How to protect your intellectual property – Kirsty Brummel – Trademark Tonic

undefined: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:24

Hi. I hope you're having a great day so far. So today on the podcast I'm speaking to Kirsty Brummel. Kirsty helps businesses ranging from startups to larger corporations to effectively protect, enforce, and manage their trademarks and designs. She gives advice and copyright matters and helps businesses realize the potential of their intellectual property. So this is an episode I've been wanting to record for quite some time. I was just looking for the perfect person. And then a along came Kirsty, which was fantastic. So I get lots of questions about patents, trademarks, copyrights, how to keep your intellectual property safe. Um, and Kirsty is a perfect person to answer all of those questions. So we go into detail about all the different kinds of intellectual property, um, what you need to do to register, how much it costs, and what to do if you believe someone is violating. Your copyright and also what to do if you get contacted by someone to say that you are violating theirs. So all in all, I think there is a lot that we can all learn from this episode. I certainly learnt lots of things I didn't know before. Um, and I guess the key thing I want you to take away is that Kirsty makes this kind of complex subject um, a lot less scary. Um, I think her overlying message is, whatever happens, please don't panic. Um, and I think that's a really reassuring message. Hopefully you all feel the same after you've listened to the episode. And if you have any questions at all on anything that Kirsty's covered in this episode, you'll be able to contact her via the details in the show notes. So I'd love now to introduce you to Kirsty. So, hi Kirsty. Thank you so much for being here.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:01:59

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:02

You're so welcome. Can we start by you, please give an introduction to yourself, your business, and what you do.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:02:08

Yeah, sure. So my name's Kirsty Brummel. I'm a chartered UK trademark attorney and I am set up Trademark Tonic, um, in May, 2020. And basically I help businesses and individuals to protect their intellectual property rights. So. Covering trademarks and designs and copyright mainly. Um, and just helping in all aspects, whether that be protection, enforcement, management, um, and anything to do with IP matters.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:39

Brilliant. Thank you so much. So I know this is a huge, huge topic, Kirsty. So let's start, um, by talking about intellectual property and maybe what that means and what are some of the things that we could protect as a small business.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:02:52

Yeah, sure. So in terms of intellectual property, um, it's a, an umbrella term, which basically it's, um, to do with intangible assets and that covers, um, things such as trademarks, designs, copyright, patents, and there's also some other, um, topics as well that it can cover off. But those are the main, um, form and I specialize particularly in trademarks, designs and copyright. Um, so with trademarks, that covers, um, brand names and logos and, um, basically, um, you know, registering a trademark, for example, to obtain protection and be able to, um, help you to defend your brand name against other businesses if, if necessary. And also to build up your own rights in relation to a brand name or logo. Um, designs could include registering a design again, to try and help protect it, um, to be able to prevent other people, you know, from, from copying or, um, having a sort of identical type of design or something very closely similar. Um, and copyright is an automatic right in the uk and that can cover things. Um, it's sort of like a, a, a broad variety of things, such as books and magazines. It could include drawings, um, it could include sculptures. Um, so all sorts of things that fall under copyright and that comes into existence once you record whatever it is. So for example, drawings that you actually record them down and then you would have copyright in relation to that. Um, and then patents as well, which is to do with inventions. And, um, basically there needs to be an inventive step, um, and capable of industrial application. Um, and also it needs to be novel in order to obtain a patent registration, for example, in the UK.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:42

That's brilliant. Thank you. Um, so just tell me about copyrights. You mentioned that you have automatic copyright. What, what does that mean, Kirsty?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:04:52

So, in the UK, um, with certain types of intellectuality, for example, with trademarks and designs and also patterns you can go through, um, registration. So for example, with trademarks, you might want to, um, register your brand name at the Intellectual property office, um, which can be done online, um, in the UK I P O, which is what it's called is based in Newport. They've also got an office in London, but a lot of, um, services are provided online. Um, so there's that registration route, but with copyright, um, you don't have to go through this registration route. In the UK it's just basically automatic that it comes into existence. Once you've recorded the works that you've created, um, you know, for example, down on a piece of paper, maybe you've created something on the computer. Um, and once it's recorded, um, down or recorded in writing, so to speak. Then the offer of that work will have copyright protection basically in, in that work itself.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:51

