How to create a children’s fashion brand – with Claire Grant – OriOrso

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas to Life podcast, practical advice and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host, Vicki Weinberg. Hi. So today I'm speaking with Claire Grant from OriOrso. OriOrso is a colorful unisex baby brand created to make parents lives easier for clever design without compromising on style. The hero product is the jogger socks, so printed jogging bottoms with non-slip socks attached into the hem to keep socks on all day long. And any of you who have babies or have had babies will know how difficult that can be. So I had a really fascinating conversation with Claire. She's the first guest, um, that we've had on today who's created a fashion brand from scratch. Um, we have talked about fashion in previous episodes, I found it really interesting hearing about the steps involved in creating a fashion product, which is quite different from other products in that of course there were so many unknowns when you get started in terms of sorts of fabrics and um, putting things together and sizing and all kinds of things. And Claire um, very currently talked us through all of that in loads of details. So if you are looking to start a fashion brand, I think this is a must listen episode. And even if you're not, I really think you will take something away from this because it is super interesting. So I would now love to introduce you to Claire. So, hi Claire. Thank you so much for being here.

Claire Grant: 00:01:28

Hi Vicky. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on the podcast and I'm excited to talk to you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:34

So can you, we please start, if you give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Claire Grant: 00:01:39

Yes, I can. So my name's Claire. I'm a mom of one and soon to be two from Edinburgh in Scotland. I started OriOrso as a brand two years ago when I was on maternity leave with my daughter Orianna. Um, so OriOrso sells colorful unisex baby wear, uh, designed to make parents lives easier. And I think our hero product is our jogger socks, which are cozy, comfy, jogging bottoms with non-slip socks attached into the hem. So toddlers can't pull them off, and to save parents time and hassle in their day to day.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:12

That's amazing. Thank you. So I've got so many questions. Um, where should I start? How about what inspired you to start obvious? So was it linked to becoming a parent? Um, tell me about that.

Claire Grant: 00:02:26

Yeah, I think. Becoming a mom definitely was a trigger point. I've always wanted to start my own business and it's always been something like in the back of my mind. I love hearing about other businesses. Um, becoming a mom was, uh, a point where I had a bit more head space. I think you become so busy as a mom, but you also have a huge amount of time to think whether it's rocking your baby at night or it's going out for walks with the pram. Um, and I was feeling also slightly brain dead like a lot of think a lot of moms do, where you're, you're just constantly like doing the day to day routine without actually have that feeling that you've got much, um, other purpose. So I started listening to podcasts. I'd always been interested in podcasts, but, um, becoming a mom, like definitely started listening to more and kinda started listening to ones about how other businesses starts and, um, how I could start my own business. And I'd say the other thing I, I used to do is I had this little notebook. That I used to keep beside when I was feeding, and I would just always be making lists of product ideas, um, about stuff that was like happening to me and like things that I thought I could solve with the product. Um, so yeah, I'd definitely say that becoming a mom was a trigger point in starting the business and it, it gave me the time and the space to do so.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:41

Amazing. Thank you. And when you were talking, I was thinking, this is so relatable because your story and mine is so similar. I started my first products business when my daughter was six months old for so many of the reasons that you'd said. And it was also looking, listening to podcasts was what got me and thinking, oh, actually I could do that. So it's so interesting. Um, so you had lots of product ideas, which, what was your first product? And tell us how that came about.

Claire Grant: 00:04:07

Yeah, so it wasn't actually ASO Um, I, I started with that long list of ideas of things I could do. Um, the one that I kind of started with, uh, the process of developing a product or brand was, was actually mum boxes. Um, It was around the idea of like a care box for a mom that had a slight point of difference that was like focused on the kind of the fourth trimester and there's lots of lovely brands out there, and I wanted to do something kinda similar to that. Um, but actually after doing the kind of research phase on that, I realized how much I loved developing products. So I should have mentioned at the beginning my, but my background is in product development, but more in the kind of food space. So, um, Mum Boxees was a, a good idea, but there was no development of the product. It would just be like packaging and then selling. Um, so OriOrso, um, came like that, that was a second idea jogger socks was the idea because my daughter was just constantly taking her socks off. I could not feel life of me, keep them on. And I was constantly chasing around the house and she had cold toes all the time, and I thought there had to be a better way. Um, and that's kind of how the idea was formed.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:19

That's amazing. Thank you. And isn't it funny how like, it's often it's the thing that's causing you, I don't wanna say stress, but stress or hassle or like the thing that's a problem is actually the thing that often we just manage to solve with products.

