How to safely formulate cosmetics – with Dalia Hawley

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas to Life podcast, practical advice and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host, Vicki Weinberg.

undefined: 00:00:22

Hello. So today I'm talking to Dalia Hawley from Dalia Botanique. So Dalia sells her own botanical beauty products, so she formulates all of her and makes all of her products herself. Um, and we had a really great conversation about botanicals and what they are. Obviously, I, I didn't know, I'm not sure if you know, uh, but you'll know after this episode. And we also talked a lot about the compliance side of creating um, beauty products and the testing and um, sort of everything that goes into that and how to know, um, that products are safe. And she also gave some really useful advice as consumers as well. So if you are purchasing your own beauty products and particularly if they're handmade, um, what to look out for, um, to know that they will be safe for, for you. So I thought that was a really interesting insight as well as everything else that Dalia shared. So, um, I'm going to stop talking and introduce you now to Dalia. So, hi. Thank you so much for being here.

Dalia Hawley: 00:01:19

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:22

Oh, you're welcome. Shall we start with you? Please give an introduction to yourself, your business, and what you sell.

Dalia Hawley: 00:01:28

Yeah. So I'm Dalia, uh, from Dalia Botanique and I sell skincare. And a lot of my products are aimed for people who like spending a lot of time outdoors who love gardening and want a sort of minimal skin care routine that's still going to really look after their skin, but not at a really high price.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:47

Oh, that's amazing. Thank you. Well, that's like a really good succinct description of your products. That's fantastic. Thank you. Um, so Dalia, what inspired you to create your skincare range? Take us right back to the beginning.

Dalia Hawley: 00:02:00

Yeah, so I used to make sort of balms and, and things like that for, for friends and family years and years ago when I was a kid. Um, and I had a massage business, um, not as a kid, as an adult. Um, and through there I started making my own massage oil blends. Uh, and I kind of started to think, Oh, you know, I would quite like to sort of look into it a bit more into making my own skincare. Um, and I don't know if you could call it luck, but lockdown happened. Um, and then one side of me, I've lost, I lost the massage work. Obviously we weren't working. Um, but then I suddenly had all this time to set up my skincare, uh, business. I moved in with my other half. We had a garden. Um, I redid the garden. And then all the inspiration for all the botanicals that we grow, I was like, oh, we can use a lot of these in skincare. I started doing a skincare course with, um, the state school in Huddersfield, and then Formula Botanica, an online skincare school. Um, and, and then yeah, it just started to develop from there really, I started making more products and yeah, it just really took off. So that was kind of the whole sort of background of it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:13

That's amazing. And so had, had it been at the back of your mind that this was something you would like to do?

Dalia Hawley: 00:03:20

Yes, Yes, it had. Yeah. Yeah, because I was always thinking, as I was running the massage side of things, I was looking for a bit more of a passive income, so if I couldn't work for whatever reason. Um, and so the massage oils, you know, I was making my own massage oils and, and working with an aroma therapist to make some sort of other products. And then, yeah, just from there it's kind of like started developing even more. And then it was just, it was almost like a natural kind of end to the massage and beginning to the skincare, so it sort of blended in quite well together.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:51

Yeah, I mean, like you say, you don't want to say that lockdown was lucky and, and I completely know what you mean here, but I guess the timing, I guess, was quite kind of fortuitous because I guess you had the time to actually work on those. When you have a day job and you're just you know, working, it's very hard isn't it, to kind of carve out the time to do anything else.

Dalia Hawley: 00:04:10

Yeah. Definitely, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:12

So that does sound good. And you mentioned, um, the garden and you mentioned sort of growing things. Should we talk a little bit about the botanicals? Because I don't know much about botanicals, but I do know they feature in your product. So can you just explain. Yeah. What they are and, and why they're good for us.

Dalia Hawley: 00:04:28

Yeah, so I use, um, so I noticed that a lot of the wildflowers that we could grow and it was just kind of, it sort of married at the same time that I was doing my skincare courses. So there was like, oh, these, these oils that we use that, you know, that from flowers, so botanical flowers that we grow. In the UK you know, we've got like, um, borage for example is really good. You know, that's really nice, dry oil. Um, and then you've got sort of lunaria, which is, um, trying to describe it obviously it's kind of like a pink flower and they're called, I can't remember the name of them. When they're dry, they're kind of like a clear sort of circle and you can see inside like a moon shape and you can see the seeds inside. You'll know it when you saw it, when you see it, but it's really distinctive. Uh, and they grow wild everywhere. Um, and so I had that on and the poppy as well. So suddenly I was like, oh, you know, um, I was finding sort of poppy, poppy seed oil in some of the literature that I was reading and I was like, oh, okay, you know, that that grows locally as well. Like actually I'm growing it in my garden and, um, evening primrose as well and calendula. Um, and I think calendula and evening primrose they're more of those kind of historic botanicals that we know. But I know my grandma used to, you know, make a calendula oil and things like that at home. And, um, lavender and rosemary as well, you know, they're all growing, you know, I was growing all of those in my garden as well. Um, and so I was like, yeah, of course, you know, this lavender essential oil, rosemary essential oil, um, and all those, they, they all harbor really, really powerful properties as well. So, um, yeah, and obviously I remember my grandma used to make me lavender hair rinses as well, just from dried lavender soaked and water. Um, I can't remember whether it was actually, whether it actually worked or not, but you know, it was something that we always did. So, yeah, it's an, actually, there's. A lot that we can get from some of these botanicals, those flowers.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:31

Oh, thank you for explaining that because I, I, I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't entirely. It sounds really silly doesn't it? But you don't, you realize, you don't know what you don't know. This might also be a really silly question. Um because I don't know how big your garden is, but are you sort of, um, I don't know if making is the right word, but do any of these elements come from your garden?