Oh, okay. I didn't realize that. Do you have to do anything to prove, like when you created it, for example.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:05:59

Yeah, so that's one thing that I always, um, sort of mention, you know, to businesses and individuals when they come and they ask about copyright is to make sure if possible, um, when you are creating any new work. So maybe, you know, if you're doing drawings, or, um, you know, you're, you're writing a book or whatever it is, that basically along the way you are making records of, you know, the dates of creation of certain pieces of work, and also who created it. So if it's yourself, um, you know, sort of keeping a record of that. Um, and then that could all be used if, if necessarily down the line as evidence, you know, if there was any sort of dispute in relation to, for example, who owns copywriting of work. Um. And also, you know, if anyone came along and said, um, copied book material, that you then might want to use your records and evidence in a, um, worst case scenario, last resort court case against another business maybe or an individual.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:58

That makes sense. Thank you. Um, so let's say that someone's looking to get some kind of protection for whether it's their brand name or it's a, a patent. Are there any steps we need to take before going ahead and registering?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:07:14

Yes. So, um, depending on what you're looking to protect, um, for example, with patent, um, there are certain criteria you have to meet. So for, um, say an invention to actually be patentable in the first place, um, it would have to be novel. So it has to be new and not already out there. You know, like in the public domain, it has to have an inventive step. Um, something that's not obvious, that's, that's inventive about, um, you know, what you've, um, created in terms of the invention. And then it has to be capable of industrial application. So before actually then trying to, you know, like file a pattern application. You want to make sure, first of all, that you've met those criteria where possible so that, you know, you don't want sort of waste money, you know, like finding the application and find out it wasn't patentable in the first place. It's good to, to look at that first of all. And also, the other important angle is to do any relevant, um, searching. So freedom to operate, searching, where you're basically seeing whether there's any existing patents, um, inventions out there where you could be infringing those patent rights if you were to, um, basically, you know, like use your invention in commerce or, you know, then filing this patent application whether there might be any issues in conflicting with existing rights. Um, and that's patents and then, um, the same type of things carry across, you know, to, um, for example, trademarks and designs as well, where again, searching is very important. Where possible before, for example, filing a trademark application to make sure that your new brand name or logo. Wouldn't be infringing an existing, um, trademark, right. And registered trademark, right, for example, in the UK. Um, or that there wouldn't be, um, sort of a passing off issue, which basically if you are using a brand name over time in the UK, you've built up some goodwill. Um, you can, um, have established basically, um, Passing off rights, so to speak, and is to make sure you're not conflicting with those rights as well, where people have built up, um, goodwill over time in relation to a brand name. So sort of registered and under registered rights to look at um, so yeah, definitely searching is, is is quite important, I would say. And then on the trademark side as well, um, it's making sure, um, and this is another important point, that your new brand name or logo is actually distinctive enough in the first place to obtain a registration. So what happens when you file, for example, a trademark application at the UK Intellectual Property office, is that it will get examined, um, after about two to four weeks from filing, and the examiner at the office will be looking at, um, a trademark application with the, with the brand name or logo to see is it distinctive enough to actually be registered as a trademark? Would it be seen as a badge of origin by consumers? Um, so they make an assessment and in terms of being distinctive, the, the, the, the best and the strongest trademarks are those, for example, that are invented. Words, or maybe you've got a combination of two unusual terms brought together, whereas weaker trademarks and those which could be hard to protect, would be more on the descriptive side. Um, so it's like, you know, the classic sort of like trying to register apple for apples and, and that kind of thing. Um, so where possible, um, selecting a good and strong brand name or having a, a good logo in the first place could be important for creating the biggest bubble of protection around your um, brand or logo and also hopefully decreasing the chances of issues, you know, like with other, um, businesses as well. Um, because the more distinctive and sort of inventive the name is, the less likely hopefully, that you'd be then conflicting with other trademark rights.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:10