Claire Grant: 00:05:31

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It was just like, surely there must be a better way. Um, and that was kind of the first part of developing the brand was looking at alternatives out there of like, how do other moms keep baby socks on? And there was, there is another product on the market that, that does that, and I, I bought that and she managed to get that off too. And I was like, That's not working. So we need, we need to, to do something else. And that's how it came up with the first, uh, concept idea.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:58

So if you don't mind, could you talk us through the process of coming up with the concept to actually developing the products? And I know that's a, that's a big question so we can certainly break it down, but where, how did you get started from, okay, this is an idea to actually having something you could sell.

Claire Grant: 00:06:14

Yeah. Yeah. So it, that is a big question. I had to think about it before, and I've, I've broken it down to, to five phases and I'm definitely still in, in the fifth phase at the moment. Um, so research being the first product development in the manufacturing, building a brand, and then marketing and selling. Um, so I just kind of talk to the first one, which is the research phase. I think, like I mentioned, I had the, um, the, the beauty of having a bit of time on my hands and I was on my phone a lot, so I was able to get really stuck in with the, the market research aspect. And that was, I kinda started, uh, through Facebook groups and, um, Instagram, which are, are great sources of knowledge on, um, what parents are looking for, what products are already on the market. Um, just trying to get like a real understanding of the, the baby and parenting markets and joining as many groups as possible, as well as like, How to start business groups. So, um, joined all of them and you can use a search function in, in Facebook groups and that was amazing at the beginning when I was like really trying to target what my product was, was gonna be filling the need for and seeing if people were looking for that. And certainly I found that many moms were talking about keeping their children's socks on and there was a lot of kind of ideas of how you should do it, and no one really had a, a product that did that. So that was a, a point where I thought, okay, maybe I'm onto something here. Um, also like looking at competitors, similar brands and other products on the market that maybe are not direct competitors, but have like a similar story to you and working at like how they've developed and how they market their product. Um, and then additionally, like really understanding who my target market were. So for me it was, it was parents with a problem who are, who are in that like pain point of like, how do you keep the socks on? And I'm spending so long looking for them every day. I'm constantly losing them. So like they were a big target market as well as people looking for gifts. So I'd say my product is very kinda gift worthy. Cause it might not be something that a parent realizes they need when they have a, have a child. Um, and if, if they're given it as a gift, um, I would hope that it was something that they would say, Wow, that's, that's amazing. Like, I'm gonna use that loads. Um, so they were the two kind of target markets for me where the, the parents with the problem as well as the gifting area. So that was kind of the first phase, like the, the research and like really making sure I understood the market and also the market trends like keywords and buzzwords, um, and kind of creating what I wanted my brand to be. So I wanted it to make parents' lives easier and I really wanted to be fun, colorful. And I spent three years in Australia just before I had my daughter. And they have some really beautiful, colorful, abstract brands that I don't see on the market here, um, whether they're not on the market here and the products are a bit different. And I really wanted to kind of bring some of that colorful inspiration into my product. So that's, um, the other angle as well as the making parent's lives easier.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:26

Oh, thank you for that. I was about, I was going to ask about the design, cause obviously how the product works is one thing, but yeah, there is the sort of, how it looks is another because, and I guess they're of, I dunno if they're equal importance, but they're both certainly important when it comes to the ageable product.

Claire Grant: 00:09:39

Definitely. I'd say the color aspect, um, for me, I really wanted, I love color myself. Um, and I feel like it really brings like sunshine into your day. And when you're a parent who's tired and is pouring with rain and you're just stuck at home, like putting colorful clothes on your kids like has such an effect on mood is like, I think they call it dopamine dressing. Like, wear color and you will, you'll bring like sunshine. So that was one of my other focuses as well as the, the functionality of the product.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:10

That's brilliant. Thank you. And doing your research. I'm really curious, did you at any point, and maybe you didn't this early on, but did you at any point sort of test out your ideas on people, um, in terms of the actual products? And if, if so, at what stage did you feel comfortable to say, Okay, this is my idea?

