How to create and sell a unique food product – with Dan Shearman – The Wilder Kitchen

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Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:24

Hi. So in today's episode, I'm speaking to Dan from the Wilder Kitchen. So the Wilder Kitchen creates hot honey, which is something that I hadn't heard about until I started working with Dan and his business partner, Andy. Dan explains how this is a growing category. He talks about how he got the inspiration for this product and how his experience as a chef helped him to develop it. He talks about how he scaled the business. About getting stocked in all kinds of retailers in the UK and well beyond. And I think overall it's a really interesting, fascinating conversation. We talk a lot about the food business in particular, but I think there's also a lot to be gained even if you're not interested in selling a food product. So I would love now to introduce you to Dan. So, hi Dan. Thank you so much for being here.

Dan Shearman: 00:01:10

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:11

So, can we start with you, please give an introduction to yourself, your business, and what you sell.

Dan Shearman: 00:01:16

Yeah, of course. So, uh, I am a street food chef. My name's Dan Shearman, the creator and co-founder of the Wilder Kitchen. We produce Wilder Bee Hot Honey, which is the UK's original uh, chili infused hot honey that we now sell into retailers, restaurants across the, across the UK. And we have a, a range of hot honeys that we have developed now and, uh, is out there in the, in the wide world.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:45

Well, thank you. As you can imagine, I have lighter questions for you, but let's start right at the beginning. Um, so you were a street chef oh originally, is that right?

Dan Shearman: 00:01:53

Yeah, so it was back in 2014, I started my food truck journey. Um, and, and that's kind of when I developed this product for the menu. So I went to, um, New York just for a, a visit for a weekend and discovered the joys of hot honey in a, um, in a New York sort of pizza joint. And I wanted something really similar for the menu. So I came back and tried to find it, couldn't find it anywhere. So I developed my own. What I did develop was a slightly different version because a lot of the US versions are sort of using chili mash, which include vinegars and salts, and they weren't a hundred percent pure but delicious. But I wanted something more natural and and pure. So I developed that for the menu. And it was literally just using it on, you know, on on sort of the first thing I think it went on was a goat's cheese salad, and then we did sort of a fried chicken. And it just became really popular with regulars and they were asking me to, you know, to sell it to them, but I didn't, I I just put it in sort of small, small jars and sold it kind of under the counter unofficially, if you like. Um, and, and it sort of rolled from there and it, it, it got so popular that we, we thought, you know what? Let's, I'll just start bottling it. And that's where it was kind of born into small, independent retailers and I used to sell it on online, direct to consumer. And then we had a bit of a break during the pandemic. Because a lot of the honey that I used to source was from, you know, small beekeepers, uh, and apiaries. I mean, the first honey I ever sourced was a 17 year old lad on a rooftop in, in Peckham. And then he, uh, he obviously found girls and decided that beekeeping wasn't for him anymore and we lost him. But, you know, during the pandemic, a a lot of the other sort of beekeepers, you know, quite elderly and they didn't really want to come out and, you know, so we lost our, our, our suppliers, you know, our, our honey supply completely. So it was only after this sort of pandemic that my business partner Andy, came on board and we started to do things properly. You know, we really secured, um, you know, a a, a decent sort of work, a big honey supplier. And outsourced to a production kitchen, sort of doing things properly and at scale, and we restarted again in 2021. So, so now we're a proper, a proper business, not just sort of selling at the back of my, my food truck, um, and doing it at quite, quite a grand scale.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:24

Well, thank you for all of that. And I guess, yeah, there's, there's a lot, isn't there? And it seems like there's a big shift between selling something in jars from your truck to actually having a product that you can sell on your website and selling to trade. What are some of the things, what are some of those differences? What sort of things do you have to consider? Because I'm assuming when you're doing it, you know, you're just selling to the customers who are coming to see you at the van, it's a very different thing in terms of regulations and food safety. I mean, I'm sure food safety was at the front of your mind all the time, but you know what I mean. Suddenly things become a lot more regulated, don't they? When you are a business as opposed to somebody who's doing this on the side.

Dan Shearman: 00:04:58

Yeah, they do. I mean, to be com quite honest, to begin with, when I was sort of doing it on the truck, it was, you know, the, the sort of hurdles that we, we come up against now, and all of the, you know, the, the scale up requirements probably wouldn't being met. It was real sort of Del Boy, Del boy stuff, you know, but you know, when you go from pitching table, or in my case, you know, food truck table to, you know, scaling up to thousands of units. You've got to consider things like your nutritionals, your allergens, you know, your shelf life testing. And then there's extended shelf life testing looking at things like packaging and the fulfillment you know, so you, if you are going to get into to retailers and you're going to do it properly, you know, they, they need all of that. You know, you look at the back of a food product, you see all the nutritionals and allergens and it has to be on there. And then, you know, if you're going to go into sort of the larger retailers, which we are now, is, you know, you need accreditations, like things like BRC or, or SALSA. So it's not just a case of, you know, getting your food hygiene rating and, and getting a product out there, which, well, you know, you can do, but if you wanted to stay relatively small and just sort of supply, you know, farm shops and, and delis. So yeah, there's, there's a lot to think about. And the m p d process, like I say, from, from an idea of a product through to getting that to shelf, there's a lot of things you've got to, you've got to consider and a lot of sort of red, red tape if you like.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:27

Thank you. It does sound like an, a huge job and a, and a massive step actually for you though, for your business. That must have been a huge leap and a, with a, with a lot to do to get there.