Dalia Hawley: 00:06:54

Sadly not. I would love to, but, um, you have to use cosmetic grade ones. Uh, so believe it or not, you know, we might, they might not look like there's any little insects or anything on there, but there is. So, um, yeah, you usually have to buy them. And from a company that have. I think, I don't know exactly how they do it, but they almost quite clean it, so, you know, you haven't got like bugs in it or anything like that. Um, so no, I do have to go and to get it cosmetically assessed, it has to come from a cosmetic grade, um, company, which means they, they kind of make sure that, you know, it's all properly cleaned and, and and safe to use for the, for the conceiver as well. So, but they do use the, the companies I do use do use sort of use UK grown botanicals as well. And I think there's two that actually, three suppliers that grow their own have their own farms. They process, they grow it and they process it all onsite and stuff, which is brilliant. So yeah, I'd love to use my own but it has to go through vigorous testing to get it allowed in.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:59

That makes sense. I think what I was thinking of, it sounds like a silly question, but I think I was thinking back to, you know, you were talking about your grandma and I think that perhaps if you were doing it for personal use, it's absolutely fine, isn't it? You can take what you want, but it does make sense that if you are selling it, and yeah, it would need to be of a certain grade and presumably you have to go through testing and things like that as well.

Dalia Hawley: 00:08:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. But if you've got some of those at home, there's no reason why. I've got my Instagram, I posted, um, a video on how to make your own lavender green bags. Um, you know, I've, I've infused, uh, rosehip oil and things like that before, all at home for personal use, so guidelines. Chamomile as well. Can't believe I forgot that. It's like the most popular herb, uh, chamomile as well. I've trued that and used that as well. So for personal use yeah, absolutely fine to, to use the product, so.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:51

Well, that's good to know. Yeah. And hopefully you'll inspire people as well to sort to sort of see what's in their garden and how they could yeah, could use it.

Dalia Hawley: 00:08:59

Definitely. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:02

So it, So it sounds like, so once you come, you, you know, you had a bit of space to sort of think about your skincare range, and then you mentioned the courses that you were doing. So how did you go from there to having products? What was the process of actually, um, I guess is formulating the, the, let's go formulating. That doesn't sound like the right word.

Dalia Hawley: 00:09:20

No, no, that's, No, no, that's exactly the right word. Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:22

So how did you go about with, with formulating your, your products and, and working out ingredients? Would they. They'd have. You can see I'm a little bit out of my depth with skincare

Dalia Hawley: 00:09:36

No, not at all. You're asking, you're asking all the right questions. Um, yes. It is called formulating because you are putting something together. It's a bit like a science experiment. Um, so the way I start doing, obviously I had all the course notes and then the courses that I was doing, first of all, so school and then Formula Botanica, you have recipes that you can try and experiment with. Um, they, you know, they send you a list of all ingredients, all the properties in, they get everything kind of sent to you. And from there you just sort of, you just start experimenting, you know, watching, um, YouTube, I don't know if I can mention it, but someone called Humblebee and Me, an American, uh, lady, and she's you know, she, she formulates loads of products, puts it all on YouTube. She's brilliant. Um, so you just start learning and, and reading and researching and then it's trial and error. So you've gone through hundred of different formulations. Um, and really it's, it's, it's trial and error. And then sometimes you might, you know, you come, eventually come to a point where you're like, Okay, well I'm going to take the bits out of this that work and I'm going to remove the bits out of this that don't work. Um, And then you are using sort of willing friends and family as guineapigs as well. And then they all give you, I've got some friends who are very good at giving me quite honest feedback. Um, so yeah, they became some of my guineapigs and yeah, and just from there it's just like a trial and error and eventually you, you find, the one that works and the one that you like the most. So it's quite a long process.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:09

It sounds like it. It sounds really scientific. Because I guess you're having to keep, you know, meticulous notes on how much of this you've used and how much of that, and there were so many elements as well, aren't there with skincare because it's how it feels like the texture and the benefits, what it does and how it smells like there's so many things involved.