Claire Grant: 00:10:28

Yeah, I should have mentioned, I actually did some surveys quite early on. Well, I did two rounds. So firstly it was just kinda looking more at the market, the clothing market as a whole, and like what kind of things people were buying and how much they were spending. And then I, I was a bit more specific in my kind of concept to see whether people liked it. Um, I did the, the surveys. I started with friends and family, and then I put them actually into some of those Facebook groups I've mentioned with lots of parents. So, so many with thousands and thousands of parents. UK and worldwide. And I just said like, If anyone's got five minutes, would you mind filling this in? And I didn't think I'd get a huge response cause I wasn't like offering anything up. But I did, I got a really good response on them and that kind of gave me the confidence in the concept. Um, as well as I kind of turned to my, my home ec sewing classes and, and made and attached some socks into my daughter's trousers, um, just at home and shared that with some friends and they were all like, That's amazing idea. Like you should go for it. Um, so yeah, I did a bit of testing, um, I would say probably in the first three to four months. And then I thought that you just gotta give it a try and then see what happens from there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:43

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really brave as well to share your idea. And the reason I asked is I know that there were, there were different I thoughts out there aren't there about whether you should share your idea, how soon you share your idea. Um, personally I think it is a good idea because you don't know if it's a good idea when it's just your idea. Yeah. So it sounds like what you did was really sensible. And so once you'd, um, you know, you were pretty confident that the concept was going to work, what happened?

Claire Grant: 00:12:09

Yeah, so like I said, I've developed products before, so I was kind of aware of like the stages you had to take, but actually developing a clothing product was, was very different to, to food products I'd developed in the past. But I tried to look at it in like a similar light, and so I realized that it was, it was food product. I'd need to come up with a recipe and for a clothing product. Effectively had to do the same. And I learned that that was called a tech pack, which is effectively step by step of how to make the product and all the ingredients that, um, you would need to make it. So that was kind of my analogy in my head, like, right, okay, I need to create the recipe for this product. Um, and I found that in order to do that I needed a garment technologist, cuz I didn't have the, the experience or the knowledge to be able to do that. Um, so I found the garment technologist online. I think I interviewed maybe four different ones and found one that seemed to really get my product and like the idea. And, um, she created the first tech pack, which is, uh, like the, the dimensions of the product, how it looks and materials and things like where your labels are gonna be, um, things like that. So that was my first step and that felt like quite a big achievement and getting getting to something that looked like what I was, uh, thinking of in, in reality, it's very far from where I am now. Like it has progressed and, and developed, but that was a starting point. At the same time, I spent a lot of time looking for material manufacturers cuz I wasn't sure how I wanted. Material to be like, how, what material I wanted and how it was gonna look, um, and the kind of material sourcing. So that kind of product development phase was a lot of like discovery and working out, like in the clothing industry, how it works with manufacturers and um, how much they do and how much you need to do yourself. Cuz there's lots of kind of different types of manufacturers. You can do ones that you basically buy everything and give it to them and then they put it together. Or you can work with someone who will develop everything for you and give you a finished product. There's quite a difference, um, in their price and how they work. So that was a whole kind of learning phase again. Um, and it was, it was a, it was a good one, Um, it probably took me two or three months that I, I was doing that phase whilst also looking for manufacturers and building the brand all at the same time. And I should also mention the print design, uh, which was a big part. So originally I had to plan to, um, get someone in to help me design the prints. I had kind of a bit of an idea of what I wanted them to look like, the abstract, bright colors, but I had no experience in print design. And I, I didn't think of myself as being that creative. Um, but it was actually my sister who has a lot more experience. She's worked in fashion before, and she said, Why don't you just have a go at like, putting some things together, playing with some colors, and then you can go from there. And I love the process, so I, I watched a lot of YouTube videos on how you could create prints yourself. Um, and in the end, all five prints are in my range. I've created myself. Um, so that was quite, uh, a learning process, but I just, I, I found it such like a methodical, um, and creative way of like doing something when you're tired, but you still wanted to, to get to do something with your hands. So like sitting at night. Um, and watching TV and just like creating the prints. Um, and then I found, uh, a print designer online who was able to then kind of digitize them for me. So like, I wasn't sure if I was to go to a print manufacturer, if they would actually be able to print what I'd made. Uh, so I found her and she was able to get them to the right, uh, kind of ratio and file format so that they were print ready

