Knowing your customer – with Siena Dexter – SmashBrand

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas To Life podcast, practical advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host Vicki Weinberg. Today, I'm talking with Siena Dexter. Siena is the director of brand strategy and associate partner at SmashBrand where she helps consumer package goods brands win on shelf through qualified co consumer metrics. Siena's main interest is in behavioural economics and quantifiable ways to predict human behaviour, which happens to be exactly what SmashBrand does best. So this was a really interesting conversation I had with Siena. We spoke about packaging branding, um, how to get the customer's eye. We also spoke a lot about research about knowing the market, knowing where you fit in, um, all of these things that, of course you've heard me mention before, but Siena really is an expert. So I hope you find this conversation really interesting. And I'd love to introduce you to Siena. So hi Siena. Thank you so much for being.

Siena Dexter: 00:01:07

Hi, Vicki. Lovely to be here. I'm really pleased to, um, yeah to join this podcast and be, uh, part of the show.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:14

Thank you. Well, let's start with you giving introduction to yourself, your business and what you do, please.

Siena Dexter: 00:01:19

Sure. Absolutely. So I'm Siena, I'm director of strategy at an agency called SmashBrand. What we do is brand and packaging design, and what we do different is we test the packaging. So we introduce consumer testing to ensure that when packaging goes on the shelf, we know it's going to perform before it even hits the shelves. Um, so that's what we do uniquely through quantitative testing. Um, as well as all the packaging, strategy and everything else that you'd expect from a brand and packaging agency.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:51

That's amazing. Thank you. And I'm just going to jump right in and say, how do you test, um, the brands and the packaging? How does that process work?

Siena Dexter: 00:01:58

That, that, that is the one thing I always get asked on podcasts. Um, it's the most interesting thing, isn't it? Because that's that's I suppose what we do differently. Um, I'm going to say that that's um, that's a question that has a multifaceted answer. So we do do quantitative. Um, through not so much. So when you get kind of AB split testing, say you're testing a website and you are doing AB split testing, does this tagline work better than that tagline? Does this design work better? Where are we losing clicks? Where are we getting people following our funnel towards, um, you know, the buy now, the basket. Um, it's not like that reason being, it is harder to um, how are consumers going to behave in a retail environment simply by doing a very simple AB split test? So, what we do is a lot more comprehensive than that. We start our journey of understanding consumers, right at the very beginning, sometimes doing primary consumer testing. So primary research into drivers to purchase how consumers, so let's say for example, um, a brand we recently worked on, well, I can't name the brand because it hasn't launched yet. But a product we recently worked on was mayonnaises um, a very old, um, brand of mayonnaise that's been around since the twenties, really amazing established audience, loyal customers. They wanted to elevate the brand from, um, from perhaps a more budget, um, kind of look or more budget, um, positioning in the market to be more quality, um, to be of higher quality and more of a luxury brand and more, um, kind of more elevated from the positioning they were in. So we had to really understand kind of at the start of it, how people are. How people are consuming mayonnaise, why people are consuming mayonnaise, what is at the heart of mayonnaise, um, and really kind of looking past the product and understanding, um, what is the story that we need to tell, um, looking at other brands and saying, what's the story they're telling? Um, what is the consumer journey? Um, what are their tensions? Um, for us, we found all mayonnaise is kind of the same. Um, so you just default to Hellmann's. Um, We, we get to that by our primary testing, but also through just understanding how consumers are thinking, this could be kind of asking every Uber driver that, you know, we meet what their favorite brand of mayonnaise is, asking our friends and family, ask literally anyone that we can, and then obviously through a more scientific approach as well of, um, testing this, um, quantitative. Um, through data, um, not specifically for mayonnaise, but for other brands we work on as well. Then through that, we build out the story that we want to test for, um, in our consumer testing. So once we have the concept, we understand the overall story that we're testing for. What are those parameters? Are we testing for taste? Is that important? Are we testing for standing out in the category versus fitting in. Are we testing for this gives me a sense of status. Um, what is that overall story we want to tell for consumers? And then through that, um, through that lens, understanding how well the product is going to perform quantitative. Um, so that was my, um, long winded answer to your question.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:26

Well, thank you. That's really, that is really interesting. And I'm guessing as well though, with the example of the mayonnaise a rebrand is something even is something different as well to launching a new product because presumably consumers already have a view of that brand and who they are and who they're for. And if you're trying to change that, I guess that adds another dynamic to it.