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I think I heard something once before, you'd be able to tell me if this is correct, Kirsty, that you can't register the same name. If there's a company in the same industry, like company in the same industry with the same name that can be a problem. But let's say you were going to open an e-commerce business. You can open a, a sh a shop, but there was a garden, a gardening, a gardening business with a similar name. That would be okay. Is that correct or not correct?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:11:42

So it, it can depend, um, on basically what the sort of rights are that, for example, that business has to do with, um, you know, like e-commerce, let's say. Um, and whether their rights are really limited to that specific area, and they've got, for example, the UK trademark registration where they've just covered certain classes that cover off, you know, they're products and services of interest, um, and not covering, for example, gardening products and services. So there's a, you know, like that distinction in terms of what's, um, there's a classification system basically that, you know, trademarks have, are filed for. And if you are in separate classes, then a lot of the time there can be that distinction and also commercial differences. And these, um, different, um, you know, if you're then filing an application that can coexist basically alongside this other registration, which is in a, you know, a different class. And also if the owners, you know, like got no issues with this new application coming through with the same name. Now, sometimes there could be businesses that have, um, an established reputation. I mean, particularly, you know, like big business multinationals where they might have covered so many classes in their trademark application, but because they have a reputation and because they're so well known, then basically it broadens out, you know, the, the extent of their trademark rights and then they can basically oppose, for example, a new application on the basis of their reputation, even, you know, extending to dissimilar, um, classes of goods and services. So in that situation, there could still potentially be an issue, but a lot of the time, you know, you can find the same brand name where there's different classes. Um, I would still say that, you know, I'd be quite cautious about, you know, when it is the same brand name, making sure there'd be no conflict in seeing, you know, what the sort of commercial interests are of the owner. Um, sometimes you can sort of try it out and test the water and, and see how it goes. Um, but the other thing to mention as well is even if you obtain a trademark registration, there is, um, still a sort of vulnerability in terms of it's still possible to cancel a registration. So even when you've got a registration, none of a business could come along and try and cancel that on the basis of, for example, if they've got earlier trademark rights. Um, I mean, hopefully that wouldn't happen, but it's just to be aware that even when you have the registration now doesn't mean it's a hundred percent safe, so to speak.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:13

That's really useful. Thank you. So when we're registering trademarks, do we have to think about registering them for all the different classes or just stick to the classes that are relevant?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:14:24

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. Um, and it can depend on certain factors. Um, so for example, if you've got a business and you are just in a specific area, um, let's say, you know, maybe like beauty products or something like that, then you might want to and start off, and that falls, um, a lot of time under class free. Um, but maybe you are thinking in a few years time already, you know, you might be expanding your product range, maybe like going into, um, sort of, um, um, medicated kind of products or something like that, which would fall under class five. So you might be thinking, oh, well I'm planning on doing this, so you might want to cover, you know, more than you'd be using, um, sort of currently, but you know, sort of trying to cover off what you are planning to use down the line, um, intended use, so to speak. Um, but it can come down to budget as well sometimes as to, you know, how many classes you cover will increase the cost, you know, like in terms of, for example, the official fees at the UK and such property office. So then, um, sometimes it come, might come down to your core classes of interest at the beginning, and then maybe later down the line when you've got more budget to be thinking about filing, maybe like another trademark application, you might want to then cover off different classes. Um, but again, um, the other thing, the sort of thing, think about, there's all the sort of different things to think of all the time is that, um, you know, is is it good to cover up what you can at the beginning just to avoid, um, you know, like later on down the line, could someone else come along and then maybe, um, cause a conflict, you know, with like new classes that you might want to then cover. Um, so certainly it's something to be sort of carefully thinking about at the beginning. Um, but a lot of the time I find that, um, when businesses come to me, you know, it's more about the sort of, um, especially when they're starting up just about the core classes at the beginning and then maybe sort of thinking further down the line about covering off of the classes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:24

That makes sense. Thank you. Um, you mentioned costs a moment ago Kirsty. This is probably a good time to talk about costs and I really appreciate you will not be able to give us exact costs because there'll be so many different scenarios for every different, you know, every different business. Everyone listening will have their own unique situation, but can you perhaps give us some ballpark figures for what we are looking at if we want to protect our intellectual property, please.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:16:49