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:01

thank you. Well, there's, that is a lot It sounds like you were really busy. I'm, I've got a few questions. My first one is, um, and I'm sorry if this is a really daft question, but, so are the designs printed onto fabric or are they woven into the fabric? And I know that might be a really daft question, but I honestly don't know.

Claire Grant: 00:16:19

No, no, that's a good question. And it's another, that was a whole other learning is like how the actual, uh, fabrics are printed. Cause you've got so many different options. Um, so mine are what's called digital printing, um, the, which is a more modern version of printing and it allows you to do smaller. Uh, quantities. And so it's kind of printed on demand and you can do anything from like a 20 centimeter square right up to meter, the meters. Whereas if you go for a more traditional method, it's, it's very intensive, um, in the actual, uh, procedure, uh, like the process. So you, you need to do a lot bigger runs. Um, and that was not something that I was wanting to do up upfront. So, uh, straight away I'd said for starting out I needed to go digital printing, um, which has some downsides, but I've, I've found a really good printer who I use in Poland to, I went through like lots of different ones to, to test out the, the getting the right color in the right kind of, um, longevity of the prints. And I'm happy with the one I've. That's really good.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:24

And so do you have to source the fabric and then send it to get printed? Is that how it works?

Claire Grant: 00:17:29

Um, you can do that and that, that's what I was kinda looking at in that second phase of development that I would be buying my own material and then finding a printer. But what I've, what I've actually got now is, uh, a company that do both. So they, they source all the material and you can choose which one that you want printed and you just provide your designs.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:51

Oh, that's fantastic. And like that, yeah. Must make things easier as well.

Claire Grant: 00:17:54

Definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:56

And then before we move on, if that's okay, one more question about the tech packs. I'm just, I'm just curious again because I dunno much about the clothing industry. Yeah. So does the, um, specialist that you work with when it comes to tech pack, are they able to guide you in terms of what materials might work, um, where you'd put washing labels, you know, all those key things. Um, is part of their role to help you figure that out? Because I'm guessing that you might have some ideas, but they've obviously got so much more experience. Does that help their role?

Claire Grant: 00:18:26

Um, it, I think it really depends on, on who you go with, but they, I certainly at the beginning was leaning on my tech pack designer to kind of tell me what she knew and like she was the one that kinda guided me on what was needed. Originally I had a draw string at the waist and I quickly learned that there was a lot of safety regulations around that with younger children. And in the end, I've not actually got one on the product cause I didn't think it was needed, but she was able to tell me things like that as well as, like you say, the, the need for the wash care labels and then where your size labels need to be. Um, so yeah, I would say depending on who you get, then they can help you and find all this information out. Equally you, you can find out online. It's just a bit more work.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:12

Yeah. Thank you. So I guess it, I guess then it's quite important to interview as you did, interview a couple of people and find someone who's able to do what you need from them. Cuz I guess everyone will have different, you know, some people I guess will know exactly what they need and just need someone to put the pack together while others might need a bit more insight, I guess is the right word into it.

Claire Grant: 00:19:33

Yeah, exactly. That's right.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:36

Thank you. So let's move on to the next, if that's okay, Claire?

Claire Grant: 00:19:40

Yep.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:43

So what happened next?

