Meet the Only Maker of Woollen Coffins – with Eleanor Hunt, The Woollen Cwtch Company

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea To Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hi.

So today I'm speaking to Eleanor Hunt, who is the founder of the Woollen Cwtch Company. Eleanor helps farmers unlock the value in their wool by creating wool coffins, shrouds, urns, and basketry work.

So we speak a lot about wool in this episode and also a lot about end of life because that's what Eleanor's products are for. I found this conversation really fascinating. You can tell I ask Eleanor a lot of questions because I think Eleanor's products.

I've never interviewed someone on the podcast who sells these kind of products. I've never met anyone who sells these kind of products.

And actually I've never met anyone who sells these exact products because at the moment, Eleanor is the only person who is selling woolen coffins and shrouds and urns and the other products that she sells. I found Eleanor's story really fascinating.

She explains how she realized there was wool available and decided to think about what she could do with it. She actually hand makes all of her products and she's going to speak about how she figured out how to do it.

And I guess one real big thing I picked up from speaking to Eleanor is how she just figured things out as she went and launched this business. And yeah, just kept, just kept going. And it's a really, really interesting story.

So I think you've probably heard enough from me for now and I would love now to introduce you to Eleanor. Hi, Eleanor, thank you so much for being here.

Hello, it's nice to meet you. You're very welcome.

It's so nice to meet you. And can you please start by giving an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell?

Yeah, absolutely. My name is Eleanor Hunt and I'm the founder of the Woollen Cwtch company. We make woolen coffins, shroud, shroud carriers, urns and basketry work.

And we do it to help farmers unlock the value in their wool.

Amazing. Thank you. I've got so many follow up questions. So first of all, am I is the Woollen Cwtch company. It's Kutch, the correct pronunciation.

Yeah, Cwtch. It's a Welsh word and it's not a direct English translation for it.

It means a very special type of warm, loving cuddle that you might give like a child or when you're snuggled up in front of the TV with your family and loved ones and it's like that tight, safe space. Space. And that's the, that's the idea of the coffins, really. They're designed to be these warm, loving hugs for our loved ones.

Oh, that's so nice. And thank you. I really like that word. What a nice words. So I'd like to know.

So let's talk about, first of all, when, when and why you established the Woollen Cwtch Company. And then we'll talk a little bit about the how. So how long have you been in business and why did you get started?

I've been in business just over three years now. It was the end of the pandemic and it was sort of a coming together of lots of things. I live in rural mid Wales. I was a felt maker.

I've always had a love for wool.

I come from a history, a background in upholstery and then I was out working on the farms as a lambing hand and would roll for the shearers whenever I could in the springtime. So started to learn a lot more about production of wool.

The amount of work and skills and knowledge that goes into it and then the value that the farmers are receiving in return.

And then we hit the pandemic and like everyone, I guess we were faced with a lot of funerals and for me I just kept seeing the same casket again and again and again. And I started to piece things together in my mind, thinking, well, how can we raise the value of wool?

How can we create more personalized funerals that are warmer perhaps and reflect the people that they are meant for?

And I just, yeah, I just started putting everything together and thinking about it from the eco friendly side to I was thinking, well, hang on a minute. Wool is the perfect material for the funeral world and coffin making because it's got the right inherent qualities to it.

So it's completely biodegradable, it's antimicrobial, it's not leaching noxious gases when it's burned, it nourishes the earth when it's buried.

And I just started thinking, like, could we use the world to create beautiful coffins so that then the families benefit from it and then give something back to the farmers and so that they could benefit from it too? And trying to like strike a balance between everything.

Well, that's really nice. And how do you. Did you have any experience in funerals? Coffins? It doesn't sound like it.

But just checking at that time, I want to know how you, how did you figure out how to make a coffin out of wool? As. So as basic a question as that is, because it's quite a.

I can't knit either. I can't crochet. These are things that are on my list for next year to learn. But I was a felt maker.

Like I say, I trained as an upholsterer and fell in love with wool through upholstery and started adding felt decoration to my upholstery work. And then that became a huge passion of mine and I taught myself how to needle felt and wet felt and started making accessories.

So the first coffins I made were small coffins. They were for infants and very early babies. They were tiny and they were hand felted.