Siena Dexter: 00:05:47

It's a lot harder of course. Um, because they already have a loyal base of customers. They are already perceived as let's say quality, um, a quality product, and really in the case of this brand, it does taste great. Um, it does, it's winning on taste tests, um, compared to other products, um, but just from its perceived look, it's seen as a budget product. So for those that know and love it, they've seen past the packaging. They've got heritage, they've got, this was in grandma's table. What I grew up with it's synonymous with mayonnaises. Um, this is how they, how they enjoy the product. Um, whereas for new, for new customers walking past it on the shelf. They need to be told that story. Um, so it's bridging the gap between not, not losing all of that brand equity and also transmitting that story in a new way, visually and through words, understanding the benefits, the why should we buy this unpack in three seconds? Um, because that's the time it takes to secure the customer and. Draw them in to look a little bit closer, get tempt them, to pick it up off the shelf or have them look past you to the next brand along.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:05

Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm just thinking now that you are right when you sort of go to any island, a supermarket and there's all this choice, you know, you, you are, you are either looking for something particular because it's your favorite brand or it's just where your eye lands. Um, but yeah, that must be, there must be so much that goes on to thinking, okay, which is going to stand out on the shelf and which will grab consumers. Yeah, I think. I can't imagine everything that goes into that.

Siena Dexter: 00:07:31

Yeah. So much. It's and it really, it really comes down to, and it's the same way as kind of, um, if you're writing kind of website copy, I suppose. And that's, you know, just thinking back as back to my days as a copywriter, when I was trying out all the different things I could do from social to websites to, you know, obviously packaging copy above the line, retail marketing copy that I, um, did at previous agencies. You know, that you've got to make that land in a few seconds. You've got, even if you think in terms of above the line, you have an advert and you have a tagline and that's got to immediately in a couple of seconds, where you've got someone's attention, on the tube, if they're going up and seeing it, you know, on an escalator or sorry, the subway for American listeners, um, or on a billboard, it's going to instantly convey that feeling. That sense of, I want to know more just through one line and an image that really hits home. So what we do is very much like that. We have a few more words to play with. But it has to convey the benefit, the, what it is, the what it does, the why you should buy me and an overall brand look and feel as well. Um, and a sense of what you are getting inside. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:47

It sounds it. Yeah. Let's talk a bit about customers um, if that's okay. So can consumer behaviour be predicted? Do you, now we know after years of working in this area, can you predict how consumers will react?

Siena Dexter: 00:09:06

Well, yes, because we test it. So, um, so it's a little bit easier for us. We can, we can predict it through understanding how trends are evolving, for example, um, we know that it is important. It is important for people that brands are transparent, sustainable, healthy. We also know that at the same time we are perhaps lacking that enjoyment of sometimes just letting ourselves go a little bit, right? Like just giving yourself a treat, just having that piece of cake, having that thing. That's a bit naughty or, you know, drinking that, you know, drinking that beer, drinking that side of forget the low alcohol. We know that these are trends that are alongside each other. But I'm understanding how they're actually going to perform on pack. Again, we, we rely on that data to drive, um, our understanding of it. And still, even then it may take a couple of different rounds of testing, different ways of asking different questions, different groups of consumers to give us the best steer towards predicting consumer behaviour.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:21

Thank you So our podcast is for small businesses. Many of them are just starting out. So I would love your take on what are some things that small independent brands can do to stand out in the marketplace based on all this knowledge that you have.