Claire Grant: 00:19:44

Oh, sorry, I thought you were next phase of questions. Uh, so the next phase after product development, uh, would be the manufacturing phase, which is probably the, the most challenging. It's all a bit of an unknown and uh, when you're on your own, it can quite often feeling like you're shouting into a black hole. Um, and it's an area that I was probably more experienced with cuz I've dealt with a lot of manufacturers in, in previous roles where I was taking products that were developed and saying, Can you manufacture this? But I usually had a big brand behind me. I mean, that was really nice and you, and you already had a relationship there, but when you're on your own and you're just cold emailing or cold calling people and and saying, Hey, can you help me manufacture my product? Then it's a lot more difficult to kind of get that conversation started. Uh, so yeah, the manufacturing phase was, was a big one and I spent a lot of time looking for manufacturers and there's so many different places you can find them simply through Google, which has its, um, plus sides and downsides cause you tend to get the big, big ones on there. Um, I found that actually looking through hashtags on LinkedIn and Instagram, Was able to kind of source a lot of manufacturers that way. Uh, some brands post a list of their manufacturers on their website, which can be quite helpful to kinda get some leads. And then of course, back on the Facebook group. So, um, there's one Facebook group I'm part of called the Fashion Feed, which is been an amazing help and a lot of people share manufacturing manufacturers' information on there. So yeah, that was, that was kind of a big learning. I was, at the beginning, I was looking at manufacturers in every country there. It wasn't like it needs to be UK made, it needs, needs to be made here. I was very open to like it being made anywhere. Um, and Poland, Sorry, not Poland. Portugal was mentioned by a lot of people as being a big, um, place for, for kids who are manufacturers. Um, but what I found is, I would get so far was one, and then it, they would stop responding or the MOQs wouldn't work, or there was just something every time, like it was a hurdle. So you kept feeling like you were getting somewhere and then it would be like, Oh. Back to the drawing board, need to find someone else. Um, and I think at that point I realized that I wasn't actually ready for manufacturing. And I, this is something that I'd heard in other podcasts, that to be ready to manufacture, you need to, you need to have samples made, you need to have your tech pack like nailed. And I think at some point I realized actually I've got a tech pack, but I've, I've never had samples made. And I was hoping that I could find a manufacturer that might be able to do that for me or at least assist me with. But I think I was looking for a needle in the haystack at that point. And I thought, Okay, I need to find a different way, um, that's maybe a bit slower and um, maybe a bit more expensive, but it's gonna allow me to test. And that's when I started looking to the seamstress rather than the manufacturer.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:49

That really makes sense. And I think finding manufacturers is really, Yeah, it's, it's, it's lots of things. It's hard. It's hard work. It's definitely hard work. I really like what you said about how you use Instagram looking for supplies actually, cuz that's, I guess something that people may not automatically think of is going on LinkedIn or, or going on Instagram or, or anywhere else. Yeah, I think Google is somewhere people go and obviously they were sourcing sites. I think that's really smart as well to broaden your search because I think you do need to be, in order to find a good manufacturer, you need to be contacting as many as possible. Like you can't just pick up the phone and phone five people and hope for the best can you.

Claire Grant: 00:23:30

It's no, absolutely not. And, and yeah, you do need to kind of be creative. And, and the other one I should have said was TikTok. So a lot of these big factories are actually on TikTok now, which you maybe wouldn't have thought about at the beginning, but like on when, I didn't think about at the beginning of starting my brand. But, um, they're doing marketing just as much as we are marketing. They're wanting more clients, so they're using things like TikTok and Instagram to market their factories.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:56

That's really, that's something else that I wouldn't have thought of. I guess things are moving on so, so quickly, aren't they? Um, yeah. I mean, TikTok isn't something that I use, but it makes total sense actually that factories, you know, would be looking as you say, looking for more clients.

Claire Grant: 00:24:12

Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:15

And so at that's stage, had you decided then you were going to get someone, like you mentioned to seamstress to make up a small batch rather than sort of doing large scale manufacturing?