And then as time went on, I was starting to be asked, can you do this? Can you do this? So I started looking at like, okay, what's the next step? How do I go bigger? How can I translate this into adult sized coffins?

And it took me a while, like lots and lots of prototypes, lots and lots of ideas. I had it in my mind's eye what I wanted to do, sort of this tapestry woven effect.

But trying to work out how I was going to frame it took me quite a while. And then I had the epiphany finally that I could use a woven willow structure and add the wool into it.

So I couldn't find wool rope when I was first looking. So I, because I, because I knew how to felt, I hand rolled the felt wool rope for the first coffins that I made to test the theory.

And then I found that it worked. So that was brilliant. That was great news. But then obviously I had to keep going because you need to be able to commercialize it.

And hand rolling felt rope is not commercially viable. There is five and a half kilos of wool rope in each of the adult coffins that I make.

So after, after a bit of toing and throwing, I taught myself to spin and now I create this. This is the super chunky yarn that I hand spin and then I spin it and then I felt it. And this is what I now use to weave my coffins. So yeah. And then.

Oh, and then about nine months after I'd worked all that out and was like well into developing the production, I met a lady called Kate Drury who is owner of Sustainable Rope, who makes British wool rope. And this is, it's like a twisted wool rope.

So this is her Welsh mountain wool rope and realized that I can use the rope in the same method to create a different style of coffin, still made from wool, but you get a different finish. I think you can see in this basket here.

Yes.

So there's like the hand spun and then you've got this sort here. So, yeah, so that's, that's how I got to where I was. It was just keeping going, growing and evolving.

Well, that's amazing and thank you for explaining all of that. Would you mind explaining what felting is? And I'm sorry if that's a really basic question, but I don't actually know.

I've heard of felting, but I don't think I understand fully what it is.

So wool, if we take wool fibers and if you were to look at like an individual wool fiber underneath a microscope, it has like little hooks all over it. They're called cuticles. And when you rub wool together and agitate it, the little hooks start to grab hold of each other.

You can add hot water and a bit of soap, but you're trying to create the friction and agitation. And then the more you agitate, the more the hooks bind together.

And it goes from being individual strands into forming, I guess like a fabric, a felt fabric. You can create 3D shapes with it. If you use.

There's another way you can felt three needle felting, which is using barbed needles instead does the same thing. It compacts all the fibers together, but then you can create like 3D forms with it. So I was using wet felting.

Amazing. Thank you. I was, I was just thinking then I was.

Because I've seen, I thought felting was, you know, sometimes you might see people make things like Christmas decorations, for example. I'm seeing loads of at the moment because they recorded this in November, made of felt. And I think maybe that's something slightly different.

So I was, Sorry, I was getting a little bit confused. I was thinking, oh, how onto how you make something really big. Okay, so that makes sense.

So, yeah, I can see that if you were using that process for the coffins, that's. That sounds like a lot of work. If that's how you were starting.

It's a lot of. It is a lot of work. It's a lot of drying as well. If you're trying structurally, there's like laws and obviously your own moral code.

A coffin needs to be structurally sound and stable. So to hand felt a large wool coffin, you would still need some structural support within it.

So, yeah, this is what I thought that like a woven one and then you've got the flexibility of choosing, like, the different colors and the different textures and the different styles of what within it.

Because, of course, you're making everyone to order that, correct?

No, I don't make everyone. So I'm. I'm currently building stock at the moment, so I sell them in standard adult sizes, and they can also be made in bespoke sizes as well.

Oh, amazing. I was about to ask, did you have to come up with.

Because I know obviously if you were to do knitting or crochet, you'd have a pattern that you'd work too. Did you have to develop something like that? Four coffins of different sizes?

Yeah, definitely. So you. I can't. I worked out the method of making them, and then to begin with, they were taking me too long. They were like 10 to 14 days.

And I was making, like, every single one bespoke sizes. And then I thought to commercialize it, I need to bring my production times down. So you start looking at how you can do that.

But you can hold standards sizes in stock, and like you say, you need a repetitive pattern for doing that. And the other side of it, too, is there is a.

Like, you can have your coffins accredited, which means they have been independently tested and within industry standards, and then they're licensed for cremation. So within that, you submit a single design for each accreditation process.