Yes, of course. So with, um, trademarks as an example, um, there's a set of official fees and then if you seek professional help, there'll be a professional fee on top of that. So we're really talking about, um, in the hundreds in terms of, for example, trademarks and designs with trademarks. Specifically as an example, the official fee at the UK IPO um, would be 170 pounds when you file online for one class of goods or services. And then for each extra class of good source services that you add, the official fee would be 50 pounds for each extra class that you had done. And then on top of that, there'd be a professional fee and that basically can range, you know, like in the low hundreds to the, to the mid hundreds depending on the firm that you, you go to. Um, and we've designed, it's in the sort of low hundreds as well. And then in terms of patents, that's more expensive. And usually you are looking at, in, in the thousands in terms of, um, the sort of like the searching and the filing process. Um, and also the, the patterned timeline is a lot longer as well, you know, like compared to trademarks and designs. Thank you so much for explaining that. Um, how about if you're on a bit of a budget, are there ways to protect your intellectual property? Outspending lots of money, at least at the outset? Yes. So I would say that, um, you know, you, you, if you're on a limited budget, you could, for example, look to, um, try and file a trademark application just for your main brand name or maybe a combined mark. So you're going for your um, brand name and maybe like a sort of logo, um, that you'd be using them both in com, um, commerce, but trying to cover off under, under one mark, you know, right, rather than filing separate applications for each element. Um, now that could be good from a, a budget point of view, because you might be filing one application instead of two at the same time. Um, when you're trying to get the broadest protection possible, um, it's advisable, you know, to, to try and, um, file these different elements. So for example, the plain words of your, um, main brand name, you might want to file a separate application for, um, a logo image, um, to basically get the broadest level of protection surrounding that, um, element. Um, but at the same time, you know, when you're weighing it up against budget, then you might want to go for a combined mark or just filing maybe just for the brand name, if that's the main thing we'll use. And also if you're planning on changing your logo image or you might be updating it along the way, then you probably wouldn't want to file for that until you've definitely got that sort of finalized. Then also that you would be using it for the foreseeable future so that you don't have to then keep sort of, you know, like refiling down the line for the logo.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:36

That's really helpful. Thank you. So once you have some protection in place, is that enough? Can we just sit back and relax now? Or do we need to continually monitor? Um, yeah. What, what do we ne do next kirsty?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:19:50

Mm-hmm. So in terms of, um, having a registration, I mean, that's great. You know, if you've managed to obtain a trademark registration, then that gives you, um, the right to be able to, for example, prevent another business or individual from using an identical or a confusingly similar brand name or logo where it covers off identical clause, similar goods and services. So that's what the registration gives you the right to do. So you could, for example, um, send a cease and desist letter to prevent someone using, um, say the same brand name in commerce, where they're covering overlapping goods and services. Or it could be that you could file an opposition against a new application because you've seen, you know, that maybe again, the identical brand name's coming through and it covers, um, similar maybe goods to what you are covering. Um, so it's, it's good in terms of, um, giving you those rights now. How you can see whether, you know, like there's a new application with a, a conflicting brand name. Um, the UK IPO is good in that it does, um, basically an examination phase do, um, the examiner does their own search and they look for, um, identical, similar existing marks. And what they do is they'll notify those existing owners, you know, of this new application unless the applicant can successfully argue then that the marks are, are basically dissimilar, all the goods and services don't um, overlap in terms of being identical, similar. So you could be notified by the UK IPO you know, of a new application coming through, but that's no guarantee. Now, like in terms of the search that they do, um, it's not sort of a hundred percent, um, for proof, so to speak. Um, so you can also as a separate, um, action, set up, um, a monitoring or watching service, and that can be done, you know, like through professional help. So, for example, I help businesses with, um, reporting out, you know, like a watching service every month as to what's coming through the system, maybe application wise. Or you could be monitoring online in terms of what's actually being used, um, how the brand name that you've got, you know, is it being used out there, um, by other parties when they, when they shouldn't be using it? Is anyone else using the same name? Um, is there any sort of conflict in terms of the way that your brand name might be being used by another business? Um, so there's certainly ways, you know, you could monitor and watch, um, or you could do your own manual checking as well. You know, depending on maybe looking at the UK register and putting in, for example, your brand name and seeing what comes out. But, um, I mean I definitely, um, sort of recommend getting professional advice where possible. Um, just so you are covering off, you know, all the sort of relevant angles.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:41