Claire Grant: 00:24:25

Yeah, that's, at that point I. Stopped and I kind of reassess where I was at. Cause I think I was getting so caught up in the fact that I couldn't find a manufacturer and that it was never gonna work. That I hadn't realized that it was, it was actually cuz I wasn't ready and the product wasn't ready for a manufacturer. So I then set up about looking for a seamstress and I was really lucky. I managed to find a seamstress quite local to me in Edinburgh. So she's just 30 minutes away. Um, and went and, and met with her and she was exactly what I was looking for. So she helped me take the tech, the original tech pack and actually turn it into samples, which is something like looking back, I'm like, how, how had I not done that? How did I think that I could just jump from a tech pack, which is all theoretical measurements, straight to manufacture. And the seamstress was able to actually create the product that was on my tech pack. And you have like, Sizes in the middle of your sizes. So I've got five sizes. We chose the midpoint and she made a sample of that and I was able to test that on my daughter and make tweaks on it, make size tweaks. Um, and we went through a few process, a few different iterations of, of sizes before I was happy. And then, um, I found a pattern grader. So another, uh, person I didn't know I need needed was a pattern grader who takes that one size and makes sure that the sizes up and down from that are accurate. Um, and between the pattern cut, the seamstresses was a bit of a kind of back and forward of getting the, the samples made, making small tweaks on each one, and then the pattern grader would regrade the, the patterns that you use to make the product. So that was a whole process, which I'd. I just didn't realize I needed to do and I'm so glad I did cuz it made sure that we got the, the right fit for the product. Um, and then it, it also was able to happen quite quickly cuz I was local so I could go meet with her and we can make the changes there and then, um, and she was also able to help me create the first actual products. So when you do the sampling, you do it in a a, a material that's not your final, final, um, printed material just due to cost. But then when we were happy with all the sizing, she was then able to make a full range. And that was amazing cause it was like actually seeing your product in real life, not just on, on digitized, on screen. So, yeah, definitely having a seamstress was amazing and I still use her now. So for my, my sweatshirts and my dribble boobs, um, I do them in smaller quantities, so she still makes them for me. And it just allows you to kinda test and learn and make changes rather than going to manufacture where you have a huge number of upfront costs with everything you need to buy. Um, and then the risk that you take on from that.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:15

Yeah, that's amazing. And I think you, first of all, I think you're so right that it makes total sense to do a small batch initially rather than, as you say, order potentially hundreds and then find out that actually that, you know, they're hard to sell. Yeah. Um, but also it makes so much sense what you were saying about working with the seamstress, just to work out the sizes, because that was a question I had that you've, you've answered now, Thank you for that, which was, how on earth do you know, like how big something needs to be to fit a six month fold or a 12 month old or, or whatever. It's. It must be an absolute minefield. So I think that sounds like a really worthwhile price. I guess it must have added time to what you were doing, but it sounds like it was so worthwhile.

Claire Grant: 00:27:55

Yeah, definitely. Um, I, I, yeah, naively thought you could just go straight into manufacturing and the theoretical sides is that the tech pack had would be accurate, but they are, they're so different from, from where I am now. And actually I made quite a few design changes to the original tech pack as well. So like the, the cut of the trouser is different and uh, the waistband width and all these little things that you don't realize when you're just seeing it as a picture on the screen. And then when you actually see the product and you put it on someone, it's like, okay, these things need to change. Um, So, yeah, probably something obvious to many people, I think. But at the time I, I did not realize the importance of it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:37

And to be honest, it's only obvious when, you know, isn't it Like in hindsight it might be obvious, but at the time I, I don't, there's so much that just isn't obvious because we, we just don't know.

Claire Grant: 00:28:46

Yeah, exactly.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:48

So never gives yourself a hard time for not knowing things because I think we all end by not knowing things. So did you do, um, a lot of testing with the samples then? Cause that must have been a good opportunity as well to actually get them on babies and check. Didn't pull down or, Yeah,

Claire Grant: 00:29:04

Yeah. No, I did. I did. Uh, so actually giving them to people with, of all different sizes. So it was mainly just based on my daughter at the beginning, purely cuz I had her to hand to try them on. Um, but once I was able to get the full range of sizes, I, I was looking for friends and family who had babies in different age categories to try them out. Um, and also to kind of generate my in first images of the product, like on different children. So, um, yet going, again, going a seamstress enabled that. Cause I think if you go straight to manufacture, then you don't always get all the, the samples up front or at least you have to pay quite a lot of money to get samples done. Whereas the seamstress, it's, it's kind of a different arrangement. So you, you actually have samples. You can get photography done, um, and do your testing as.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:55

That's amazing. And I guess that all gives you up ready to start selling.