Dan Shearman: 00:06:37

It was. Yeah. And we're doing it, doing it properly now. That's, that's, that's the thing, I mean, sort of bringing Andy in was the, was the sort of turning point, um, you know, because I had no idea how to get this, this product to market at at any scale. And when I was sort of doing it myself, you know, we, we started to get some really big orders and it was, you know, I was, I couldn't do all that on the food truck, obviously. And it, and I, I was borrowing sort of friends commercial kitchens, and it was just me sort of, you know, plowing away, trying to make 8,000 bottles of this stuff to get out to, you know, honest burgers, whoever we were working with at the time. Um, and it was, and it was tough. So, you know, so outsourcing to a proper, you know, production kitchen, which Andy found for us, um, is, has just been a complete business business changer.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:26

I can imagine because that's, that's a lot on you if you are ma, if you are hand making.

Dan Shearman: 00:07:31

Yeah. Got it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:32

All this hot honey. Um, I'm quite interested, if you don't mind, and we don't, you don't have to go into masses of detail, but sequentially, so how does that work? Was the production kitchen the first step in the process of actually developing this into a product or are there things even before that? And as I say, you don't have to go into masses of detail. Yeah. I just think it's super interesting for anyone in a po similar position to how you were in 2014, who's thinking, yeah, I'd really like to scale up now. Um, what, what was the process like?

Dan Shearman: 00:07:58

It's, it's finding the right production partner. I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of kitchens out there that will, will produce your, your product for you. Um, but obviously you don't want to compromise on, on things like your, your, you know, ingredients and the quality of the product. And there are, you know, the bigger players out there that will, you know, try and push you towards using cheaper ingredients perhaps, which we've never wanted to do. It's all about the, you know, coming from a food background, it's all about the quality of the product. Um, and the quality of the ingredients. So, you know, going from kitchen table, and when I say kitchen table, I mean, you know, a either a, a a commercial sort of kitchen, your own sort of commercial kitchen or, you know, you could be your own kitchen that you've had sort of, you know, signed off by your local council and your, and, and food safe, and you can start producing things. But if you want to, to scale up, it's finding the right producer that can do that, keeping your quality and they come with the right accreditations to get you into retail. And ideally the bigger retail, I mean, they don't have to have b r c accreditation or sales or accreditation, but like I say, if you want supermarkets, you will need at least one of those, um, to sort of check, check the boxes. And for us it was, it was a little bit trickier than, than most because working with honey is obviously a sticky job. So, you know, there was, um, there was quite a lot of nos when we were knocking on doors, you know, even though the product was, was already gaining some popularity and, and they knew that it would be at, at a, at a big scale. Um, it, there was a lot of like, look, you know, the clean down is crazy. It's, you know, they've, they don't want to sort of clog up their machines with, with honey when they've got to then clean down and work on the next product for the next customer. So we found a really amazing producer that, that worked with us. They're, they're a small producer team of two. Um, and, and we communicate every day. They make, you know, their, our, our, our recipe to the tea. Um, we go into the kitchen and make sure things are, are sort of running the way where they need to be and, you know, any sort of tweaks to the recipe or, so they're brilliant and that this, that's the way to sort of work. First of all, don't go straight for the big guys because you know, you want to get your products right at scale. Um, and, and I, you know, we've, we, you know, the, the advice we've always had is, you know, when you're scaling, is obviously you need to get it right kitchen, kitchen table. And then once you scale up to, uh, double that or triple that, the recipe will change. You then you need to scale up again another three times, and then it will change again. So you need to sort of do it slowly, but, but just remember that when you get to that larger scale of any recipe, it's going to be very different from, from what you've made in your, your home kitchen.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:46

That's really interesting. I'd never considered that. I, I had assumed that you were just putting more of everything in to scale it up, so that's really interesting.

Dan Shearman: 00:10:54

Yeah, I think so. You would think so in the, even, even working as a chef previously. I mean, I'd never scaled up anything to that level. So, you know, you, you create a recipe and generally you recreate that for 50, 60 covers or whatever you're doing in a restaurant, or a hundred, 200 covers on a street food truck, and they're all the same, you know? But then you start doing that in a. You go from a saucepan on in your kitchen to, you know, a huge drum or kettle in a, in a commercial kitchen, and suddenly the recipe's completely changed. So you might need to use more chilies or, you know, the heat might change or whatever it might be. But there's, there's so many elements that suddenly your recipe's completely different. So you need to just, it takes a while to get something from that kitchen to to, to shelf at that scale.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:39

That's really interesting. And is that something the production kitchen worked with you on?