That's really good advice. Thank you. Because I think a lot of us would be really tempted to say, well, I've registered and I'm, I'm protected. And then leave it at that. Um, and then perhaps you only find out something goes wrong when something really goes wrong. And, and let's talk a little bit about that actually Kirsty, because something I've seen, um, I've seen a few instances of this on social media. I actually had a lady on, I, come on my podcast, who this has happened to. Um, and the thing I wanted to talk about is when someone sort of copies, whether it's your products, your branding, um, so I've seen a few stories you probably have about bigger brands, maybe copying something that's the work of an individual or a small brand. What do you do when that happens to you? What steps would you advice someone takes?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:23:25

Yeah, so I mean, it can depend as to what is actually being done. Um, so for example, um, on the trademark side, you know, if you can see that maybe someone's copied your logo, um, and you've got that registered, um, then there would be the option to, um, basically contact, um, that business or individual to let them know about your registered trademark rights and that you've seen, you know, that they're basically using this logo in commerce and it's conflicting with your registered right. Um, and that you're giving them the opportunity to basically either stop using, um, or for example, they file an application to then withdraw that application. Otherwise you're going take further action. So it's whether you want to contact them yourself or again, I always recommend where possible to seek professional advice, and that's on the basis that it's always good to know and do a bit of research first as to what are the extent of the rights of the other business or individual as in, you know, sort of what are they doing and um, for example, maybe if it was a similar logo, it's checking that they haven't been using that for a long time. You know, like just independently and maybe their rights could actually be earlier than your own, so that you wouldn't want to contact basically another business only to find out actually they've got earlier registered or, um, so-called unregistered rights. Um, then you, for example, maybe like a brand name or a logo and that they could then counter that. So it's doing the research in the first place too. It's like, right, what, what are the rights that each, um, business has and when do they date back to? If you can find out that information first and then that sort of helps establish, you know, is this the right thing to do to contact them? Um. And there might be different ways to contact them. So, um, there's sort of, you know, you could do it through, um, an IP firm or through a, a firm like trademark where they're writing on behalf, on your behalf and, um, setting out your registered rights. Or it could be a business to business contact, um, and just, um, sort of taking a bit of a softer approach, so to speak. And, um, trying to sort of give them the chance, you know, to, to stop doing what the, what they're doing before then taking any further action. And I think it depends on who the businesses are, um, you know, like what size they are, um, what they're doing. And as to, you know, like deciding which route might be best to go down.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:53

That makes sense. Thank you. And what about for copyright issues? Would that be the same kind of process?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:26:00

So for copyright, um, again, um, definitely doing that sort of research piece. It's, you know, what is being copied, if anything. Um, then maybe, you know, for example, you've got a website and um, you've got certain materials like written, um, texts, and there's big chunks, you know, that have been copied, say by, I mean, hopefully not, you know, like by another business you can suddenly see. It's like, hang on a minute, that, that's all the text from my website. Um, then again, you know, I'll be checking, it's like, when was this other business set up? Um, can you see, um, you know, like when the domain name was registered, what, when this material might have been sort of taken over. Um, and then again, it's, it's establishing that in the first place to make sure, you know, you are right in basically contacting them and, you know, this is your material. And, um, you know, that you created something maybe like five years ago and, um, you've obviously, um, sort of in the right to be able to then ask them to not be copying and what has been created. Um, and again, you could either do that, um, you know, like through a professional firm. Or you could do it business to business again. Um, and sometimes, um, I think it's good to know who, you know, you are getting in touch with and what that business is like and, um, what the sort of outcome of that might be. Because, you know, as you've seen from some of the bigger cases, you know, like the m and s and, and, and even this Percy Pigs matter that's come up this week with this ice cream that, um, you know, sometimes you have to think as well about, um, sort of publicity and for example, if you send a cease and desist letter, is that going to end up in the public domain? Could there be some sort of negative publicity now around, depending on how you contact a, another business? But at the same time, it's like that absolute importance of you've, um, basically created something which has copyright. You are then, um, within your right to protect that work. And obviously you don't want that being sort of copied and disseminated, you know, like throughout the internet without your, um, permission. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it can be a sort of tricky one, you know, like to work out the best strategy and that's why again, you know, going sort of via a, a professional firm can be a good option where budget's available, just because then they can suggest, you know, like the different options and what might be the best route.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:31