Dalia Hawley: 00:11:28

Yeah. Yeah. And you calculate it all in percentages. So. So then you can upscale or, or downscale, um, how much you make. But yeah, there's lots of things you have to go through. So obviously testing and then, um, oh God, I can't remember the name now. Basically stability testing. Yeah. So I'd put it in like different rooms around the house or different temperatures, you know, does it change? Does it solidify? Do the oils change, the smell change? All those kind of things, You know, like, okay, how is it after like three months, um, you know, does it still smell and feel the same? Does it change? So, you know, on a hot summer's day, I know that my body butters have no chance in surviving, but my oils are alright. So yeah, it was just one of those things you just, you, you just have to kind of do all these stability tests as well. So yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:17

Wow. I didn't even think about that because yeah, you're right. I mean, we've just come from a really hot summer, haven't we? So I guess in a way it's a good chance to test out how things react.

Dalia Hawley: 00:12:26

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:28

That's a lot to think about because you know, presumably if you'd sort of formulated all your products in winter, um, it could be very easy to get around to the summer and then find out everything melts or changes consistency or. It's really involved.

Dalia Hawley: 00:12:42

Yeah I had that, I had definitely this summer, I, I wasn't sending body butters out to people. I was just like, no, because I can't control the temperature once it's left. So on, on the labels they were saying, you know, store somewhere cool and dark, keep out of direct sunlight. But then, you know, when we have post strikes and things like that, I don't know how long they've been left in a van, a hot van for or hot building or you know, it's just not worth the risk. Um, yeah. So sometimes I do tell people not to put it somewhere like hot and sometimes, yeah, I've had people leave on the window sill and things like that as well and I'm like, no. So yeah, you do have to go through all these testing and you realize you know what, what kind of temperatures it works then of what it doesn't work in. So, yeah. Yeah, that's a lot to think about.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:30

And do you need to have any external testing done as well?

Dalia Hawley: 00:13:34

Yeah, so I, uh, the way it works is for all cosmetics to be legally compliant. You, you go to, uh, a cosmetic chemist, uh, who is a cosmetic assessor. So they're specifically trained in being able to assess your recipes. You don't need to send samples in, uh, you send your recipe in. Um, and they're usually pretty good, you know, they're really, really good at kind of telling you what you need to send in. Um, you send you know what your label look like. You send your product description in, um, and how the instructions for how to use it and all the ingredients and the percentages or the gram of amount you have in, and then they will kind of look at that and say, actually you need to remove this or you need to change this or this needs to be, especially with essential oils, because they're quite toxic. You know, we think about them as being quite healing and, and stuff. Actually they're quite toxic in high doses, so they often tell you to change, you know that as well. Um, and they're the ones that sign it off. So if anything were to happen you know, um, they are kind of legally responsible for your products in a way as well. So yeah, you have to go through that. Um, with my body butters, I use, uh, I, I infuse chamomile and calendula in oil, um, and I have to send samples off to a lab, um, to, to get tested, just to make sure that there, there's no contamination or anything like that. Um, but it's, it's easy to do. It sounds like it's a lot, but it is actually, you know, It is, it is quite easy to do. Um, and obviously peace of mind that you are legally compliant as well. Obviously it's worth, worth the money too. I think so, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:10

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because it sounds like, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking there's more and more obviously you have to be aware of and think about. It must be really reassuring actually, to have someone external who said, yes, you're doing all the right things.

Dalia Hawley: 00:15:22

Yeah. Yeah. And they're really good. Like, if something's not, you know, if, if for instance, they're thinking it's really not going to work, or you've got too much of something, they, they will kind of tell you to change it. So yes. And they send the reports and everything as well. So yeah, we'd be surprised how many people don't get testing though. I mean, I have been to craft markets and seen products and I kind of just have to like turn away now because it is a bit scary if, if sometimes people just don't do that process, which is bad.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:52

It is. And is there a way, and maybe there isn't, but is there a way as a consumer of knowing whether someone has done the testing or not, do you know?

Dalia Hawley: 00:16:01

Um, you, there isn't really that much you can check. It's difficult because I can't, don't quote me on this, but there was something about that you couldn't say that your products were cosmetically assessed for some reason or another. I can't remember why. Uh, but I can always get back to you with that. But they, I, what kind of stands out for me is I look at, I look at a label, um, I look at kind of what safety information they put in. I've seen people selling face mists and not putting preservatives in there. Water is a breathing ground for bacteria. Uh, so if you, if you're selling like face mists or room mists or anything without preservatives, then that straightaway is a red flag for me. Um, you know, you know, I will challenge someone on that as well. I have challenged people about that as well. Um, so it's usually things like that I can kind, I have like a list of red flags that, that I can see things and how things are written and I think, mm, hang on a minute, has this person actually gone through the, the process? And sometimes it could be innocent, sometimes someone just doesn't know. They need to go through that process, but the information is available online so you've really not got an excuse, I think.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:14

Yeah. Yeah. That is really helpful. Thank you. Because I was just thinking as a consumer, you, you wouldn't necessarily know that somebody had to have that. But I think I'm definitely, from what you said, I'm definitely going to be looking at safety labels and products and assume if there's no safety directions, that's probably a red flag, isn't it? If there's nothing.