Dan Shearman: 00:11:43

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So ev every new products that we get out there, we, we go through, um, a really stringent M P D process, which is, you know, going into the kitchen, scaling up a number of times, and then tweaking, tweaking again, making sure that we're a hundred percent happy with it. And then everything goes off for, for the nutritionals and shelf life testing, which takes a few weeks to come back. And then we can start on the packaging and the branding. I mean, the branding goes on in the background, but the packaging and the nutritionals. Um, so, you know, I guess getting something from, from concept to shelf is a good few months. Um, and we're developing a product at the moment, which isn't a hot honey. Funnily enough. I can't say what it is at the moment, but it's, it's taking a long time, but we are just going to make sure we get it, we get it right. So it could be, you know, end of this year before, you know, before we even get it out to shelf or, or we're happy with it. But, um, that's just the way of, the way of the game.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:44

And so with the nutritional, so that's something you send off and that's done external. So that's, I mean, I, I imagine of course you're going to be something you pay for, but it's not something you have to sort of work for yourself. Because that just seems to me like an absolute minefield.

Dan Shearman: 00:12:57

Yeah, exactly. No, it's just something we send off. So it's gets sent off to a lab. And then it, it comes back with, with what's contained in the, in the product. And we put down as nutritionals, including the allergens. Um, they do a, a first shelf life test, and then there's the extended shelf life testing. So at the moment, you know, we put 12 months on our, our products, but you know, it's a, it's a honey. They've, you know, they've, they've, they've dug up Egyptian, you know, pharaohs covered in the stuff, and it's, it's still edible, but, so, you know, honey lasts a long time, but, yeah, so we put a year on to start with, and then the extended shelf life testing will, will come back. I mean, we've already been going, I guess officially for the last sort of 12 months, 18 months. Um, so, you know, our extended shelf life is still happening. So that's how long that takes. And then, you know, that will come back, you know, within the next sort of six months or so. And we can hopefully say, right, we can put three years on the product. Um, you know, as soon as it's an infused honey, it changes the sort of rules change a little bit.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:56

That's really interesting. So let's talk a little bit about stockists. Because I think, did you mention before, I'm sure that I picked up on you saying that you were getting some big stockist before you had the production kitchen.

Dan Shearman: 00:14:08

Yeah, so there was, there was some, actually we had some really good customers before. We sort of had the production kitchen before we rebranded, before Andy came on board. So, you know, we were, this was mainly sort of contacts and friends of mine. And friends of friends. So we had a lot of restaurant customers. Sorry, if you can hear some digging outside, by the way. There's.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:29

No, don't worry about that at all. And um, thank you explaining this as well. Because I was wondering where you, that was my question. How did you manage to do that, um, so early on, but I guess being a chef you had the right contacts.

Dan Shearman: 00:14:39

Yeah, exactly. It was, it was, yeah, it was, it was great. So we got into Honest Burgers and we did a special with Pizza Pilgrims and, and then we started to get into small independent retailers. So that kind of just started before the pandemic, sort of getting into the smaller retailers. The, the largest portion of sales is probably D 2 C through the website. Um, but again, that was, you know, that was a, a, a small, um, it was a, it was a blip really. It was a, it was a sort, not a blip, sort of a drop in the ocean, um, compared to what we're selling now. Um. But that was, you know, it was great. It was, it was a, it was more of a sort of a side hobby back then, I guess. And in terms of stockists now it's, it's changed considerably. I think. You know, we rebranded, we were, uh, initially an Urban Chili, honey is what we called ourselves. Um, you know, the inspiration was from a hot honey over in, in New York. But my thought process was people won't know what a hot honey is or what it means, you know? Even now, you know, we're doing tastings in, in Whole Foods and people are coming up, so was it, is it warm? Is it what, you know, they're like feeling the bottle or to see. No, no. It's spicy. It's spicy. Um. So, you know, so people didn't really get it. And then eventually the trend became a thing. And I think that was also during the pandemic, there was a few sort of competitors that had popped up, um, and they were calling themselves a hot honey, and people understood it. So we thought, right, okay, we can, we can now sort of brand to a, to the, you know, to, to a hot honey, not just the chili honey. Um. And the, and the sort of, I guess the trend for Hot Honey has really started to grow now in, in the UK and we've been really lucky and, and approached by, you know, a lot of the retailers that we're, we're now in, um, including Whole Foods who came to us because they, they heard of us and they, you know, they were plugged into the trend. Um, and we've got a number of large national retailers, um, you know, multiple supermarkets at the moment that we're talking to. Again, you know, we've, we've reached out to a couple, but the majority have come to us, which is, I mean, I, I guess, unheard of when it comes to sort of food and drink. Um. Product. So we're, we're really lucky. And all the independent retailers, we do some outreach ourselves obviously. Um, but again, we're getting emails on, on a daily basis saying, can we stock your product? And it's saying, well, course you bloody can. Yeah. Great. Um, so yeah, it's, I mean, but it, to start with, it was hard graft and it was picking up the phone, sending emails that it wouldn't get, sort of replied to. But now, like I say, another sort of trend is really growing and people are sort of cottoning on. It's um, it's, yeah, it's, it's coming to us and we're, we're really lucky, really fortunate.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:21

That's fantastic because I imagine there are food buyers out there who are keeping an eye on trends on what consumers are buying, and then they're going out and looking for products that meet that.

