00:38:22

Well, um, I tried desperately to follow up some of the contacts I had made at the show. Um, I then realized that maybe that wasn't the show for me at the time. I think it would be different if I went back now for many, many reasons. Um, but I, then I then discovered PG live, uh, and it was, it was smaller. It was, it seemed much more friendly. Like you, you spoke to the people who organized it, you saw them around while you were setting up. It was a much different atmosphere, plus like they had, you know, all the buyers loved it because they provided lunch and there was a party on the first night where they gave you free drinks. And, um, it just seemed a much more relaxed atmosphere. Um, so I did, I did a few years worth of that and, uh, and I was growing my wholesale customers more and more each time. And then you'd also have people who had seen you at the show who maybe weren't ready to buy then, but then they come to you sort of, you know, six months later and say, oh, I don't, I don't know if you remember, I saw you at PG Live back in June. And, um, it, it got to a point where it was becoming quite a good chunk of my business, which I had, I had decided I wanted to do that. I wanted to focus on growing wholesale and, um, licensing because of the fact that it would allow me to have basically more income for less work.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:40:12

And I guess more time to be creative as well and do what you actually enjoy.

Angela Chick: 00:40:16

Yeah, absolutely. The less time I was spending stuffing envelopes. And I mean, at the time I had my, I used to do all my card folding my cards used to come to me flat and then I'd have to fold them and pack them. And then that got too much for me. And I realized, well, I'm, I'm not adding any value to this. This is busy work, fine. You can put on Netflix and watch something while you're doing it. But, um, it was taking me away from the things I really wanted to be doing. And I think that as I grow, I want to do less of those things and more of the things that I know I enjoy and that I do add value to. I want to be spending my time designing and coming up with new products, not, not necessarily doing all of the product prep and the, the more boring stuff.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:11

Yeah. And presumably you can get your cards come to you folded, for example, that's something your printer can do.

Angela Chick: 00:41:18

Yeah. I, um, I swapped suppliers. Uh, once I started doing trade shows, I changed suppliers to a more professional grading card supplier. I mean, the printer I was using in the early days, they were great, but I was using them because they were a local printer to me and they could do greeting cards, but it wasn't like, that was what they, that wasn't their focus. So it wasn't necessarily their strong point.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:46

Yeah, I understand. Okay. So while we're talking about wholesaling, do you mind talking a bit about the experience you've had with Paperchase and you can share as little or as much as you want about this. I just think it'd be good to, um, get well for many reasons, as people will say, just to get the story out there, first of all.