So that design is the design that I now have to make for every coffin that's going for cremation. So, yeah, once you. Once you've designed the product, then, like, you refine it, and then it goes off for the accreditation process.

So, yeah, it can be made to different sizes, but the instructions, if you like, and the depths and the weights and the sizes remain the same.

Amazing. Thank you. So it sounds like you had to do an awful lot of figuring things out. So how to make the coffins and all of this. But so how.

So how did that work alongside, actually, this becoming commercial? So when did you first start selling them?

So I launched the business straight away from the outset because I kind of thought I could. I already had a product ready to go, and I thought, there's no point sitting back and waiting. Build the company as you go. You can balance it out.

You'll be building your reputation, getting to know the industry, like, building your network. You may as well just get going with it. And I'm glad I did. I'm glad I did.

It was a bit of a juggling act, to be honest with you, but well worth the effort. And then. Sorry, I've forgotten the question?

Oh, yeah, I was just asking about when it became commercial because.

And you, I think you were explaining that you were almost figuring it out as you went along, which I think you're right, is a good approach to take because you could wait until you have everything figured out, but actually you lose quite a bit of time and momentum doing things that way, don't you?

Absolutely. So this spring I got my head down and really worked on refining the design.

And then I took my making time down from 10 days to two, and at that point I was ready to send for accreditation. And then, you know, you're commercially viable. Once the accreditation had been achieved, my making times are down, the processes are all in place.

So, yeah, so that was like the tipping point of realizing, yes, this is going to be commercially viable, moving forwards.

So when you came up with the idea, Eleanor, and you were sort of working out how to make the coffins, and then, as you say, you started selling them, how did that. How did you start. Were you selling directly to funeral homes or.

And I'm sorry if somebody's question, because obviously this isn't a topic everyone likes to talk about, but I'm genuinely interested whether this was something you went public with or whether you were approaching funeral homes at first. Like, how were you getting the words out there? Because I think I'm right in saying your coffins are really unique, aren't they?

I guess they are at the moment, yes. I'm hoping that give me another five years and they will be as like, common or sort of. What's the word? People will recognize them.

Yeah, they will recognize them in the same way that they would recognize a woven willow coffin. But yeah, at the moment, they're the only ones that are made this way. So, yes, so in that way, they're definitely unique.

I started, I reached out to other professionals in the industry, so independent coffin makers. There is a whole network of them in the UK and they are absolutely fabulous.

There's all different sorts of types of coffins that you can get in the uk. We're very lucky here. I spoke to funeral directors, I spoke to Green Burial Grounds, and then I just continued to network.

So I was on social media, started talking to people, making sure I was going to meetings, associations, and you just, like, you just keep going, keep going, showing up. And gradually your network starts to grow. So I sell directly to the public, I sell to funeral directors.

And then, like I say, there's the burial grounds as well. Who will recommend you as a supplier?

That makes a lot of sense because I guess.

I guess it was important, though, to do the groundwork, the networking, getting to know funeral directors, because I guess until people understand that you. That your products are available, they're not necessarily something that people will be looking for.

Because, as you say, I think willow coffins to become a bit more popular. But actually it was only that somebody that I know who found you on Instagram and said, oh, I've seen someone who sells woolen cottons and coffins.

Sorry, I'd never actually heard of that before. So that's.

And I think that's always tricky, isn't it, when you're the first to do something because people aren't necessarily looking for what you sell.

No. And I'm like, there is. There is a lady who makes like a soft woolen coffin.

It's like a shroud in the uk, and then there is another wool coffin maker in Yorkshire. But like you say, the biggest hurdle that you have to overcome is people knowing that you exist.

I've been working on that a lot since this July, really.

I've been taking the coffins that I make out and about and getting into the public, like shows and events and just turning up and talking to people about what I do. And the response has been amazing.

I can see that. Because I think they are lovely to look at and they're so much. Yeah, they're. They are.

You know, I'm trying to say this, how to figure to say it, but they do look like, nice and they. I assume. I have never seen one in real life, but I assume they feel lovely and just more tactile than wooden box.

So I can see that people would respond well to them.

How easy is it, if you don't mind me asking, to sell a product that, let's be honest, lots of people don't maybe want to think about the fact, you know, death and burial, does that bring any challenges?