Dan Shearman: 00:17:31

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:31

I assume that's what's happening.

Dan Shearman: 00:17:33

Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, we we're, there's a few of the sort of larger multiples that we've, we've approached and they're, they're already plugged into it. You know, they've, they've either got someone that they're talking to, um, you know, and the hot honey brand, or they're, they're keeping an eye, they've already got something on the shelves. Um, but there's a number that that you know, again, haven't got, haven't got a sort of supply. So we're, we're hopefully going to be in there this, this year. So this, yeah, there's big things happening. I mean, one thing I guess you, we've got to be mindful of is a lot of the, the, the largest or multiple retailers, um, you can supply in directly. Um, you know, they might have one main warehouse and then they will, they will put that out to all their, all of their stores. But there's some that will use, um, distributors. Um, and I guess you've got to be mindful that the retailer wants 30, 40% margin. Um, and then distributor wants their slice of the pie as well. So suddenly our, you know, the, the, the margin that we are making starts to dwindle. So it, going direct is, is always better. So, you know, any, any advice I give on finding suppliers would be, try and go direct first before you go through a distributor. I mean, distributors are great. They'll get you out there. Um, But often you'll just sort of sit with a distributor. They won't necessarily sell you. You've got to do that yourself. So if you go direct, brilliant, the work will pay off and you'll, and you'll make more money. Um, but obviously, yeah, that you've got to think about those sort of margins and that's got to be factored into the, the cost of your overall product as well. You know, you go in thinking, great, I'm going to make one pound 50 a bottle, or whatever it might be. Um, and then suddenly you, you, you're not making anything because you're just, you're going through that distributor. Then the retailer wants, big old percentage as well, and suddenly there's no point in having a, having a product in the first place.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:24

That's really interesting. Thank you. And I just also wanted to come back, if you don't mind, something you mentioned a moment ago that you're speaking to some of the big retailers and maybe they've already got a hot honey supplier. Is that the case with, with retailing, this kind of product. Because I'm thinking that when I go, if I go into Tesco, for example, I'm not sure I can say a name, but you know, I go into Tesco and I can see however many brands of regular honey on the shelf. Maybe 10 or eight or whatever, depending on the store. Um, is that how it works with food products? They only stock a certain number of brands for each category, do you know?

Dan Shearman: 00:19:57

No, not necessarily. It depends how big the, the category is. So, you know, at the moment, hot honey is a growing trend and a growing category, but it's not huge. So, you know, what they're looking to do is service their customers on that, that category on a small scale. If it grows and it's exponential and it's, it's, you know, there's a, a huge market for hot honey. You know, they'll, they'll get multiple brands in. It's like, you know, you'll see five or six different ketchup in a supermarket, right? So, because ev everyone knows what ketchup is and they will. Yes. Those items that people will buy and rebuy. Um, so generally at the moment for sort of small trends that sort of cottoning onto, they'll, they'll test the market with one. Um, I mean, there's only, there's only a, uh, from, from, memory I think there's sort maybe two supermarkets that are actually doing a hot honey or, or providing a hot honey. So the others we are talking to at the moment. Um, so yeah, it's, it's still, you know, it's, it's a rising trend, but it's still a small category. So you'll probably see one hot honey in, in every supermarket relatively soon. Um, but then, you know, as, as the, as the sort of trend continues to grow, then, then hopefully that that category will get bigger.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:12

So I guess that means for you that if the trend continues to grow, there might be retailers that have someone now, but that then, you know, a couple of years down the line looking for more stockists.

Dan Shearman: 00:21:21

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, we hope so. And look, you know, we, we base our, our product wholly on quality. So, you know, it's, it's, it's based on the quality of the ingredients. You know, we use an organic wildflower, honey. Um, you know, we, we source it from a single apiary where it's in certified organic Wildflower meadows, and it's sort of, you know, the product is, I, I, I can't skimp on that. I mean, you know, I'm coming from a food background. It's sort of, for me, it's, it has to be that way. Um, and, you know, we use fresh chilies. We don't use a mash, you know, we don't put any, you know, vinegars or preservatives in it. So it's a really pure product. So we do know that compared to other, you know, hot honeys or spicy honeys on the market, that our quality is above and above and beyond. So it's a really good sign that we're seeing any hot honey at all in, in retailers. Um, and when they cotton onto the fact that, you know, there's a, there's a better quality of hot honey out there and not putting down the other, um, producers because there's some great hot honeys on the market as well. Um, but hopefully if they see the quality is that much different then we'll get, you know, we'll, we'll get sort of, uh, that place on the, on the shelf.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:29

Yeah. And it's exciting to be in a market that is growing and developing as well. Because I think it would be harder, I imagine, I don't know because I've got no personal experience, but I imagine it would be harder to introduce a new, I'm just going to say something random flour, for example, or brand of flour, for example. Surely there's just you, you know what I mean? That was a very bad example, but you know what I mean? Something where a category, I guess, where there's already loads of competition, and I suppose you would have to be different. There would have to be something about your product that was different.