Dalia Hawley: 00:17:33

Yeah. Yeah. You can even tell if someone's not, you know, put allergens on or how to use, how to store listed ingredients properly with what's called the INCI names, which is like the full kind of the full name of, of that ingredient. You know, little things like that that are just mm, or anything with no preservatives in, but they've got water in. Yeah. There's little things that kind of start thinking actually, have they actually done pretesting? So, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:58

Okay. Thank you. And I'm not asking and you know, to try and call anyone out or scare anyone.

Dalia Hawley: 00:18:02

No, no, no, no.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:18:03

It's just, I'm just genuinely interested because I think for the interest of transparency, it's, it's just good to know this kind of thing, isn't it? And it means, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It might put people off buying it. It might not, but at least, at least you're aware. Um.

Dalia Hawley: 00:18:18

Yeah, Yeah, definitely. And I think trading standards are, I have, I did read a story about trading standards, actually going to a market not that long ago and shutting a few places down. Um, But you know, for people who are thinking about making cosmetics, the information is out there and people are happy to give that advice. And I've spoken to trading standards before about labeling and they've been so helpful. You know, they're not people to be scared of. Um, and they will send you all the correct information and then you've got that email to say, well, trading standards have given me this, you, you know, this information about labeling, so you've got your backup, you know, so these people do want to help. Um, so you can go out and get that information of how to be legally compliant as a cosmetic seller too.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:02

That's really good advice. Thank you. And it's good to know because I, you can see that you may think, oh, Trading Standards that, you know, you know, they're big and they're busy and they're not going to be approachable. Yeah. So it's really good that you've had that experience because I, Yeah, I think you're right. Generally, if you ask someone is willing to help you because, you know, everyone wants things done correctly and, and safely. So, yeah, I think that's great advice to just reach out if you're not sure because it's, it's much better than guessing.

Dalia Hawley: 00:19:32

Yeah, definitely. Um, another thing as well that I've got to go an a bit of a rant about and I'm quite passionate about it, but if people are making medical claims about their products, like if people say, oh, it cures eczema or anything like that, that's another red flag. If you're saying that it cures any kind of skin condition, it needs to be a medical pre certified product, which you can't really do easily. You know, you have to go through a you know, a lot of companies and certifications to get that. So again, if people say, oh, it cures this, or it cures that, or, you know, of this skin condition, and I'm just like, mm. Have you been medically certified to say that? Probably not. So yeah, there's lots and lots of stuff around labeling that that's uh, yeah a red flag for me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:15

Yeah. And I have heard, and I've forgotten, which, which the body is and isn't Trading Standards, but I have heard of people's websites being shut down because of, of those kinds of claims. And I know that you know it, people are getting sort of stronger on it. So. Um, for on Amazon for example, they will not allow anybody to make any medical claims that can't be backed up. And actually even selling cosmetics you do need to provide, um, your safety data information and sort of prove that you've gone through the testing process, which is great. I'm not sure if all marketplaces are the same. I don't know if Etsy's the same, for example, but I do, you know, Amazon is definitely getting quite tough on that, which it, it can be frustrating. Because even if you have it all, I know that it's, you know, it feels like you are being asked to jump through hoops, but I, I do think it's, it's good that someone's kind of vetting these products before they go onto a marketplace. Or buying them.

Dalia Hawley: 00:21:11

Yeah. And even stuff like labeling. You know, look, people, the products are organic, but they've not got certification to say that they're organic. So again, it's mis, it's misleading, it's actually illegal. Um, so things like, you know, cruelty free, but we can't, you know, we're not allowed to test on animals in this country, so there's lots of things to be really careful about with labeling, if you're labeling something organic, but actually it's not being certified organic, then again, that's, yeah, you need to, you need to know what you're putting on your labels and not. Put anything that's legal on there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:43

That's good to know. And, and obviously you don't need to say how much, but is there, are there costs involved in going through these testings, whether it's to certify your products in organic or to certify that they're safe? Are there costs involved?

Dalia Hawley: 00:21:57

Yeah. So it isn't the cheapest. Uh, you know, you're talking sort of in hundreds of pounds. Um, but again, you know, if you want develop cosmetics, you have to have the money for that. Um, there are now coming up on the market, which I think is really good, especially people are quite new to cosmetic making, is a lot of the cosmetic assessors will sell, um, pre-certified blends and products. So you can actually buy the assessment and then they give you the recipe. And then sometimes you can have loads of different variations on there. You have to follow it all to a t obviously, but you know, you can buy that, you can buy the variations that you know you can buy, say like, one cream. It could be a hand cream, it could be a, um, hand and foot cream. It could be a body lotion. And then you'll get like a choice of essential oils in that you can add in as well. Um, and you can buy the base products and then add these oils in. Um, and they'll do all different kinds of products like that, like base oils, beard oils, shampoo stuff, body care. Um, and sometimes that can be kind of a more affordable, um, avenue to go down. I mean, I've certainly considered it for other products. Uh, and that's a really good way to have all the safety data, have your own skincare. But not have to pay, you know, a much higher price for your own formulations. So it's usually a good gateway in.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:15

That really makes sense. And I guess it also save you time as well, because the formulations, I presume, have been worked out for you, so you know that as long as you stick to the recipe they'll work.