Angela Chick: 00:42:04

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I, I know I mentioned when I talked about trade shows that when the big buyers would come by, there would almost just be like a hush over everyone at the show. You know, we'd go from like talking and telling each other jokes to, oh, here come the here, come the big guys. We need to really behave and smile nicely. And, um, and the greeting card association actually did some pitching events as well, where you could, it was like a speed dating with buyers kind of situation where, you know, you, you paid, you went to this event that you could speak to other buyers. Um, I think you got, yeah, you got the chance to speak to three and they would choose you. So you'd sort of sit there. It was like a mini trade show. You'd sit there with your cards out. And each time, you know, you, you go into these, you sort of set your goals. So you've got, you know, your, A, B and C goals. And it was always like, get, get Paperchase, get Paperchase, like obviously that's, that's the greeting card store in the UK, you know, you wanna, you wanna be in there. Um, I was, I was supplying another big company at the time. Scribbler, and I thought, okay, they've been great to work with. I really wanna work with Paperchase as well, and nothing ever came of any of the shows or the pitching events. But then in early 2020, I had an email from one of their buyers saying that they loved my products and they really wanted to get me into their stores. Now this was pre lock down and. you know, it was very early 2020. So, um, we started working together. They said they wanted to do a focus on my thinking of you cards. So they chose a selection of my designs that were nice and bright and colorful and all about friendship and keeping in touch and making people feel good, spreading joy as their tagline says. Um, so throughout 2020, I, I just felt, first of all, I felt, oh my goodness, this is it. I'm now in Paperchase. This is like my dreams, since I was in university, you know, when I'd go shopping in Paperchase and look at all of this cool stationery and be like, oh wow. Maybe one day. But I was, I was in there and I was doing really well. They were placing loads of orders with me. Um, and the first few invoices they paid now, obviously with what was going on in 2020 loads of stores were having to close and, um, struggling with that quite a bit. Paperchase had quite a good online platform. Um, so, you know, they were still able to sell, but towards the end of 2020, they stopped paying my invoices. And I chased these up. Now the first time that some of them weren't paid, I, I chased them up and I chased them up. Didn't hear anything. Chased up the buyer I was working with. Uh, they went on to chase the accountant and then magically, I was paid. The next ones I chased up. It didn't go so well. Um, at this point I was owed 22,000 and a few hundred. So quite a bit of money, big chunk of money. Um, and no matter how much I chased or however many payment reminders I sent, they just weren't, they weren't acknowledging me. They weren't, they weren't giving me anything back. It was like I had being ghosted by the entire accounting department and buying team. So, um, December, 2020, and I take a few weeks off over Christmas to sort of recover from that crazy year. And my first day back in the office. And I, I read a news article that Paperchase are going into administration. Um, I didn't really know what that meant for me at the time. So I started researching and I soon realized what kind of an issue that was going to be for me, but I hadn't completely lost hope. So I, uh, I had a call scheduled with, um, a couple people from Paperchase, and I was offered of the more than 22,000 pounds, I was offered, I was, I was owed, sorry. I was offered, um, 15%, which was conditional on me going forward, working with them. So basically if I would agree to put myself at risk of the same thing happening over again. I couldn't afford that. I was already really struggling because I had had to pay my suppliers ages ago. You know, they had, um, very generous payment terms. So I was already sort of two months out of pocket from the orders they had placed. When their invoices would come due, the invoices which they weren't paying. So I decided I couldn't, I absolutely could not go forward and work with them again. Um, I, I just couldn't trust that this wouldn't happen again. And they told me that the 15% they were offering me, which was conditional on me, giving them more credit, um, extended payment terms, uh, was a goodwill gesture, which that felt like a slap in the face. Yeah. Um, I, I thought goodwill, do you, do you know what goodwill means? Like I'm a small business that you owe 22,000 pounds to. Um, and, uh, so we started the administration process. And so what that meant is, um, basically they got bought by another company at the end of January 2021. Uh, but they were still able to continue trading throughout this, under the name of Paperchase. So on paper, their business name changed. So legally their debts go down with the old company and the new company doesn't owe those small businesses, any money, which is it's shocking. Because there, there is no law to support small businesses in this situation. And I knew that throughout 2021, they were still selling my products online, products they had not paid for. Um um, they were still selling them in store because I would have friends message me pictures and be like, oh look, I found you in Paperchase, which it was really hard because you know, thank you obviously for supporting me and buying my cards. But uh, in future, do you think you could probably do it from somewhere? That's going give me some. So I, I did a social media post about it, and I didn't mention how much money I was owed. I just mentioned that they owed me money and I was really struggling. And, um, loads of people didn't even know that they had gone into administration because they can, you know, nothing changed to their customers. Um, so fast forward a year, and we still haven't seen any of that money. Um, where, where would are called unsecured creditors? I say we, because it's myself and quite a few other small businesses. So there's, um, Jelly Armchair, Hole In My Pocket, um, Dandelion Stationery, Sarah Ray. There's absolutely loads of us. And I decided that, I didn't know. Well, I knew that other small businesses would've been owed money. I didn't know how much, um, when, when I decided to post about it, they started coming forward and my post went as viral as any post has gone for me on Instagram. And suddenly I had all of these people reaching out saying that they were owed money as well. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is, this is absolutely horrible. This is between just a handful being owed that many people, that, that much money from that few people. And that's not even all of us. Um, we've been really lucky since, well, I say really lucky. It's not really the kind of reason you want to be, um, getting press because you're owed so much money. But, um, the story was picked up by Forbes magazine, The Guardian, The Observer, we did a, um, radio show with BBC radio Scotland. And so it's getting a lot of press. There's a lot of people talking about boycotting Paperchase. Um, and I mean, I know that we probably won't see that money. People suggested to us to go get our stock back. Well, we can't, this was back. I haven't sent them anything since 2020. Like they don't have any of my stock. They've sold it. They've got the money that they made from my stock. Um, but you know, as unsecured creditors, we sit at the very bottom of, uh, of a big pile of people who are all owed money. And we might see 2%, but who knows when, because it keeps getting delayed and the administration process takes such a long time. But now, um, It looks like they're the new buyers are selling the company. So it's been doing that well that they're able to sell it on again, but I'm hoping that by sharing the story, I can help other small businesses who might get into that same situation to sort of know what the risks are. I just didn't really, I didn't really know. I didn't see it coming. Some of the other suppliers saw it coming because they had had, um, they had had emails from them saying that they had to pause payments. Um, you know, they sort of knew that something was going wrong basically, but unfortunately we're just all out of pocket and might not get to see any of it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:53:34