Siena Dexter: 00:10:36

I would say the first thing that your listeners want to think about, if they are a small business starting out, it's not always about standing out. I know, um, quite controversial, isn't it. Everyone wants to be disruptive. Stand out, be different. You need to think, do you want to stand out or do you want to fit in because that's also a strategy. Sometimes, um, if you think perhaps in a toothpaste category, you kind of just want to fit in, you kind of want to just slot in there quite nicely, um, with a lot of brands that are say, challenger brands, um, brands that are doing things that are trending new and different fitting into new trends, like adaptogens, like vitamin water, CBD, all of those, um, wonderful products that are coming to market. I think perhaps if I reframe that question instead of how do they stand out in the market, I would say a better thing to think about perhaps would be how do they better connect with the audiences that they want to win over existing brands in the market? And there's a simple answer to that. And that's understanding what makes them, what makes them stay up at night and get out of bed in the morning? What, what makes them tick? What bugs them? What's their tension. If we're thinking about things like, like a CBD drink, you know, why would you choose that? If we're thinking coffee? Why, why do you have your cup of coffee beyond you just need a pick me up. What does it really give you? If we're thinking of coffee and we've worked with an, um, a coffee alternative brand that was doing, um, adapted, the formula was adaptogen mushrooms. Um, like, um, reishi, chaga that gives you energy. That does the same thing. Coffee does tastes like mushrooms um, but gives you that feeling. And what we understood was that beyond just a pick me up in a focus moment, coffee also delivers that. Treat that moment of time for me, that break between tasks. So what we found was instead of fitting into the burning, the midnight oil, staying up all night, working hard at eighties culture. What we wanted was to say, this was your, this is your time for you to invest in you, to, um, take that moment that break away and refuel renourish and then approach your work more focused. So. Again, if they want, if your, if your listeners want to think about how they can really be digging beyond the product and understanding what really, what, what does it mean to their customers? What is their, what does their product add to people's lives? I think that's hugely valuable and that's something that you can do yourself.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:34

Thank you for that. A massive takeaway I'm getting from, as we're talking is knowing your customer and knowing them well is just vital. Whether you want to stand out or fit in. But I think just generally, if you want people to buy your products, knowing who it's for and what they're looking for and why they're looking for a product like yours and what their concerns are, I think, yeah, that sounds to me like the basis of all of this.

Siena Dexter: 00:13:57

Absolutely. I think, gosh, it's, it's a difficult one to say, but I would say that the advice that I would always give is you need to make people care about your story. Because imagine if it's kind of a person that you've just met. Imagine if your brand is a person that you've just met, you've met them out. You don't know them from anyone else. And all they do is start telling you about themselves. They're just talking at you. This is my heritage. This is where you know, this is, this is my grandma. This is, let me tell you all about me. You'd be like, okay, maybe, um, maybe I'll go talk to someone else for a minute, but if they make that conversation engaging, if they make it a dialogue, If they show you that they're speaking to you because they get you, you have that connection. So in that sense, that's what brands need to be doing. They need to be thinking about this as a conversation, not as, um, a monolog.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:56

Thank you. And along those lines, and I haven't actually prepared these question. I'm sorry, we'll throw this at you, but as you were talking, I was thinking, so when we talk about making connections, how important is it or is it important, particularly if you have a small business and maybe it's just you or, or just, you know, just a handful of people, how important is it that there's a face to the brand and a person behind the brand? Is that important? Um, and if so, how important? Because I'm just thinking in terms of making connections.

Siena Dexter: 00:15:22

Not necessarily. It isn't necessarily important. And, and, and actually, this is an interesting one because I ate my words recently when I gave advice to a friend who I, I know through kind of a London, well, it's not, it's actually a, a UK, um, Facebook group called the food hub. Um, and I gave, I gave someone advice of not to use her last name as her brand. So not to kind, not to basically say, oh, it's, you know, whatever her last name was to use that as her brand name, um, and use her face, actually, she's gone on to do some amazing things. Um, so I think when it comes to a very, very strong personality, I, as this person had and a real drive and a passion and that real kind of captivating, almost celebrity like personality, that's so addictive, um, that people just want, they follow her. Like she leads kind of groups in our area as well. Um, people she's the kind of person people will just follow, um, and want to be around in that aura. Um, I think in that instance, I think that it's beneficial to use, you know, whatever, whatever your brand is, whatever your personal brand is. But this is a founder led brand. If we're thinking not all brands are founder led brands, some brands perhaps don't have that charismatic founder, perhaps. Them will behind the scenes, perhaps they don't want to be that it could be a group of, uh, a partnership of founders. It could be that you have, um, ambition to grow and eventually have a board of directors and exit. Um, or if you're a serial entrepreneur and you want to launch this brand, get it to a certain place. Exit launch another brand that really having it connected to you personally may not be the best idea. So it really depends on the brand, on the person and what your ambitions are.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:16

Yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you. I just wonder, because you do get so much advice out there, particularly for founder love brand small businesses, you know, perhaps it's one person, you do hear a lot, you know, put your face out there. You need to, you know, you need to be out there. You need to be the face of your brands, but not everyone feels comfortable with that anyway. And so I was just really curious on your take of whether that was essential, particularly if like it's not you, do you know what I mean? For some people that's just not them to put themselves front and center of their own brand.