That makes sense. Thank you. Yeah, I feel, I feel like getting professional advice is key here actually, because it seems really tricky to navigate. Um, and, and you might possibly say the same to my next question, which is, what do you do if the opposite happens and somebody contacts you and says, you've infringed on my copyright or my trademark? Or let, let's assume it's copyright because let's, let's say that we've all done our checks before we've registered the trademark, and that's all fine. If a company comes to you and says, actually, you've infringed upon our copyright. Um, we sell a t-shirt that looks like this, and now you are selling a t-shirt that looks like this, what do you do if that happens?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:29:08

Um, yeah, so if it was like the, the sort of design drawing, you know, like on, on a t-shirt or, um, maybe like copied a logo that, you know, had copyright protection in it then I would definitely in that way round, um, I think where possible, and again, where budget allows seeking some professional advice first off, would be important because it would be to establish are you actually, um, infringing that copyright? Um, you know, is there an issue at all here? Or if not, can you then basically push back and say, you know, you've taken legal advice and actually this isn't copyright infringement and you know, you're not going to be stopping doing what you are doing. Um, on the other hand, you know, if there is a conflict and the advice is, you know, this, this could potentially be an issue in terms of infringement, um, then you might want to think about, um, whether there's any amendments, for example, you could make in terms of like a design drawing or a logo or maybe coming up with something new, um, um, um. Worst case scenario, you know, like having to withdraw maybe certain products. Um, but again, I think where you can, it's good to get that advice because if you sort of rush in and reply and, um, you know, without maybe like knowing the facts, then it could potentially be detrimental as to, you know, the sort of escalation or, or the outcome. Um, so yeah, again, we're possible advice.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:41

And do we need to really panic if this happens? Are we going to get massive fines or, or anything like that?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:30:48

Usually I would say, um, try not to panic, you know, if you received a cease and desist letter, um, normally it's a, a pretty sort of standard things, you know, that, that IP lawyers might do, you know, in terms of, um, on, on behalf of their client. Um, as an initial action, sending the cease and desist letter out, um, normally there's a period of time given to maybe like withdraw, um, an application if that's what you filed or, you know, to stop using commerce as a worst case scenario, um, within, within a certain period of time, but also within that period of time that you could seek advice and then sort of get a reply sent. Um, you know, maybe like countering what they've said. Um, usually, um, most businesses are not looking for a big fight or, you know, like, as a, a court action would be an absolute last resort, um, and worst case scenario normally. Most disputes don't actually come, you know, like to a court act. And normally, hopefully there'd be a way to try and resolve the matter. Um, for example, um, if there's any sort of commercial differences between parties, sometimes things can be resolved on the basis of those commercial differences, or there might be a compromise position where you might agree, for example on the trademark side, maybe to use a, a logo or brand name in a specific form. Um, not use, um, you know, like sort of form or stylization that the other business has. Um, and different things that could be agreed upon in what you'd call a coexistence agreement so that parties, you know, like in coexist side by side, but maybe there's some restrictions on what you are doing depending on who's got the stronger and earlier rights, so to speak. Um, so there's definitely ways, you know, to um, hopefully maybe have a friendly settlement if there's any room for that or, you know, to withdraw, um, an application or stop using in commerce if you have to. Um, and, um, it depends, you know, like in terms of who the other business is as to whether they um, now for example, they might ask sometimes for their legal fees to be covered and, um, um, any sort of items that have already been sold to be withdrawn and, um, you know, they might sort of ask for certain conditions surrounding, um, resolving like a cease and desist. Um, but hopefully, you know, these sort of things are, um, the sort of the worst case scenario and in definitely the court case would be the absolute worst case scenario. Okay. Yeah. So in most cases, hopefully it'll all work out one way or another.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:25