I think there is like a preconception that people don't want to talk about it or be faced with it, but when you're out in public and people see them, they. The response is completely the opposite to what you would expect. So there is. There's good humor, there is excitement, there is absolute fascination.

You get people who look at them and don't quite understand what they're looking at and then the penny drops and they'll say, oh, Is that what I think it is?

And then they're over and the lid's coming off and they're looking inside and they're examining how it made people ask to get in them to see what they're like from the inside. Yeah, it's been really fascinating. The response is so positive. People take selfies with, to share with family members and friends.

That was the one thing I was not expecting, was the selfies. But yeah, really positive response. I think in society, like funerals are, I guess you go to the funeral director, don't you?

And that's when end of life choices are most often discussed.

But once you take them out into the public and I think, because I like to think they're not threatening my coffins, I think they're like you say, I'm hoping they're like warm and sort of inviting seems like a silly word, but there's just something about them where you want to touch and look and know more about them, that it draws people into that convers.

Yeah, that makes sense. And what sort of events are you going to when you're of meeting people?

So I've just, I've just done a couple of weekends at Hay Castle where they had an exhibition of the Guild of Spinners, Weavers and Dyers. So that was fiber artists and people interested in the fiber arts were there visiting. I've just. What did we do as well?

I've been at the Elan Valley for an activity weekend where it was on display there in amongst the mountains and the sheep that it comes from, the Royal Welsh show, which is a huge show here in Wales. And that was to get it out amongst the farmers there and to show them, hey, this is what I've been doing with your wool.

And this is the business that I'm working on building. So it's just working out, I guess, where people who are going to be most interested in what I'm making are going to be.

And then trying to make sure that I get there so that I can talk to them and show them what I'm doing.

Well, that's brilliant. And we'll talk a little bit more about the farmers in a minute if that's okay.

But I was coming back to sort of talking about products that are really unique and how about selling them online and talking about them online. Do you, do you have any challenges there?

Because I can totally see that when someone sees your products, they come over and they have a look, they get what it is and they can interact with it a bit more. Is it Harder online and on social media. Or, or not. I'm just. I'm just genuinely really curious.

It's fascinating. So on.

On TikTok, they get a huge, like vocal response on TikTok and people engage with the posts and respond and talk and are more conversational on Instagram and Facebook. What I find, it's almost like. It's almost like cataloguing what I'm doing. So it's there. People don't tend to comment or respond quite as much.

But then when I go out into public, they will tell me, oh, I've seen you on Instagram, I've seen you on Facebook. I think it's wonderful. I love seeing your work. So I don't know why the differences in the actual like step to respond.

But yes, you do see a difference in response. But it's.

I think it's still important to show up on both platform, all three platforms, because people are still seeing it and they're still remembering it. And if they're approaching you in public to say, I've seen you, I'd rather that almost than a like or a smiley face. Do you know, what's it mean?

Like, it's just they're remembering you and to be remembered is the most important thing really, when you're trying to sell a product.

I think that's really interesting because I'm wondering why the difference is and I'm wondering if it's a slightly different audience, maybe across the different channels, because that is fascinating that it's presumably the similar or the same content and to get such a different response. Is it. Do you find it's a product that people. That's easy to talk about online because to be what. The reason I'm asking this is because I don't.

I don't think I have ever seen coffins sort of advertised or on social media before I came across you. I just don't think I have because I. And I don't know why that is. Maybe lots of places don't advertise them, possibly because they're not unique. Yeah.

How have you found that? I'm just, I'm just really curious because the only person I've spoken to I can genuinely say sell something that nobody else is selling.

I think it's. I guess it's to do with algorithms.

At the end of the day, if you are looking for ecological coffins or biodegradable coffins or you're interested in that sort of thing, it will start to show up in your feed. If you're perhaps following Willow weaving on Instagram as a tagline. It might show up in your feed then, and you might occasionally come across one.

You might come across a willow weaver who also makes coffins and you might start to see them that way. So, yeah, I think it's just like I said, I think it's algorithms and the world that you're looking at.

So on Instagram especially, and Facebook, there is a whole side of it that is funeral celebrants. The funeral directors are on there, the green burial grounds are on there, the weavers and independent coffin makers are there. So they are there.