Siena Dexter: 00:17:44

A hundred percent. And aren't we then just going to get a bunch of brands that all just have first name and either kitchen pantry, um, country, um, whatever else, uh, did. Yeah. Uh, if, if you go into kind of any. And a lot of new brands are aiming to get into stores. Like whole foods come organic, the independent stores. Um, a lot of the new brands come out, independent brands, that's their ambition. And if you look at everything on the shelf at the moment, I would say a high percentage of it is name and then either kitchen or pantry after it. Um, and, and it feels like it's a little bit, it doesn't really give a sense of the personality of the brand. I don't think that. It benefits the brand, unless you know who, who this person is, unless they've made a name for themselves, um, on TV, in the media, they're very active. They're being featured in magazines. They're very comfortable in that celebrity status. Um, it, it perhaps isn't going to be beneficial or build the brand or help connect with customers because it's all just about them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:18:50

Yeah. That makes sense. Thank you. So let's talk about a little bit about making a brand a best seller. What does that take?

Siena Dexter: 00:18:58

Wow, that's a big question.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:00

So I think these are all quite a big questions. Apologies for that Siena.

Siena Dexter: 00:19:04

A big question. What does it take to make a brand, a bests seller? Um, I would start by saying. Um, have, have a damn sorry. Can I, can I swear, have a really good, have a really good product. It doesn't matter how good your brand is. Your brand could be absolutely excellent. Your branding spot on, your marketing spot on. You could be, have a million followers and social media and be engaging people. If I open that product and it is not good. I'm not coming back. So, um, I think first of all, having a great product and being passionate about what you are doing, I think connecting with what the cultural narrative is and understanding where the trends lie. I would say as well as investing in a, a brand that connects with people or creating a brand that connects with people. I would say, making sure as well that you kind of have all your ducks in a row for when you are launching. So if you've invested a lot in packaging design, you also need to make sure that you have a solid social strategy. Again, that's not something that we do as Smash Brands. So I can't a hundred percent speak to that, but we do see brands that perhaps launch and don't, um, and it, the packaging strategy or branding strategy hasn't translated to social or hasn't translated to their website. And then it doesn't give that customers that confidence in the brand, because it's saying one thing on one platform and another thing on another, and it's kind of hard to get a sense of it. Um, you lose a little bit of trust with that. Um, and as soon as you've lost a bit of trust, if you are inconsistent, even like, as a person, you know, people go, oh wow, they were this this way one day, and they're a different way another day. And you, you kind of start losing, losing trust in them. So I would say, what does it take to make a brand, a best seller, are blood, sweat, and tears. A great branding strategy, blood, sweat, and tears, a great product. I would also say just, just keep going. You just keep going with it. Um, listen to the experts, get as much advice as you can, but also know when to ignore it. Um, know what works for you and understand what works for you in your audience and be sure in that, um, is what I would say. I, I, I hope that that's a good enough answer, um, because there are so many different variables to it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:39

That is a good answer. Thank you. And one of the things I like that you said was to keep going, because I think sometimes people can be disheartened if things aren't an overnight success, don't take off on day one, because I've spoken about this on the podcast recently that sometimes it appears that someone's come out of nowhere, that products suddenly selling really well. And you know, when you dig into it, actually, they've been around for three years, five years. Whatever, and they've just suddenly taken off or suddenly reached a lever where more people don't know about them. Um, and I just think that's really important to just acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily happen day one does it?

Siena Dexter: 00:22:14

It is a full-time job for, for founders, for kitchen table brands, or one's just starting off. It is a full-time job and more it's it's constant. You think about it all day from the minute you wake up to the minute you go to bed it's and that passion, that passion translates, um, I, I think making sure that you are also getting in, getting into retailers as well, getting in front of customers, uh, as hard as it is to get buyers interested, making sure that you are doing that. And then when you are in a position to scale up and in a position to really take it to the next level, I would say it is crucial to recruit, um, a team of experts once you're in a position to do so to help you scale up to that level and help you to penetrate the market with more insight and in a more strategic approach.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:05

It's interesting. Thank you. And when you talk about recruiting a team, what are the kind of roles, what are the vital things that you think once someone reaches a level where they're like, okay, I want to upscale, or I want to take a step forward. What are the kind of things that you think you should be looking to get expert advice on initially?