Dalia Hawley: 00:23:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or you can even buy the base of something as well and then add your own stuff in. So.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:32

Yeah, that really makes sense actually. That seems like a really good way of entering safely and yeah, as you say, spending a bit, a bit less time as well.

Dalia Hawley: 00:23:41

Yeah, bit less time, bit less money.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:44

That's really useful. Um, also, and I'm sorry to ask so many questions on this. We've gone down this, we've gone down this path. I'm really interested now, um, if you're formulating yourself, does anyone ever come and check up on you, sort of where you are making them and how you are doing it? Because I know, for example, if you were to make food products at home, you would have your kitchen certified and Yeah. You know, I don't think it happens very often, but presumably someone can come along and check that everything's clean and, and everything else do, does something similar apply when you're formulating cosmetics?

Dalia Hawley: 00:24:20

Yeah, it can do, Yeah. So you need to have on your labels that if your address or your safety data is, is stored, paperwork and everything like that. Um, so that's on my labeling because it's my home address. Um, and yeah, if they wanted, if they had any kind of suspicions or they thought that anything, you know, there was something wrong with the products, there's absolutely no stopping, uh, Trading Standards coming around and, and wanting to see all my paperwork. So obviously probably unannounced as well. So you need to make sure you've got it all to hand, so.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:49

Oh, thank you. I just hope you don't mind me asking. It's not that I'm.

Dalia Hawley: 00:24:52

No, no, no, no. It's fine. It's good, good to know. I think then people who are listening who want to go into skincare formulation, you need to have this information, you know, you need to know these things. So, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:03

I think so. And not to obviously to scare anyone or put anyone off, but I think it's, there's nothing worse in finding something out six months down the line, for example, where you think, oh, I wish I'd known that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because often we can find ourselves doing, not doing things wrong, but perhaps not doing things we should be doing because we just don't know that we should be doing it. So I really appreciate how much you're sharing because this is.

Dalia Hawley: 00:25:25

No, no, it's fine.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:26

I think this is so, this is so useful because it's, you're being so transparent. I think anyone who is thinking about skincare and cosmetics is getting a really clear idea of what's involved and that is really important.

Dalia Hawley: 00:25:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:42

So let's talk a little bit, if you don't mind, about your actual ingredients for your products. So you mentioned that they're grown in the UK is that, is that right? And was that part of your vision from the start that you wanted to source from UK suppliers?

Dalia Hawley: 00:25:59

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Especially when, you know, I started, started gardening. I had quite a lot of time on my hands in lockdown, uh, like many people. So I started transforming my other house garden. Um, and yeah, so I decided there and then actually, you know, this would be a really nice kind of twist to add to it. Um, there are a few brands that use UK Botanicals as well, so I'm not the only one. Um, it's not possible to get everything from, from the UK. Um, but I get lots, but I get lots of stuff from UK suppliers. Um, I had a lot of problems with Brexit. A lot of my ingredients were cut off, so yeah, I'm still recovering from that a little bit. Um, but yeah, so I mainly work. All, all my suppliers are within the uk because it's just more cost effective now um, rather than trying to get it abroad. And thankfully they all stock everything here as well, which is a bit of relief. But, um, they will obviously have to import certain things, like things like the shea butter, coco butter, you know, we can't produce that here. Um, certain oils as well that I use, you know, they can't be produced here because we don't have the weather unfortunately for mandarins and bergamot and all the, you know, things like that. So they do have to be imported. But I, I go through UK suppliers for that. So. And then, yeah, the ones, the UK grown botanicals, um, there's three of my suppliers that have their own farms and they grow their own and process their own, or they use um, farms locally for them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:27

Oh, thank you.

Dalia Hawley: 00:27:28

The UK one.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:29

Yeah. And was that an, an easy process or was it quite hard to find what you needed in the UK and because I'm always really fascinated by sourcing because I know that yeah suppliers are such a key part of, sort of the journey and often it can be really challenging to, yeah, to find exactly what it is you need.

Dalia Hawley: 00:27:49

Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. I spent ages working, um, now within, when you, within a kind of industry, and I don't know if you found this, you kind of get to know who the good suppliers are and so, especially because I was doing courses, they had lists of suppliers too, which is, you know, they give you all the information as lists. So you're not starting from a completely blank Google looking for, for suppliers. Um, and then just through there, just through, through looking through these suppliers, um, I found them. And then I was Googling, I can't remember now how I came across uvularia. I'm sure I saw it in another product or I was Googling, like UK ingredients, UK grown kind of skincare, and I found uvularia and then I found the, um, farm down south that, that grow it and process it. And then they, um, from there I found that they have borage and white poppy. And then two, I found two other, two, the other suppliers, um, we have the lavender and rosemary as well. So it kind of all sort of linked in eventually. But yeah, there's just a lot of Googling and I was just lucky because I did the courses I got like loads of lists of suppliers as well, which helped. So I wasn't starting completely in the dark.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:04

That's really useful. And I guess that was another benefit of doing the course as well because also presumably there were people, you could have asked if you got stuck because they'll know the industry.