Claire Grant: 00:29:59

Definitely. Yeah. So it was, it was a different, Originally I'd planned to get the manufacturer and have a big product launch and have all these products to sell and it completely flipped. I completely changed my tact and decided, no, I was gonna do this slowly and I was gonna try and do it, um, in a way that I could learn at each step. And, and that's what the seamstress enabled me to do. So she made my first production run and then that this, the subsequent two production runs after that were through the seamstress and I started, I think it was like maybe 30 units at the beginning. And that was amazing. Like it was actual product they could sell, but it wasn't, I wasn't having to buy so much. I was gonna be sitting on all the stock with only having, I think I had like two or 300 followers on Instagram when I launched. Um, so I, I knew, and, um, I'd heard it again in podcasts that you should never have more stock than your followers. Um, which is a good learning and something that I tried to sit by at the, at the beginning. So, uh, that's how I started and it was allowed me to launch quick, quickly. Another thing with manufacturers is you have quite a long lead time as well as the upfront costs. Uh, whereas with the seamstress, I was able to, to get something that I could actually launch into the market and then get feedback on. And if there was, there wasn't many changes to, to be made. But if there had been, then I, I was able to do that before the next launch of products. So it was very much small scale at the beginning.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:31:29

That really makes sense. And I guess as well, if, and it sounds like you did so much testing, this wasn't going to be the case, but let's say for example, you did find out there was an issue on a certain size or something. I guess it would've been with 10 units maybe rather than hundreds. Um, cuz what I mean, What I guess no one wants to do is order a lot of something and then find out that actually there's something that's not quite right because either that stock you can't sell or you get all kinds of issues. But it sounds like because it was a small batch, had anything not been quite right, you would've had the opportunity to change that without it having a massive impact.

Claire Grant: 00:32:03

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:03

Like financial or otherwise.

Claire Grant: 00:32:05

Yeah. And there, there was actually, you mentioned that on one of the smallest sizes, the waistband, um, elastic skate or the, the width of the waistband meant that it was too tight. And that's something that we were able to pick up, but right on that first batch and I think maybe only three or four, uh, units were affected, and then for the next batch we were able to increase it. And it's just like, right, that's sorted with, with minimal impact to, um, to the range, which was great.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:32

That makes so much sense. And before we talk a little bit more about the launch, what I'm also interested in is, I know that you've mentioned that your jogger socks now, um, you've moved from a small batch production to a larger manufacturer. So how, how did that come about and how does that work now, if you don't mind sharing?

Claire Grant: 00:32:48

No, yeah, of course. Uh, so that's been more of a recent thing. So I just had the, the first batch of product delivered last month, so all fairly new. Uh, and that's after I'd done the first three batches with my seamstress. I kind of got to a point was like, right, I need to grow. If I want to grow this, the seamstress is, is great, but there's, there's not mar, there's no margin in it or very little margin in it. Um, when. When your costs are high, um, going to manufacture will reduce your costs as well as being able to get a lot of stock at once. Um, so I, I knew I had to take the step at some point. Um, so I went back to my long, long, long list of manufacturers that I'd reached out, um, in the, the first year and just started contacting them again. And by that point I was a bit more clued up on what I needed and where I was at, and I was very confident. I already had the product developed and I, I knew how, um, I needed to work with the manufacturer to get them made. So I also had the fabric, I should have said. Um, so I, I was relying less on the manufacturer. I was just looking for someone to put them together. And it was actually one of those follow up emails that, that, um, gave the manufacturer that I've end up going with. Uh, they're in, in the uk which again, at the outset, I didn't ever think it was gonna be possible to find a UK manufacturer based on on cost, but I have, and it's amazing. I'm so happy to be making in the UK cuz as well as all the issues with Brexit and shipping and, uh, so many, um, problems that you have with bring in stock into the, into the country. It's, uh, it's an amazing company. They're baby, baby wear specific. Uh, they're owned by women. It's, they do relatively small scale, the small batches. And they were able to like really help me with that transition from seamstress to manufacturers. So they've got so much experience and like, I feel like I've hit a gold, um, gold dust with like actually finding them. So they made it really easy for me to transition and they were able to kind of point me in the right direction for getting more labels made, getting my care labels, made my brand labels, um, and kind of handhold in that process as well as the kind of, I knew they already. Baby wear for lots of brands. So I knew that they were at the, the standard that I needed and they also had the safety measures in place to make sure that the product was, was compliant.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:18

That sounds amazing. And what are differences are, it sounds like you were in a completely different space when you contacted them because as you said, you'd done the small batches, you'd done lots of testing, you knew exactly where you were and what you needed. That must have made a difference in how you sort of reached out to, to manufacturers.