Siena Dexter: 00:23:22

I think, I think initially it's absolutely crucial that you have a solid brand strategy in place. It can be something you can do yourself, but I always think that whilst, um, I've seen some fantastic brands that, you know, are just, you know, just managed and marketed by the founders and they've done a great job. Usually I see those founders have come from a branding background or they've left a branding agency to found the brand or they've got marketing background. And the difference is when, when you work in the industry, your job is to know the trends. Day in, day out. You are launching brands day after day after day. And you've been doing that for, you know, a decade. Your expertise will just be different. You will just be able to give better recommendations over what is a strong strategy, um, how that's going to land, you understand trends, you understand people, you also understand buyers and understand what they're looking for. So I would say that you would want an agency with, um, a strong strategy aim, um, erm, even you would want an agency that is able to justify why the designs work in a way that can be backed up by data, um, by social science, by understanding consumers or trends, and be able to explain specifically why this would work for your audience, an agency that will work with you collaboratively as well, to understand your vision and help it translate and scale up. So it would need to be, it would need to be a team that is very commercially aware. Um, this doesn't mean that you can't work with kind of smaller agencies or, you know, independent designers, but when that happens, I would say that you very much will be guiding the process yourself. So it depends on how comfortable you feel doing that. And if you feel that you can play the role of creative director, um, perhaps guide the strategy and pull everyone together, then that's something that could be an option. If you want to leave it up to a team that you know, already work well together that already have a proven track record. Nice. I would say that's what you need to look for.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:41

Thank you. That's a great answer. Thank you. And you mentioned then buyers and knowing what buyers want. Um, obviously you've got lots of experience here. Um, are there any things from your experience that you know, that buyers are looking for or things that brands should at least be considering if they're thinking of approaching buyers?

Siena Dexter: 00:25:59

Yes. I think if you can show any kind of statistics for how your product performs with customers. I think that you've got a solid, a solid chance, I think, saying to buyers or proving to buyers or showing to buyers, buy your pitch, that these are the trends we're aware of. We're aware of why our product stands out here is everything else on the shelf. This is why you should consider our brand, our product, what we do, why we do it differently and why you're going to see more sales. Here's some data to back it up. Here's how we've, you know, here's, here's on a, a small local store. Here's, here's how we performed compared to, um, the product next to us. It might make them sit up in lesson and say, okay, let's give it a chance. Um, It does help if you, it does help if you've got an in with the buyers, if you've met them at an industry event, if you are able to do a little bit of networking, um, get to know them, obviously do not harass them. They do see the emails. So, um, it, so, so don't send them multiple annoying emails, just, um, be polite, be persistent, and they respond to results, um, over flattery or fluff.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:13

Thank you. So it sounds like knowing the market, knowing the competition, having data to back it up is super important. Um, I had a guest on recently who was talking about getting her product stocked into supermarkets, and she was mentioning that when she was speaking to buyers, she actually had to say, I think she should take this product off the shelf and put mine on. Because she was explaining that they can't just keep adding products, that her products be included. Something else had to leave. Is that the case in all industries or is that just specific to the food industry? Do you know whether you should be kicking someone out to get your product on?

Siena Dexter: 00:27:48

Um, I would say that's not necessarily something that a, uh, is that, that a founder needs to say, if they're not confident it's, it's a bold move isn't it going?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:57

Oh no.,what I mean is she was mentioning. Yeah. Oh, she was mentioning that for supermarkets, which is what she was approaching. She was mentioning at the supermarkets. You, you were, you literally had to say who you felt you could take the place of in order to get stocked on the shelves, which I hadn't heard of. So is that, it sounds like from what you're saying, that isn't the case necessarily for every industry. Because to me, I was quite surprised. I thought, wow, that sounds really cutthroat. Having to say kick these guys out and put me in. I thought, wow, that sounds quite harsh. So it sounds like that's not the case with every buyer of every industry.

Siena Dexter: 00:28:29

It's something that I've, that isn't something that I've heard from any of the clients we've worked with, um, in terms of how they get their product stocked. Usually it's a relationship with a buyer, an existing relationship, or if they're a new brand, it's having a connection with a buyer. And this is both for UK, um, UK brands and US brands we've never encountered, or I have never encountered or heard of, um, a situation where you have to literally say we are better than this specific brand. I think showing that you are offering something that is better than their, um, the supermarket owned brands, um, and also brands that are stocked in the market, that it's something consumers are going to be coming in and looking for, um, that they're going to be primed and ready through your marketing efforts. They know who you are. You perhaps got a loyal base of, um, customers already. If you're direct to consumer, you can show sales, you can show how many people are already buying and loving your product, and they'll be primed and ready to run into the store and buy it. That demonstrates that they they're going to fly off the shelves instead of, um, having dead stock. Um, but that's, I mean, that's interesting to me, it's news to me. I, I haven't heard of it being that cutthroat, but if, if that's what this person had to do, then, um, I suppose good on her. Did she manage it?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:48

Yes, she did.