Dalia Hawley: 00:29:14

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you have your own Facebook groups as well. Um, especially the soap school, you know, that was what, two years ago? You know, I'm still in their Facebook group. I'm still in a formula botanical one. So yeah, there's always, you know, you can pop on and say, Right, I'm really struggling to find this. Can anyone help? And someone always pipes up, so, which is good.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:36

That's really nice, isn't it? Because I feel that sometimes there can be a misconception that, you know, it's all, everyone's in competition, but I've actually found completely the opposite. And often if you ask somebody, I mean some of the sort of suppliers I've found have just been by saying, does anybody know someone? And I think if people have someone that they're happy with and, and they work well with, usually they're nine times out ten, they're quite happy to just share that because it benefits everyone.

Dalia Hawley: 00:30:02

Oh definitely, definitely. And you know, I've got those friends who are formulators have their own skincare brand, but I don't see it as a competition because there's enough for everyone and we're in different markets as well. So, you know, I've got no problem with suppliers and things like that. So yeah, we're completely different as brands and different audience. And like you say, there's, there's enough skincare product for everyone. So, you know, it's not like something that's really niche and, and that, you know, people only buy from you and someone else is competition. So, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:36

Yeah. I mean, I guess the only, the only exception to that is if someone actually copies you know, outright. Oh yeah. Copy cutting somebody else's brand. But I don't think that, well, in my experience it doesn't seem to happen a lot. No. Um, is there any out of interest though? Can you protect your formulas if you wanted somebody to not make exactly what you were making? Is, can you do that? I know that. Sorry, it's another question.

Dalia Hawley: 00:31:02

No, it's alright. I gotta think now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:31:03

It just suddenly struck me that, um, there, there must be cases where actually with skincare and with lots of other things, that there must be sort of people selling pretty much the same thing, but we as consumers just aren't aware of that because we don't know they're using the same or similar formulations. I, I assume, um, maybe I'm, yeah, maybe I'm wrong.

Dalia Hawley: 00:31:24

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Actually that's a good question. I'm sure I've come across this before and I can't remember what the answer is. I know you can trademark your brand's name. Yeah. Um, but I don't know about formulation. I can't remember off the top of my head about formulations because I remember, um, when you were saying that, it just reminded me of how high street shops are now doing cosmetic, uh, dupes. Aren't they the most expensive? Wasn't it the Audi? I think we've got some really good, I'm seeing lots people posted about some of the Audi skincare of how it's exactly like, um, you know, some of the famous brands.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:00

I think it's Elizabeth arden or something, isn't it? I've heard it compared to.

Dalia Hawley: 00:32:04

The Audi shop hemp as well. I found a body shop, hemp cream, exactly the same ingredients, but it was Audi. I was like, ooh, how did, how did they do that?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:14

Yeah, that's what got me wondering actually, because, um, I'm quite a fan of that, of the Audi skin care range because it's good quality and it's, Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, a quarter of the price of some of the yeah, of the bigger brands. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. That did get me wondering. I mean, I'm, I'm assuming that if you are a massive, you know, if you're Nivea maybe, or whoever owns Nivea, maybe you can protect your. I don't know, maybe, but then I don't know who would policed that. I know I'm going really off track now, but it did, it did get me wondering because there's no such thing as an original idea is there? Really?

Dalia Hawley: 00:32:48

No, no, no. Oh, absolutely not. You know, and I honestly, when I was researching my formulations, I was looking at brands that I like and think, oh yeah, you know, I really like their kind of, the whole brand, their ethos, their ingredients, you know, so you have to be careful that you could, you don't go down that hole of like, I'm going to try and replicate what they're doing. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I'm sure I've come across this before and I can't remember off the top of my head what the answer was for this. I know you can trademark your name. I don't know about your recipes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:20

Perhaps it's something that's sort of reserved for the brands with a lot of money. Because I can't imagine it's, cheap.

Dalia Hawley: 00:33:25

Yeah, they have their own legal teams and, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:29

But it does make sense what you were just saying though, about looking at other products that you like because I suppose, yeah, I mean, whatever products you're creating, I always say to people, look at what your competitors are doing. Not to copy, but you know, if they've got a particular scent that you like or yeah. You know, you wouldn't copy like for like, um, and hopefully you'd be looking to improve what they were doing. But I think, you know, we do need some, we do need to get inspired from somewhere. Yeah. And also just know what else is is there as well. It's just good to know like where you, where you fit and what makes you different. So yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with looking at it.

Dalia Hawley: 00:34:05

No, no, no, no. It's good. You should be and see what's out there and stuff, what people are doing. So, yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:34:12

So let's move on a little bit if that's okay, and talk about actually sort of when you started to sell your products. Um, because it sounds like this, you know, the formulation stage was really big. And then presumably you also have to work on labeling and packaging, and there's lots that goes into that. So when were you ready to start selling and how did you do that?