Dan Shearman: 00:23:01

Exactly.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:01

Because if you were selling a white self raising flour, for example, why would someone buy that?

Dan Shearman: 00:23:06

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it, it, it comes down to that. I mean, what, are you doing something genuinely different? Is it category defining? Is it, you know, uh, or is it just the quality is above and above and beyond? I mean, at the moment, you know, we were the first hot honey in, in the UK. So it was a brand new category that we kind of created, if you like. Um, another followed suit. I think we created it in the UK, but you know, it was, if there was an already, there was an existing market of hot honey. It's like right, okay, what do we do that's different? Yeah. How do we, you know, and people are doing that for the condiments category anyway. You've got to look at companies that are sort of going and saying, right, what's wrong with the condiments category? You know, there's too much sugar for one. So there's companies that are taking that sugar out the product and you know, in some cases they are compromising on, on taste because, you know, they're not great. Um, but then there's some that are really nailing it. You know, there's other, uh, condiments producers that are sort of doing a, um, you know, they're looking at the waste that might get generated from, you know, throwing away tomatoes or surplus, whatever it might be. And they're doing sort of wonky fruit or wonky vegetable. Um. It's condiments. So, you know, it's, it's looking at category, improving the quality or doing something genuinely, genuinely different. Um, and it's hard to know where Hot Honey sits at the moment, I guess, because we, you know, we, we are a honey, but we're also a condiment. Um, and it's funny to see where we sort of sit on the shelves. I mean, we occasionally we're in the condiments section, which is really where we want to be. Um. But you know, then we sit in the honey section and you know, how often do you go and visit the honey section to pick something up on a, you know, you don't do it every weekly shop. You might have one honey that lasts you a long time in your cupboard. So, you know, we, where we really want to be is that that condiment aisle, and it's that understanding of retailers and buyers and, and the consumers of where we should sit. Um. But that also comes into our, our sort of Gochujang Hot Honey, which is very much a more, you know, it's, it's much more of a condiment. Um, it's, you know, it's infused with, with Gochujang it's, it's Korean flavours, it's used on, you know, most of the applications that our hot honey will be used on. Um, but that's a, a real sort of, that's a new product to the category completely. So that's the first in the world. In fact, I was going to say UK, but, um, first to market in the world, so, you know, yeah. We always like to do something different to get noticed. New, you know, new to the category.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:36

That reminds me actually, we haven't actually spoken about uses for hot honey. So while we're on the subjects, um, let's touch on that briefly because I think that until I met you, I'd never heard of Hot Honey. I'm sure lots of people put honey on their toast or in their porridge or whatever, but hot honey's such a different concept. Um, just tell us a few of the ways we could use it.

Dan Shearman: 00:25:56

Well, the, the first application for me was obviously on a slice of pizza, um, which was revolutionary, you know, it was sort of, you just, you just imagine the, the salty elements of a, a speck or whatever it might be, or the salty meat that's on a pizza and the sort of creamy floor de latte. And then there's this spicy sweet honey, which was a, a, just an amazing combination. Um, and I brought a bottle of the honey that I tried back from New York. It's called Mike Salt Honey. It's quite, it's really big over there. Um, and he had these applications which were, you know, put on fried chicken, amazing, ice cream, incredible. So, you know, spicy, sweet ice cream really, really good. Um, and in cocktails, that's another great application the people are using it for at the moment. So, um, we've got a couple of bars and restaurants that are doing sort of spicy margaritas or spicy old fashions. Um, so that's another great application. But with the, the original hot honey generally can go on anything and we want to say anything, you know, we haven't found anything it doesn't really go with yet. Um. So, yeah, it's, it's, we, we pitched that as literally a condiment for everything. It's, um, I think it was Food is in magazine that said it was the world's most versatile condiment. Um, and, and they're probably right, you know, but when it comes to, um, the gochujang, the only thing it wouldn't go on is desserts. I mean, it could do actually, but, you know, we haven't tried it on ice cream just yet. Um, But yeah, the applications are, uh, you know, there's, there's so many. Cheese is a really good one as well. Christmas, we, we do really well at Christmas because people are putting it on, you know, with their cheese boards, putting it on their, uh, pigs and blankets, their sprouts, you name it. Um, great on roast carrots. I could go on forever. But yeah, it's, it's got so many applications.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:46

Oh, thank you. And so if people want to try it, obviously it's available on your website, which we're going to link to, and also on Amazon, which leads me on nicely to, um, how, what's your experience been selling a food product on Amazon? Because grocery on Amazon isn't new, but it's rel relatively new compared to some of the other categories. Um, so just out of pure, um, curiosity, what's your experience been like?