Siena Dexter: 00:29:50

You can't say who got kicked?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:52

No, no, no, I don't. I don't. I don't need to know but, um, yeah, I found that. Okay. So I think that might be actually though, that might be really reassuring for people to know that you don't have to necessarily do do that. But yeah, I found that really interesting and surprising as well, but I guess that, um, yeah, maybe there are some places where that, you know, that is what you have to do. Um, so let's talk a little bit. Pardon?

Siena Dexter: 00:30:14

I was just going to say, I think you've just got to be true to yourself and your brand. If, um, if an approach like that isn't in aligned with your brand values, then I think it would seem yeah. Just incongruent with, with what you are doing with what your mission is and what your values are. So I think just being true to that, um, and just approaching every point of communication, um, as you representing your brand values.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:38

That's really useful advice. Thank you. Because I agree, like for me that isn't something I could, I would ever feel comfortable doing and I think people can probably tell when you're not being authentic and you're not being yourself. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that's probably quite obvious, so yeah. Yeah, I think that's good advice. Approach things in a way that feels natural and comfortable and sort of represents you and your brand. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more, we have touched on your brand messaging. Um, but let's talk a little bit more about that. What, what else do we need to think about when we're thinking about the messaging around our brands, whether that's all the packaging or the advertising or websites, um, what do we need to consider? And again, I know this is another really big question, Siena.

Siena Dexter: 00:31:18

It's actually a really simple one. Um, actually this is a nice, easy one. Um, hard to execute, easy to explain. I can talk about what you need to think about in terms of your brand, um, voice and tone um, and packaging. If you think about websites or advertising, that's not something that we do. We don't do activation at Smash Brand. Um, however, I, you know, I, I, I have worked in these industries before, but if I just speak to kind of the first two. I think, what do you need? What do you need to have as your brand, as your brand messaging was the question. Um, let me speak to, um, the, um, unpack messaging first of all. So we call them pack words at Smash Brand. Um, it's something that we can measure something, we can quantify things. Like if you are say hard sell sir brand, do you want to call yourself a hard sell? So, or do you want to call yourself a spiked soda? What do you want to say that you are? If you're mayonnaise, are you real mayonnaise, are you classic mayonnaise. What are you saying? Uh, about the descriptor about what your product is? So you obviously have a brand name, then you say what you are, you need to decide on what that is, and that can be based on, um, ideally a survey of consumers to understand which they respond to best. Then you need to decide on maybe a SKU name, for example, if it's, um, a lovely tonic to help you sleep better, maybe it's, I don't know, called goodnight or something else, or like something else is descriptive that brings through your brand voice. That's a creative line. I'll touch on that in a minute. Then it's also important to understand why you should buy it. So it should have those clear benefits. What does this do? Why is this special? Why listen to this or not the next CBD brand or adapt to Jim Brown that's on the shelf. You also want to be including in there and understanding what callouts your customers are responding to. So that could be vegan, gluten free, um, anything like that, sustainable, uh, recyclable packaging, all of those extra bits and how they also fit in within your overall design. Now I just want to talk about the creative lines, like, for example, how do you know what you should name either your brand or your SKU? Um, sorry. SKU Stock, Keeping Unit. Um, so product in the range for those that aren't aware. So how do you know what name you should give to each product? How do you know how creative it should be? How should it sound? What should the tone be? That's something that we would usually work on with a client through, uh, a brand tone and voice workshop. So we start off by doing our overall brand workshop to really identify how the product should communicate, who the audience are, identifying what they need, what they like, what you know, what their gripes are and how we overcome them. If the product were a person, how would they behave? And then we dig in deeper to understand those elements of brand voice. So is it positive? Is it happy? Things like trustworthy is something that all brands say, things like honest is something that all brands say then should be everyone should be honest, right? Trustworthy goes without saying, but is it playful or is it wit. Um, which ones are more important? Is it informative or is it cheeky? So understanding how to dial up those elements and how to communicate in each, on each touchpoint, say. If you're sending out an email to say your products, um, will be late, should it communicate in a different way? Maybe it's not going to be with your punny. Maybe it's going to be more caring and understanding. So understanding your overall brand voice will help you to know how to communicate on your website, on your social, on your packaging, in your emails, and any other place that you are connecting verbally with customers.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:26

Thank you. That is a lot to consider Um, and coming back to the packaging, and this might be a really daft question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Um, how much, you know, do you need to have on your packaging? Because I can see that having, you know, people might be listening and suddenly be tempted to put everything on their packaging. You know, this is vegan and organic and or whatever the, the words are, and this is what it does. And I don't know whether you've seen that where people want to just throw everything onto their packaging. Um, What, what are your thoughts on that?