Dalia Hawley: 00:34:32

Um, so I think it took me about a year to, to go through the process. Um, And I was already lucky that I was selling some of my massage products in a shop called Fabrication, which is a social enterprise indie shop in Leeds and Wakefield. Um, Leeds and Wakefield Leeds in York. Oh my God. Um, yeah, Leeds in York. I live in Wakefield and have a shop in Wakefield. Um, and so the owner of that store said, yeah, you know, bring your products in. Uh, obviously we were in lockdown, so everything had to go online and then, you know, um, so it had to work like that. That was a bit strange. Uh, and, but yeah, they're on the shelves there now. And, um, I moved to Wakefield, so I approached the art house in Wakefield and they were, you know, they were really keen to have it, so I approached kind of, um, sort of more indie retail spaces, uh, because I saw they were working with more sort of local businesses as well. So I knew they'd probably be a good fit for, for my brand. And then I again, knew of Etsy and people were selling on Etsy. So I started, I head down that avenue first because it's quite an easy set up. You don't need a website, you know, it's quite self explanatory. Um, and it's very popular as well, so people know about it. And then I sort of went over to Shopify sort of later on, so earlier this year with my new range and moved my whole brand over to Shopify.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:00

Thank you. And how did you, um, so are you still on Etsy as well as Shopify now, or are you purely on Shopify?

Dalia Hawley: 00:36:07

Yeah, I still got, um, I've still got a shop on, on, um, Etsy just in case anything happens to Shopify. I don't, I get like a couple of hits on it, but not as much now as now that I've kind of moved over. Um, so yeah, so I still get a couple of hits done there, but I use it more as a, as a backup just incase.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:25

Yeah, that makes sense. It definitely makes sense not to just have, you know, if you, if you, if it's relevant for you to be in two places, that totally makes sense. But yeah, it's always good to have sales on your own website, isn't it? Because then there's none of those fees and, and everything else that just eats into your margins.

Dalia Hawley: 00:36:41

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, and you know, I'm open to Amazon as well if it fits So, you know, when I first met you I was like, oh, I've never thought of that. Amazon, could I sell on Amazon? So that is something that's been in the back of my mind actually since, since I found your company and your brand and everything.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:59

Oh, we can, we'll talk about that when we, when we're not recording, but yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, Amazon can be a good place for, well, for all kind, all kinds of, of products and it definitely sounds like, well, like I said, we'll talk about it in more detail, but just for anyone else, cosmetic brands, it definitely sounds like you have everything you need because you've been through all the certifications and you can prove that your product is safe and it's been tested. Those are the kind of the key things that you need to have and in terms of whether, you know, what the market's like and things like that, something different. But it definitely sounds like you have all of the components, which is really important because if you don't, um, you can't, and that's, that is the bottom line, you know, if you haven't had your products tested, You just can't do it.

Dalia Hawley: 00:37:42

No, no, no. It won't get on there. So it's not worth it. The cost you pay to get, because you, you know, if someone sees you, because yeah, they have a skin reaction that's going to be 5, 6, 8 times million times more expensive than getting a cosmetic assessment for like 200 quid.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:57

Absolutely. Yeah. And um, and I know I keep going back with all these compliance things.

Dalia Hawley: 00:38:02

No, it's good.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:02

But um, I guess it's probably also worth having insurance, isn't it I suppose if you sell something?

Dalia Hawley: 00:38:08

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I've got like personal liability, um, also because I do markets as well coming up to Christmas, they need insurance. That, and again, there's some really good sort of craft insurers out there as well that, that a lot of people in the craft industry use. Um, and again, you know, but for the year it's not that much. So it's worth doing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:26

I think, I mean, I think youre so right. For peace of mind, just, you know, on the very, very unlikely event that anything does happen, sort of knowing you've, you are covered and you've got someone to turn to, um, because presumably these insurers, you know, also would give advice on sort of how to, you know, how to deal with it. Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely worth having that because obviously it's a small business. You're not going to have a legal department ory eah. Or anything like that. So yeah, I think you're right. For however much it costs a year, I think it's definitely, definitely, yeah. Definitely worth it. Yeah, definitely.

Dalia Hawley: 00:38:59

Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:01

And so you mentioned, um, you mentioned selling in markets, but is that something you're doing run up to Christmas or is that part of your sort of sales strategy year round?

Dalia Hawley: 00:39:11

Um, it was part of my sales strategy really. Um, I started doing some targeting more sort of local areas because I found that, um, a lot of people around where I am are really supportive and they were, you know, they were coming along to markets I was doing, and they were, they were becoming sort of repeat buyers. Um, and I had a Christmas market locally, last year and I think because it was a regular market, people were coming back all the time and they wanted to support people in their communities. So, and I was like, oh, okay, this is a non hassle stall, uh, so it was great. So I just decided to kind of, um, go with that really. So I've done a couple of popups locally and, um, yeah, and I definitely want to do set of markets this year, like Christmas markets. Uh, I tried doing a really big one, a really big expensive one last year. I didn't make that many sales and then I went to a smaller one expecting I wasn't going to make that many sales, and I sold out in an hour. So yeah, it's been interesting. It's taught, it's taught me now that the smaller and more local markets, um, are the places where my products do well, and, and I have, you know, where these markets are. There are more affluent areas as we say. So I do get people, you know, wanting to buy more, um, and spend more money, which, you know, and plus they've been really supportive of my business as well, which, which is fantastic. And they're really lovely. Yeah, And they're repeat buyers now as well, which is really, really nice. So yeah, very thankful.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:40:36