Dan Shearman: 00:28:10

Yeah, I mean, we're relatively new to Amazon, as you know, because you've given us some, some great help and a guiding hand getting us on there, but, um, it's, it's not our, our most profitable route to market yet. But we do sell a good amount of, of stock. Um, as I mentioned to you previously as well, I think the downside for us is probably the lack of reviews. So people don't tend to really, really do that. We, we sell a good amount, but they don't equate to reviews. Um. But you know, I'm, I'm guilty of it also, and I, if I buy anything on Amazon, I don't tend to, you know, I'll get the email saying, please review this product, and I have just time poor and I can't do it. So, um, but yeah, it's, we use the FBA option, um, which as you know, is just a case of sending in stock, um, and watching it sell, um, which is naturally a larger cut, um, of, of the product because they charge for that, for the storage and also, Labeling and fulfillment. Um, but we reflect that in our, in our prices. So it's, you'll pay slightly more if you buy on Amazon, but obviously the, uh, the, the, you know, the reason for doing that, which you, you'd get, you know, your product next day. So, and we, you know, we, we send things out directly within a day or two, but it's not guaranteed next day delivery. So if people want something like that, um, they can, they can buy us on Amazon, but it's, it's a couple of bit more. Um, but we don't see that couple of pound obviously, because that, that goes into the fulfillment process for, for Amazon. Um. But yeah, it's, it's been good so far. I mean, like I say, it's early days, but I think we're, you know, it, it, it's promising signs because we're sending bigger and bigger batches in on a monthly basis. Um, so whatever is working is working. Whether that be Amazon pushing us up the search rankings because we're selling more, um, or whatever it might be. Just lovely to see more of those reviews coming in.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:05

I think reviews are a challenge to everyone on Amazon, regardless of what you said or what category you're in. But, um, they will come, I think. Yeah.

Dan Shearman: 00:30:12

Yeah. Let's hope so. I mean, they'll, we get some wicked reviews on our website. Um, uh, just to make, you know, it's, it's funny because we, you know, People buy directly on our website, and then they'll get an email automatically from us to say, you know, how did, how did it go down? Please give us a review if you've got time. And they, and they do that automatically. It, I think it's probably that journey to review because they only have to click a button with us. Um, and then that's it, it's done in dusted. Whereas actually some of the, the emails I get from Amazon on my phone, for example, I'll click it and then it will ask me to log in because it's using a Webmail version, it doesn't go directly to the app and I think, oh, that's a faf and I don't, I just don't do it. Um, so yeah. But no, we get some amazing reviews on our website. If only we could just transfer some of those over to Amazon, it'd be great.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:59

Yeah, you're right. I think, I love the thing of Amazon as well, is that quite often we are either buying from there quite regularly. Or you've got, you are placed in an order and you've got four or five things you're buying. It's just hard. Because I, I really do try and make an effort to leave reviews because I feel like I should. Because yeah, my work, small business on Amazon, but honestly the, I usually just end up sitting down and doing them all in bulk at the end of a week or my, or whatever. Because it's, it's, it can be a lot if, you know, if you're like me, you know, you buy a lot on there and you're constantly getting these emails. I think it's hard and I think a lot of people probably have turned them off or they go to the junk now as well.

Dan Shearman: 00:31:37

Yeah, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:31:37

I think people either have to really love your products or really hate it now to leave a review is what I'm seeing. Yeah. You don't see that many freestyles now. They're all, um, really bad.

Dan Shearman: 00:31:48

You're right. I think that, I think there just needs to be a, an easier journey to, to do it. You know, I think it just needs to be a little bit, um, a little bit simpler. Mind you, I did leave a, a review for a jam jar the other day set of the set of jam jars because I'm just, you know, now, now I'm a seller on Amazon and think, you know. You know, it's, it's karma isn't it? You know? We'll put some reviews out there and hopefully some will come back to us.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:10

Absolutely. I, I, I agree. Um, I feel exactly the same. Um, and I know one other platform you're using, if I don't actually, don't mind spending a few more minutes of your time is Faire. Mm. So Faire is obviously a wholesale platform rather than direct to consumer.

Dan Shearman: 00:32:24

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:25

Um, I'd love to hear a little bit about your experience on that platform. Because it's relatively new. I haven't spoken to that many people who are using it. Um, how, how have you found that?