I think it just depends on what you're looking for and whether your eyes are pointed in that direction or not.

That's such a useful reminder because I think that obviously everything online, the online world is so, so big and sometimes it's easy to forget that you're only seeing the curated part that the algorithms have decided is relevant for you. And that makes total sense, that. And actually now, maybe because I'm following you on Instagram, maybe I'll.

It'd be interesting to see if I get more things pop up, actually, because I do think you're right. What you're looking at and who you're following dictates what gets put in front of you. And that's.

That's actually quite easy to forget because we're also used to seeing our own little part of it.

Definitely.

And that could be the difference in the response on TikTok as well, that I think on Tick Tock you get communities and they're very vocally passionate about certain causes and purposes. So you'll have. The farmers are more on TikTok and they're more like talkative about the things that they're interested in.

Then you've got a whole crafting network on there as well. So on somewhere like Instagram, you might get the odd like and a comment, or you'll get people like, I'm cheering you on quite a lot.

TikTok is more conversational and dissecting the reasons behind things from like a community and society level. So that could be the difference in response there as well.

So it might just hit a slightly larger audience on their algorithms than it does on TikTok, which is, like, you say, it's a curated image network, really, isn't it? Like, they're just. They're very different platforms.

Yeah, that's really interesting. And while we're talking about the farmers and the wool, let's talk a bit about the Farmers Wool Fund, a bit about what it is and what you're doing.

So the, a huge part of the reason of the business is to help the farmers unlock the value in their wool. And there's a lot of talk about farmers diversifying and a lot of the farmers like where I am. It's just not always practical.

I live in between two mountain ranges. We have a lot of hilltop farms, a lot of isolated mountain farms.

And to be able to diversify, they are already working every hour there is under the sun. So they can't really be setting up second businesses for second incomes. Some can and that's great, but it certainly doesn't.

Doesn't happen for all of them. So I kind of look at it and I think they need to be able to realize as much value as possible from all the projects that they have.

So I return a share of the profits for the benefit of the farmers. So I ring fence for every item there is that we sell. I ring fence a share of the profit into something that I have just called the Farmers Wool Fund.

It is the private wool fund that belongs to the Woollen Cwtch company and from that I will use it to make direct payments to farmers. Like an additional wool payment which includes increases the value that they're getting for their wool.

It goes to charities like the RABI, which is a huge farming charity. It's used for agricultural projects and to support the increased value of wool for all UK farmers.

So, yeah, just the idea of it is that it is going back into the farming community and yeah, just trying to support their.

That's amazing. And I'll be really honest, I don't know much about the farming community and about wool in general.

Is wool one of those things that there's a lot of or is it quite scarce? I don't actually have a sense of that, actually.

I'm in Wales, so wool is hugely abundant. Where I am, no wool is naturally renewable and we have it in abundance in the uk. Every year the sheep are clipped.

It's part of their welfare because if you didn't clip them, they're susceptible to things like fly strike, which can lead to horrible, horrible things for the sheep. So every year we shear our sheep in the UK and that produces millions of tons of wool. So it's such a great resource. It's so versatile.

Like you can turn it into fabric, you can turn it into rope. They make things like tree guards out of it now, carpets, clothing, insulation. They grow seaweed on it, on this rope here.

So it's used in the seaweed industry. You name it wool pretty much covers it. I even like the packaging.

So if you order like online groceries and you have meat delivered to you, it will often come in wool packaging because it's so insulative and helps keep everything cool. So yeah, we're really lucky in the uk, but we need to use it.

That's what I was going to ask you. Yeah, sorry, this is exactly what I was wondering that if it was a case of we have a lot of wool, does it all get sold and does it all get used?

I guess yeah, it does.

The wool that goes through the Wool Board gets sold every year. They do manage to get through their stocks every year. There is also a lot of wool that languishes in sheds and on farms for many reasons.

And then you have all that is sold through the merchants as well. That's usually extra exported, I believe.

But I think we have got so used to man made synthetic fibers and materials that we've forgotten almost that we have this incredible material that is right there at our fingertips that pretty much outperforms all the synthetic materials I can think of.