That is really nice and it's nice that it works and obviously it's not great when something doesn't work, but I think it's good. At least you can say, okay, well I tried that and actually that didn't work for me, so put that aside and and concentrate on what, on what does work, and it's really lovely to have the local support as well. I hear this a lot and I can definitely relate to that. So I love buying from local businesses or people I know. Or a friend of a friend. It's just, yeah, I definitely think there is more of a drive that isn't there to support, to support local. To support the smaller businesses.

Dalia Hawley: 00:41:08

Yes. Yeah. And it's in person selling as well, you know. I went to a Women's Group the other week and people can try the products, you know, which they can't do that much of now online. You know, I, I bought testers along, people were trying on the serum, they were trying on the balms and the oils. They could smell it, they could feel it. They could feel the texture and you know, they were buying it because of that. Because they're like, oh, it feels really niceo n my skin. It smell really nice. Or I'm just going to take it away and make sure I'm not having a reaction. Oh no, actually it's been really nice. I'll come back and buy that. So I think there's a lot to, for, for in selling and actually people being able to touch and feel and, and you know, a product as well. It just, I think we're not used to that as much now, so. No. Yeah. That makes a difference as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:51

I agree. I was talking to somebody about that yesterday that I feel like now that we can go out or get again and know we have been able to for a while. I think there's definitely more of a drive. People want to buy things in person and actually, I mean, there's always been that, it's always been nice to be able to look at things and feel them and everything else, but yeah. Yeah, I think after not being able to do so for so long, um, yeah, it kind of, I think you almost appreciate it a bit more as well. That you actually go yeah, and I think as well for, for product, homemade products, there's something really nice about meeting the person behind the product. Well, if it's homemade or wherever it's a small business. I think just meeting the person behind the business makes a huge difference as well.

Dalia Hawley: 00:42:34

Yes, absolutely. Because you know your product. You can ask that person questions, you can talk to them about the brand, you can talk to them about the product. So yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:45

Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot, a lot to be said for that. Um, yeah, it does make a huge difference.

Dalia Hawley: 00:42:52

Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:54

So I have one final question if that's ok Dalia?

Dalia Hawley: 00:42:57

Yeah, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:58

Um, which is, what is your number one piece of advice for other product creators? What would you want someone to take away from today? And this might be specific to the cosmetics industry or it might not be. Um, your choice.

Dalia Hawley: 00:43:10

Oh God. Just one. Oh my goodness. Um, I would say be prepared for the time it takes. Um, I think most people assume you can make something they can get out in the market straight away. It can take years, it can take months. You know, remember your, your last, um, interview you had and you know the lady there saying how long it took. And you know, you, you will go through so many samples, you'll go through so many things that go wrong. You'll go through a lot of money and a lot of time, and you have to be prepared to just be patient. I'm not the world's most patient person, so I've had to really learn to go, okay, to take a step back and just, you know, understand that this is going to take a long time to do. So you have to be prepared for that. It's not going to go out onto the market like that tomorrow. You're probably going to be there for a year, maybe a couple of years of doing your research and development of that product. So you have to be you know, prepared for that, I think is the most important thing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:06

I think that's so helpful. Thank you. Yeah. Because I think even if you are the most patient person, it can still get really disheartening. You know, you feel like, will I ever get there? And everyone else is doing this quicker. But I mean, that isn't the case because of course, the first time we, unless it's someone we know personally, often the first one product is when it first goes on sale. When it's ready to launch. And that could have been, as you say, that could be a couple of years for when that original idea came about. So thank you for being so honest about that because I think you're right that, um, you know, you don't always understand fully, we don't always fully under appreciate how long these things can take. And it's like a string as well, isn't it? So what takes one person a year might take somebody else two for, Yeah, all kinds of reasons. And also there'll be some who manage to do it quicker, but um, but yeah, I think it takes as long as it takes, doesn't it?

Dalia Hawley: 00:44:59

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You have to be prepared for that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:03

Well thank you so much for that. That's excellent advice and thank you so much for all that you shared because I know I asked you a lot of questions that you weren't prepared for. I didn't realize how interested I was going to get in, um, in the regulations, but um, I just think because you're so open to talking about it I think it's, it's just such, you know, valuable information for people to have if they're considering a cosmetic and anything topical, I guess, um, it's really worth knowing. So thank you so much for sharing.

Dalia Hawley: 00:45:32

No, thank you for having me. It's been really nice and I always like talking about sort of the research and development and the compliance of it all, so yeah, no, thank you for having me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:42

Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogues and lots of free resources on my website vickiweinberg.com. Please do remember to rate this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.