Dan Shearman: 00:32:36

Faire has been brilliant, actually. Um, it's really good for us. So they, they, yes, you, you're right, that they're a, um, they're a wholesaler. They're a distributor. They send the, normally they, they put product out to sort of retailers, but also restaurants and cafes and, but they began with a 300 pound free product offer for customers and free shipping. So we took that offer and we ran with it. You know, we approached as many people as we, as we could. Some of some of them were, you know, thought it was completely, it was too good to be true. Um, and, and, and that was a real, that was a real hurdle to kind of, to get round. It was like, hang on a minute. What? So what, what do you get out of it? What did Faire get out of it? But generally, you know, Faire uh, are doing it as they're a huge company and they, and they do it to, to bring in data and new customers so they can market other products to them. Um, But we would get the, you know, they would, they would get 300 pound free products. We'd get paid by Faire, that 300 pound in full. Faire would pay the shipping and the customer would get their, their free product. And we, we did really well, really, really well from that. And in fact, it, it brought us in enough capital, to develop another, uh, another product and we put some into marketing as well. So it was, it was really, really good for us. Um, now it's, I think, a hundred pounds in free delivery. So it's still a brilliant offer for any, any retailers new to Faire. I mean, you've got to be new to Faire and sign up via our link to, to take advantage. Um, but yeah, it was also really good for getting us into clients overseas. So we're now in, in quite a few European retailers, US as well, and, and Australia. So that was really good. So we've got some customers across the globe. Um, and it's pretty user friendly. Customers seem to really like it, and there's a really great support team as well from, from Faire. So we love it. It's just the, the, the challenge is to, to get people to believe that, you know, this free product offer, there's no catches, you know, um, it's not too good to be true. Um, but they will get, you know, they'll get the odd marketing email from Faire, but yeah, free products. Why not?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:34:44

That's great. I mean, I've only heard good things about Faire from people who buy stock on there and from people who sell. And with the free product offer. I'm just really curious now, is that part of your, when you approach maybe a small retailer, is that part of your approach now? Why don't you go to Faire and give us a try? Because it seems to me like that's a great option for someone small who's a bit nervous about taking on.

Dan Shearman: 00:35:06

Yes and no. Yeah. Yeah. So we, so we have, I mean, we, we don't lead in with that, um, purely because it, it comes across a bit salesy.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:14

Yeah, of course.

Dan Shearman: 00:35:15

So we'll have that conversation once we're in, in contact with someone if we're talking about, you know, samples and, and we send them over some sample sache to try our product and we'll say, look, you know, if you're not with Faire yet and you want to give us a try on shelf, there is a hundred pound free product offer, but they're already talking to us. So they, they know we're not a bot.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:34

Yeah, of course.

Dan Shearman: 00:35:34

Email.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:35

No, I'm not suggesting spamming people that.

Dan Shearman: 00:35:37

Yeah, no. So, so yeah, we, we do mention it. Um, and it's on our website as well, so when you get the trade page on our website, you can also, you can contact us directly or you can click on the Faire link and, and take advantage if they're not already signed up with Faire. If they are, then, then they can't take advantage of that. But yeah, it's, it's brilliant. It's great for them to sort of test the water and, and we get lots and lots of repeat orders through Faire now as well. So as soon as they, they've had that free product offer, they're, they're a customer for good on there normally. So, yeah, it's, it's brilliant. And like I say, the, the, I mean, the most exciting thing for me is, is their reach. Getting us out there across, across the globe. So seeing customers in, you know, New York and, um, Minnesota and, you know, even Canada actually, we've got some clients. So it's, it's, it's, it's amazing to see our product out there in the world. And that's, that's thanks to Faire.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:25

That is really exciting. And I think Faire has made that a lot easier because I think before Faire, if you wanted to get stock in wherever, Germany or wherever, it was a case of getting a distributor. Mm. For that country and then, then going out on your behalf. And as you mentioned before, with distributors, they're taking a big cut. So I think this, this is really nice that you can just do it yourself and that people can find you and yeah. How does the, and this is a very practical question, but I'm going to ask it anyway because people like this stuff. How does the shipping work? Does the clients pay for shipping? So if a customer orders from Australia, for example, are they paying for that or are you taking that hit?

Dan Shearman: 00:37:02

Faire. Yeah, so Faire. So in not, not all countries actually, I, there's, there's a list of, some of them are free shipping, some of them aren't, but majority are, are free product and free shipping. So Faire will, you know, pay that a hundred pounds and they'll pay the shipping as well. Um, and I believe that's for the first sort of three months and then the client starts paying for, for shipping. Um. But yeah, it's, it is, it's, it depends on, on where it is, but you know, Aus Australia can be quite high on the shipping rates. So once it gets past that three months, we might pay half of that shipping just to make sure we can kind of keep that, keep that customer.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:41

I'm thinking as we're talking as well, and this isn't something I'd I planned on speaking to you about, but it sounds to me like you have a big fulfillment job on your hands as well at the moment. If you're sending stock stocks to Amazon and you're fulfilling orders of retailers and. Yeah. How are you managing all of that? Because that sounds like a massive job.

Dan Shearman: 00:37:57

That's, well, that's, that's thanks to our amazing kitchen and production team, so, you know, they, they fulfill everything for us. So, you know, any, any orders that come in from Faire, straight through to the kitchen, goes out from the kitchen. Anything that comes in from Amazon, they'll send in. You know, obviously Amazon is fulfilled by, so we, we send in bulk, um, and Amazon will fulfill per per order. And then anything that comes in direct consumer through the website, again, picked up by the kitchen. And some of the larger retailers we sell into. So Whole Foods, for example, um, some of our, you know, um, distributors, salvo and, um, J D's Food Group and some of the big ones, they'll just go out by the pallet ready from the kitchen. So yeah, they, they're doing a brilliant job. I, you know, I remember the days when I was, I was pulling a, a cart to the post office. Um, you know, my son's, my son's little buggy full of, full of, uh, full of parcels. Um, so yeah, gone are those days, thankfully. I mean, we, we wouldn't be able to handle it, but yeah, the kitchen are brilliant for that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:56

That's great. And I guess that kind of reinforces what you were saying earlier about finding the right people to work with.