Siena Dexter: 00:35:57

Um, I would say that you want to keep it minimal. Um, the more, um, I would say that, think about the packaging as a story that you're telling or an infographic, perhaps, maybe that's an easier way to understand it. Your eyes are drawn to certain elements. You land on one element first, and then your eyes are drawn to another one at each point that, um, in, in that journey you could lose the customer very easily. So if you're asking them to consider all of these things in equal measure, it's confusing and confus confusion leads to, um, point of sale, um, loss and immediately losing the customer because they just can't be bothered. It's it's too much to think about, um, in the same way as websites, you don't want to, you don't want to confuse, you don't want to make people think, you just want to have, you know, guide them to that decision by understanding what's bugging them, what's on their mind, you know, really, you know, sell them in a nice we'll connect with their needs. Oh, you're not sleeping well at night. Well, this is going to help you. And it does this and this and this, and by the way, it's vegan. So understanding what's important to them connecting that with a visual storytelling and just having a cohesive message that you look at and go in three seconds. What is this saying? And actually that's a really great litmus test and something that we always do when we are defining brands, we always say, what is the three second message in three seconds? What is this doing? And this is something that your listeners can go and do in supermarkets. They can take a whole of products or empty out their pantry, line them up in front of themselves and go, what is this saying in three seconds, this is giving me nostalgic font cereal. This is giving me, um, nineties, seventies style pasta. This has given me authentic artisan pasta sauce. Um, as an example of things I've consumed recently, um, understanding that it's going to help your listeners to as to make sure that it's telling the right story in three seconds, in words, and in design.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:08

That's really useful advice. Thank you. So I guess what you're saying is that your packaging has to reflect what your product is, what it does, all of that.

Siena Dexter: 00:38:15

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:16

Just con condensed.

Siena Dexter: 00:38:18

Yes, absolutely. It needs to tell a story. It needs to tell a story. I know that sounds a bit vague, but really I should say. What is it? Look, who is it? What does it do? Why should I buy it? But not too many points of information, condense them down. If you're doing callouts, I would say just do three, no more than three callouts ever. So choose the most important ones you can sometimes put them on the back. Think, are they important on the front? Do they need to know it's vegan? If it's say loose tea, um, loose green tea, maybe they need to know vegan. Maybe they don't need to know. Perhaps this can go on the side or the back, but just make sure that front retail area is dedicated to, what's going to immediately connect with your customers and make it clear. Um, make it easy to understand, make it welcoming because no one likes the cluttered house so no, one's going to pick up a cluttered product.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:09

That makes sense. And I, I think it also makes sense coming back to what you, right at the beginning about knowing your audience and what they're looking for. Mm-hmm um, because I've actually had the opposite recently where a client I was working with on their Amazon listings and they actually didn't mention there was something about the product they actually didn't mention to me even, with the brief of can you write the listing? And when I found out I was like, you know, if I knew this, this should be like. This is to in far as I was concerned, was like quite a key, yeah, thing. And it was really buried. And, um, as I said, me, it's only my gut, that this was a key thing that was missing and perhaps, but they hadn't done, they haven't done any testing. So I don't know for sure, but my gut said, actually, this is something we need to be telling people about it shouldn't be buried. So I think that's really important as well is to do that. Sort of understanding to know what people, you know, if they're looking for a product like yours, what is it they're looking for? Um, you know, what are their values? Because, you know, but as you say, some of us are looking for coffee because we want a pick me up and some of us are looking for, you know, it depends who you're aiming it at doesn't it.