And I think we just need to switch the way that we're thinking again and not see it as going backwards, but almost like looking at our history for the future, to do better in the future and start looking and thinking, well, what would be an alternative? We wanted to stop using plastic here. Is there a way that we could use wool instead?

And just trying to come up with those solutions for it, it now making use of what we've got, that makes.

A lot of sense. And so I think it's great that you found a use for all of this wool.

And also by using wool in coffins, we're obviously not using wood as well, which is obviously another resource.

Yeah, you're reducing the like, you are reducing the use of like. There is obviously there's a solid wooden base in them for cremation. They have to have a flat wooden base.

If they're for burial, they can have a woven base as well. But like you say, it just, it's reducing the pressure on the other resources for sure.

And the great thing is that if we use the wool in burial and cremation, we're using it. So that's creating space for the next season's clip and then we use it again and we're using it for a genuine purpose. It is actually doing good.

You know, it's nourishing the earth or it's helping to reduce the emissions from cremation.

So I think, I think there's so Many opportunities that we can genuinely apply it for good rather than just sort of coming up with, oh, well, we could use it in this way, actually. No, this is a great use for it. It's a perfect use for it.

Yeah. And I think it's amazing that you've sort of taken it and found the use and found the use for it as well.

So rather than just thinking about what could be done, you're actually doing it. And are you buying the wool? Sorry to ask so many questions about wool, but genuinely it's fascinating. Are you buying the wool from the.

From local farmers, directly from the farm, or is that not how it works? I don't know.

So no, I work both ways. So this, this I. It comes from sustainable rope, which is Kate Drury. This all comes through the British Wool Marketing Board.

So this is fully traceable. It's come through their sorting, their grad depots. It can be traced back to like specific areas.

And then this wall here is from a local farmer who lives up the lane from me. I know the sheep, I know the hill. So this is a locally sourced wall. You can buy your wool directly off farmers as well. It's a difficult one.

It's a difficult one. Through the Wool Board is like the ideal way to do it, I guess, because it is supporting the wider UK industry.

But you're always going to have that mix where you have the Wool Board, you have wool merchants, you have people who will go to the farmers directly and I think that's good, I think that's good for any market, that there's a bit of challenge in it and a bit of balance in it too.

Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you and thank you for everything that you've explained today.

I've genuinely found this so fascinating and I'm delighted that I was introduced to you and suggested to have you come and join me as a guest. So I will put links to everywhere everyone can find you in the show notes, so all your social media handles and your website as well.

And I have one final question before we end, if that's okay. So I would love to know. Thank you. What would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators? So, anyone else with a great product idea?

I think it's that determination you have to just, just know in your mind that you're going to work it out and it might not look the way that you think it's going to look when you finally get there. You have to be a bit flexible with it, but you just have to know that each time you attempt it. You're learning something.

And to take that it's not a failure if it doesn't work. You look at the parts, what did work, what didn't work, why? Okay, so what's next?

And you just have to, you have to keep going and adapting and it, eventually you hit that tipping point and then suddenly it all comes together and you're out on the other side of it. So it's resilience and don't give up and learn, learn as you go.

That's really helpful. Thank you.

And I have to say, when you were speaking earlier, I think you were a great example of that because it sounds to me like you came up with the idea and did it. And I know that it's never as simple at the time as just doing it. I know there's a lot more to it than that.

Oh, no, absolutely.

When I was hand rolling the wool rope and it was, it took me days to hand roll enough wool rope for the first coffees, I knew it couldn't carry on like that. But you know in your head you will find the solution for it because you're looking for it.

And once you've started looking for it, like, the answers start to come.

Yeah. And I think momentum is important as well.

So I think just keeping going however you're doing it and like you say, knowing that actually things will work out and things will change.

But keeping going, I think is absolutely key because it could be very easy to say, right, I'm not going to do anything until I figured out this whole list of things. But that day might never come, to be quite honest.

No, exactly, Exactly. I think the people that move and keep moving are the ones that get there, aren't they?

And like you say that you can always find an excuse to put something. What's it called? Is it eating the frog, I think they call it.

Isn't it like doing the tasks that are most challenging that you don't really want to do but you know are going to create the most momentum? And you just, you keep doing that, you keep doing that, you keep doing that and it gets easier as you go.

Definitely. Well, thank you so much, Eleanor. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

You, thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.