It's horrible. And thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry. That's happened to you and to everyone else involved. It's just shocking that and have, um, out of interest because I mean, I know you mentioned there's been a lot of publicity, um, that I think I actually became aware of you, Angela, because I saw your post on this and all the businesses had commented on it. And then I saw the Holly Tucker did a post as well, referencing it. Um, so it's obviously had lots of publicity, have Paperchase remained quiet throughout the whole thing? Have they commented or done anything at all?

Angela Chick: 00:54:09

Uh, every, every article that has been written, they've all tried to get them to comment and they've declined. Um, and. Yeah. You see so many on their Instagram, they'll post up, they'll do some sort of cheerful post about spreading kindness or whatever. And you just see so many people commenting. Yeah. Pay your suppliers, pay your suppliers. Why don't you pay your suppliers? Why don't you spread some kindness to the suppliers you owe so much money. Um, and it just, it gets completely ignored. You know, you can see them replying to, I know that the, I know whoever's in charge of their social media is not the CEO. So, you know, I'm not holding them responsible here, but, um, yeah, they just don't seem to be able to get any sort of comment. So yeah. Clearly their strategy is let's ignore it and hope it goes away. Yeah, absolutely. They'll quiet down. They'll quiet down.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:55:15

Oh, well I'm so sorry again, that this has happened to you and I really hope it does get resolved. I mean, yeah, I don't know if it will, but I hope it does. It's just, yeah, it's awful. Just seeing small businesses getting treated like this. I mean anyone or any size business getting treated badly, but particularly small businesses. Um, and particularly when they're still trading and presumably have enough money to pay everyone 10 times over. Well, I don't know that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm making a big assumption there, but, um, I would say it probably wouldn't be an issue to just clear all your debts with it, but.

Angela Chick: 00:55:52

Yeah, I mean, that's what I would think. I think that if a company is successful enough to be opening new stores and refurbishing loads of stores, um, yeah, they're probably, I mean, the thing is it's pocket change to them. Um, they, they wouldn't notice it. And I guess in a way that's maybe why they don't see why it's such a big deal. I don't know, but it just doesn't sit right with me that, um, going into administration seems to be a bit of a, it can just hit a reset button and I know that companies have used it in that sort of way in the past. And this seems to be what's happening as they just say, well, you know, we're done, we don't want to pay these debts. So we'll just, uh, oh no, go into administration. And then, oh, magically, we're fine. And look at this, look at this new company, that's the same company. It's just, it's really dodgy.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:56:57

It is. And has it changed how you approach working with other companies now at all?

Angela Chick: 00:57:04

Yeah, I think I'm a lot more apprehensive. Um, I mean, if you look deep enough into the terms and conditions of working with a lot of larger companies, it's really hard for a small business to do and to make money, which sounds ridiculous. But, um, because they, they drive you down on price so much, and sometimes they want to do sale or return. So you may end up sending them thousands of cards that if they don't sell, they send them back to you. Well, what are you going to do? I mean, obviously you'll sell them as well, but it's going to take a lot of time. You've got to store them somewhere. It's um, it's, it's just, I think it's made me a bit more cynical, less starstruck, more cynical, I think. And it just seems crazy to me that the terms and everything working, you know, for a large company are worse. And for a small boutique shop, let's say who presumably have maybe not more overheads, but you know, they're also a small business. Um, yeah, it's, it's like to be really strange that small businesses can be so much more generous with their terms and the margins you know, everything, um, when they're also a small business, whereas the large businesses, you kind of think they could afford to do that, offer them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:58:33

Yeah. Maybe that's why they're massive companies.