Thank you. Well, the main message I'm getting is don't panic, so that's good. So nobody panic. Okay, thank you Kirsty. I've just got a few more questions before we finish up. Um, my next one didn't, I wasn't really sure where to fit this in. I'm going to ask you now at the end if that's ok. So often, um, we all see little circles, you know, in text and there's either a TM in a circle or an R in a circle. Could you please explain, um, what these actually mean? I'm guessing TM is trademark, but, um, I'll let you tell me, I don't know what R stands for. Would you mind letting us know what these are, um, and when they can be used, please?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:33:59

Yes, of course. And this is like a really good thing to cover, um, because I think a lot of businesses and, um, the people out there, you know, like are still wondering what are these symbols mean. So in terms of the R in a circle, the R means registered, and you can use the R in a circle when, for example, you have a trademark registration in place. So in the UK, once you have that registration, you could be using the R in a circle next to your brand name or logo, depending on what you've had registered. Um, and you basically can't use the R in a circle if you don't, don't have that registration, um, in place yet. Um, so it's actually would be, um, you know, like a legal requirement to only use it, you know, once you've had the registration. Whereas the TM, which means trademark symbol. That can be used at any time, um, next to your brand name or logo. So even if you haven't filed a trademark application, you could still, for example, be using the TM in a circle, or if you've got an application in place, you could use it. Or even if you've got a registration, you might opt to use the TM in a circle rather than the R in a circle. And that might be, um, for example, in cases where your, um, maybe like, um, selling products in different markets, maybe let's say like the UK and then across the EU, and you don't have trademark registrations in place in certain countries. So when you have your packaging, it might be easier just to use the TM in a circle across those markets because um, then that doesn't, um, have any issues, you know, like in terms of using the R in a circle where you don't have registrations yet. The other thing I would say is, um, the rules can vary slightly depending on the countries of interest. So it's always good to check, you know, like locally outside of the UK as to what those, um, rules might be. Um, but in the UK anyway, it's um, more easygoing in terms of the T in the circle and then obviously only using the Rs in circles once you have a registration.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:06

That makes sense. Thank you. And I guess if you're not sure, again, this is another area you can get some professional advice on if you're not sure which you should be using where. Oh, thank you so much Kirsty. So I've got one final question to end on, if that's okay. Which is, what is your number one piece of advice when it comes to protecting your intellectual property? So what's the one thing you want people to, um, take away from this?

Kirsty Brummel: 00:36:32

Um, yeah, I would just say, um, well, just a couple of things.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:37

That's fine.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:36:38

If that's okay. But one of them would be, um, to do your research at the beginning as to, you know, depending on what the IP is, so if it's, um, a trademark that you want to try and register. Is your brand name or logo, um, distinctive enough to register in the first place? Trying not to opt for descriptive terms where possible. So coming up, you know, with an invented brand name if possible. Um, something unusual that would stand out and be unique so that you have that biggest bubble of protection possible, basically surrounding your trademark. Um, and also, um, making sure where, where budget allows to do that, searching before you file an application or before you start using in commerce to try and make sure you're not infringing anybody else's registered rights or that there could be any, um, passing off issues in terms of use of a brand name over time where goodwill's been built up, for example, in the UK. Um, and then the same, you know, with patents as well is just making sure, you know, um, an invention for example is patented people in the first place before you would then part a paten application doing your freedom to operate search before filing as well where budget allows. Um, and then the same on the design side as well, just making sure that it, um, fits the criteria in terms of being new and having individual character and doing any searching where you can. Um, so it basically puts you in a good position, you know, before you start doing any filings and, um, to, to sort of help you with the, um, obtaining rights, but also not wasting money, you know, on finding applications where you might not be able to obtain the registration.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:12

That's really helpful. Thank you so much, and thank you for everything that you've shared with us. It's been really useful.

Kirsty Brummel: 00:38:17

Thank you. It's been brilliant talking to you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:22

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vicki weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.