Siena Dexter: 00:40:09

Absolutely. I saw a really cool coffee brand when I was in Utah recently, I think it's just called Wide Awake or something. It had like a picture of some like crazy owl on the front, like a massive cartoon with enormous eyes. And actually, like I gravitated towards that. I was like, oh, this is different. This is in your ordinary like nurse cafe. Um, this is, this is for fun creatives that want to stay up all night and write crazy copy, um, and do crazy branding. And I was like, that's me. Um, because that immediately connected with. With what I was looking for in a coffee at that particular time, something fun. That's going to make me stay up and, uh, give me fun ideas. So it's understanding your niche, understanding of people and what they actually want. Not being afraid to, to stand out if you want to. Um, but also understanding if you need to fit in. And that's okay too.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:07

Yeah. That like, that makes sense. And like you said, I think it depends who you appeal to because sometimes you want to fit in, but actually sometimes you might be just targeting, like, like in your example, you're targeting one type of coffee, coffee drinker. So the coffee drinker, like they want to be creative and stay up. Whereas there are other types of coffee drinkers who just want to sit down for five minutes and take the weight off their feet. Whatever. So I guess it's knowing.

Siena Dexter: 00:41:29

It's not, um, it's not a cup of Joe for the average, Joe, is it? Um, it needs to be, that's a good line. I'll remember that. Um, it, it, it needs to be, um, you need to have understood who your, who your customer is, and if you're going to make a brave choice, make the brave choice, um, finding a niche is always a good idea. It's always a good idea. Sometimes you want to also just appeal to a wider range of consumers, perhaps you're not ready to make that jump. And in that instant, understand, understand what it is that they're looking for, you know, with Nescafe, for example, as a brand, it's very much about, it's not just about, it's not a stay awake brand. It's, it's that comfort of coffee. Everything about the brand is kind of nourishing and comforting. You think frothy coffees, the kind that tastes delicious and you can kind of settle in with them and curl up with them. And that's the sense that the brand gives you rather than a cartoon owl with enormous eyes. So you, you can understand the difference in the intent between that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:32

Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess the word you just said then intent, I guess, I guess the main takeaway from here is just to be intentional, whether you are appealing to a wider market or whether you're actually going for specific needs. I guess niche is just being intentional about who you're targeting.

Siena Dexter: 00:42:46

Exactly, exactly. And, um, yeah. Being, being brave, being brave, if you want to, I suppose.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:55

Well, thank you Siena. And thank you for everything you've shared. I've got one final question for you before we finish. Um, and it, it is quite a big question, but hopefully you can, you can think of an answer for this one, which is what would your number one piece of advice be for small, small product business owners in particular, because that's who we are talking to. So small founder led businesses. Um, what's the one thing you'd like them to say. I mean, obviously there's been so much they can take away from this episode. What's the key message.

Siena Dexter: 00:43:22

The thing that I would say. And the thing that I see small businesses, um, founder-led kitchen table brands, not doing more often than not is flipping their story to be about the consumer. Um, flipping the story to make the, the hero of this story. Um, the real hero of the brand, the consumer. So the hero, isn't the founder. It's not the recipe that's been passed on for generations. It's not the packaging, it's not their mission. It's not their values. That's not the hero. The hero is the person picking up your product on the shelf. What did they. You know, what's the big challenge in their life. What's the big crossroads, how is your product going to be the one that steps in and makes their life different? And that elevates their experience that day. Um, that gives them that special moment, understanding that and underpinning that to everything you do is the one thing that I would say would really put you head and shoulders above what anyone else is, is really doing at the moment, especially at an early brand level.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:27

Oh, that's great. I like that. Thank you. That's really good.

Siena Dexter: 00:44:32

Oh, pleased you liked, yeah, I, I, I, I think it, it it's as simple as just connecting with the consumers and as difficult as just connecting with the consumers, because especially if you are, if you're launching a brand, it's all about, it's all about your passion. You want to get out, you know, you want to get out of your commute. You're nine to five job. You're an ambitious entrepreneur. And you want to tell everyone about your journey and why you started the brand and why your product is great. And it's so difficult to move away from that and go, okay, it's not about me anymore, it's it's about what I'm doing, what product I'm delivering, what experience I'm delivering to the people, picking it up and spending their money on it. Um, and the same goes for buyers as well. Um, making it about them, what you bring to their role. Why choosing your product is going to give them the promotion.vUm, why they'll be glad they didn't miss out on this opportunity.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:26

That was brilliant. Thank you. And again, thank you for everything you shared today, Siena.

Siena Dexter: 00:45:31

Fantastic. No problem.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:33

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the full back catalogues and lots of free resources on my website vickiweinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.