Dan Shearman: 00:39:03

Yeah. And, and look, not all, not all sort of production kitchen partners will, will be able to handle the.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:08

Yeah, of course.

Dan Shearman: 00:39:09

For you. But, you know, there's obviously fulfillment warehouses as well. So, um, a lot of food producers out there will have their product made and then they'll send that in bulk to a fulfillment warehouse where it costs very similar to Amazon, I guess. But, and that will be fulfilled by the warehouse for every order that comes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:25

That's great. Thank you. I have one final question before we finish up, if that's okay. Which is what would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators?

Dan Shearman: 00:39:35

So I probably, I wouldn't have a number one, but I might give you three short ones if I can.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:40

Yeah, yeah. Go for it.

Dan Shearman: 00:39:41

So, um, I think, well, I think what if I was to put them in order? I think my, my number one would be don't, don't go it alone. So I've done that in the past with other businesses, just me as, as the founder, director, and running everything. Um, and, and it crumbled, you know, and I've, I've seen other founders in the same situation where they have no sort of supports, you know, no sort of no one to, to keep each other going through the, the lows and, and the highs. Celebrate the wins. Um, and also, you know, a business partner brings strengths. So, you know, I'm, uh, I suffer from ADHD and Dyscalculia, so like when it comes to the numbers, um, I just, that's, that's something that's, that's beyond me. So, you know, I'm the creative and recipe development, branding, packaging, marketing, and, um, we're both sales. Um, and Andy brings in the logistical side of things, which is obviously a massive undertaking. Um, when you think about managing suppliers and stock and customer orders. Finances. So I, I think there was, there was one key piece of advice I, I got from, um, Yani Papalis, who's the, um, one of the founders of Meat Liquor, and he said, get yourself a responsible adult. And, and I've lived by that and Andy is definitely my responsible adult, so without him, yeah. So I'd say that would be one. Number one, don't go it alone. Um, you know, find, find someone who's equally passionate about your product and, and do it together and, and bounce off each other. Um, I'd say the second is probably learn. So, you know, stay, stay plugged in and listen to advice, listen to podcasts, uh, network. So, you know, get out there, network with, with people within the, the industry and connect with other founders. Go to events. So, you know, for, for me, you know, we're, we're still trying to become experts in our field. I'm not sure we'll ever be experts, but we're trying to become learned in our, in our field. You know, even coming from a food background. F and b and, and product development is completely different. It's a whole new, whole new world. So, yeah, so learning is, is an, is another big one. And also, I guess learn from your mistakes. Um, that's, that's another, another sort of part of, of learning. Um, you know, if you're not, if you're not failing, you're not trying, right? So, um, you're going to make a lot of mistakes along the way, but learn, learn from those. Um, and, and I guess the last one would be believe in, in your product over financial. So this started as a, as a genuine love for the product rather than just an opportunity to make money. Of course, we wanted to make money when we produced the, the product, but you know, it it, when it started to take off and we saw a real gap in the market, that's when it became a, a proper business. So I think if you are going to put something out there into the world, make sure you really believe in it. Not just a, you know, look at the, oh, you know, ketchups are doing really well, let's make a ketchup. But why are you doing it? You know, is it something that's really different and do you love it? So be proud of what you put out there and, and don't, you know, don't compromise on flavour and ingredients and, and like, make sure it's, it's something you, you, you love before it goes out. So I think that'd be my, my three if you like.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:55

They're all brilliant. Thank you. And I completely agree with you on what I agree with you on all of them. And, but on the third one, I think especially knowing that it is hard, it's work. I think if you don't have your heart behind it, it's, it must be so much harder.

Dan Shearman: 00:43:09

Yeah, exactly. Well, you, you know what it feels like when you're working for somebody else, it doesn't, you know, it, it feels like work. Um, and when you're, when you're working for yourself, but you're doing something that you love, you could be working, you know, really hard, but it doesn't feel. Like work. Does that make sense?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:43:26

It's, yeah, it does.

Dan Shearman: 00:43:27

I mean, it's, it's because we love it. And we love what we do, and we're proud of what we put out. E everything's exciting. You know, even the bumps in the road and even the challenges, uh, challenges we haven't really faced before. And yes, they're stressful, but they're also, this is fun because we're learning and we love this industry, whereas it's, you know, when you are, when you're working for somebody else and you're just doing a job for the sake of a job and also the, you're putting money in their pocket, not your own. But you know. Yeah, if, if you love it, it's a hell of a lot easier.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:43:55

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for everything you shared with us.

Dan Shearman: 00:43:59

Pleasure.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:01

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, Vicki weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.