Angela Chick: 00:58:36

Yeah. I mean, I think I've, I've never had any issues with my small business customers paying. I think, because they're just, they're closer to it. They, they may be a one or two person show as well. And, and they understand, you know, I've through sharing my story about this. I've heard stories of sh um, small stores that have closed down and the owners of those stores have paid personally out of their pocket to make sure that all their suppliers are paid and it might be taking longer, but, you know, month by month, they're working on those debts. So that those small businesses that supplied them, aren't out of pocket. And you just see the, you see the difference so much more it's I don't wanna say it's more human, but in a way, I think when it's one person working with one other person, you know, there's a stronger relationship, there's more accountability. And I think there's just a lot more kindness and warmth.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:59:46

Yeah, I know what you mean when you say that more human, because when you were talking, I was thinking, I think the difference probably is that you're dealing with a person, not a company. So even if that person is, has a business is a, is their business, they're still a person. Um, and I think that's, I think with larger companies, I guess even if you have a relationship with a buyer or somebody in that company, they're part of like a much bigger thing. Um, so maybe there's maybe that's the difference.

Angela Chick: 01:00:16

Yeah. I think you can definitely tell from my experience anyway, you can definitely tell, I mean, this, the bigger businesses that I really like working with, I like working with them because they have hung onto that. Um, you still feel as though you have a relationship with someone and you know who your point of contact is with something, if something goes wrong, but yeah, in, in other experiences it's been very different.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:00:46

Yeah, I guess relationships are just the key to all of this, aren't they? Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Because I know it must be really hard to talk about. And again, so sorry, this happened to so many people. Um, I wasn't goning to say let's end on a higher note. I don't know if it will be or not, but let's see if I was going to ask you, if you could please share your number one piece of advice for other product creators.

Angela Chick: 01:01:14

I think that my, my advice I would give to other product creators is to be selfish. Um, um, all of my products that have been my best sellers have been things that I've really wanted to make. So, you know, there's trend guides that come out. All the time. And if you want, you can follow what's in those. You can, you can do whatever works for you, but for me, anytime I've had something that I've gone 'Ooh, I don't know, is it going to work? I really, really, really want to make it'. I think, I think that makes it a more authentic product. Um, the more personal my products are to me, the better sellers they've been, the more people they've been able to help. So I think, um, be as authentic as possible and be selfish and make what you want to make, because if you're 100% behind it and you're really passionate about it, then I think other people are going to catch onto that. And they're gonna be able to tell that it comes from a place of authenticity and passion.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:02:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I also guess that if you're making a product that you really like other people, like you will really like it. Whereas I suppose if you're trying to do something to appeal to the mass market, let's say not that there's anything wrong with that, but what do they say if you're talking to everyone you're not talking to anyone? Is that the same? I may, yeah, I'm good at getting quotes wrong, but I think that's the saying, but I think it makes sense, makes sense that the people who resonate with you and your products really like, I really, um, when I looked in your website, I mentioned, I spent ages looking at them because I'm also a runner and you have like your little running pins and cards and stuff. So it all really resonated with me because that's what I like too. So.

Angela Chick: 01:03:10

Yeah, I think, um, and, and again, that's a very selfish product. I, I wanted to do that because I, I run a lot. Uh, it's a big passion of mine and um, I don't really like doing events much, so I thought, well, what would about the people who want to run and want some, something to mark their achievement, but maybe not a medal from an event. So that was, uh, that was what inspired those.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:03:37

Well, I think that's a great idea because yeah, I'm exactly the same. Yeah. Really resonated. Well, thank you so, so much again for everything that you've shared with us today. Um, yeah, just thank you.

Angela Chick: 01:03:51

Thank you so much for having me. It's been great and hopefully I haven't, uh, I haven't rambled too much.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:03:57

No, you haven't. It's been brilliant. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the full back catalogues and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.