Claire Grant: 00:35:34

Definitely. I think I was, I was more ready when they came back and originally they'd said that they were at capacity for the year and they weren't taking any new clients. And I think I was potentially a little bit relieved cuz I, I realized that maybe if they had said yes, can you manufacture next week, then I wouldn't have known what to do. Whereas this time when they said, Yeah, we, we have. Coming up then I was able to say, Right, okay, like, book me in, I'll be ready for it. So yeah, it, it was a definite, um, it was probably like eight or nine months, the time difference of speaking to them. But in that timeframe I learned so much, um, about what was actually required.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:12

Yeah, it sounds like it was definitely time well spent.

Claire Grant: 00:36:15

Yes, definitely. Mm-hmm.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:17

So, um, so let's talk about the next stage in the process then. So I guess we were up to the point at which you were sort of launching your, your products with the smaller batches.

Claire Grant: 00:36:26

Mm. Yeah, so I launched December, 2021. Uh, so 10 months now. It, it definitely feels like a lot longer than that. But, um, that's when the website went live. So I created a, a Shopify site and, um, and, and did a, a product launch that way. Managed to sell through fairly quickly. And then, um, did another, uh, small drop after that and just tried to, it, it became, it was like a change in what I was doing. So you're going from very, like, focused on the manufacturing, the product, and then you get the product and it's like, Right, okay, how do you sell this? Like, how do you market this? And that was an, an area that I don't have a huge amount of experience or I didn't have a huge amount of experience and before I never actually worked in marketing. Um, but I again enjoyed the process of finding out, and there's so many. Podcasts, I can mentioned podcasts the way through this that you can listen to on specific areas of marketing. So I, I tried to like focus in on different things I could be doing and there's so many different ways to market. Um, but that was another, another reason I wanted to go to a manufacturer cuz I felt that although I was, I had some stock, I was constantly becoming outta stock online on not all, but some of the sizes, uh, went really quickly and some of the prints. And I felt like sometimes my marketing was getting a bit lost because you're driving people to your site and then there's no stock. And you're wondering are they not buying because there's, there's not, they've not got the right size or print or are they not buying cause they don't like the product. And that was another point I was like, I think I need to, to go to a manufacturer cuz I need to get more scalability as well as having the, the kind of margin in order to do wholesale and, um, and other marketing activities as well as, um, as the selling aspect. And I would also say the influencers. Uh, so I really wanted to be able to gift influencers, which the big way to grow your business, but when you've only got a certain amount of stock, you don't wanna then be giving it away to influencers and then driving traffic and your, your websites out of stock. So all of those things were, were big reasons for me from moving to the seamstress, to the manufacturer.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:47

Yeah, I can definitely see the challenge there because I guess you're putting so much work in, but then if there's nothing touch yourself, you'd see the return at the end of it. going in circles, I assume.

Claire Grant: 00:38:57

Yeah. Going in circles and never sure why you're not seeing the constant sales. Uh, so I, I realized that I had to take the, the next step at some point to, to go from small scale to, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm large scale now, but I've got a lot more product to, to play with now than I did with the seamstress.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:18

And you say, you mentioned, and you're quite right, that there's so many different things you can do in terms of marketing your products. What have been some of the things that have worked for.

Claire Grant: 00:39:27

Um, I'm still learning, to be honest, uh, in that area. And I think there's, there's so many different things and the more you kind of read, the more it does become a little bit overwhelming sometimes. So I'm trying to focus on a few key areas. So Instagram was always where I started. I think for many businesses during covid, Instagram was the place that everyone was, and everyone was shopping and finding new brands, so it felt naturally the right place to start. But I'd say over time I'm maybe spending a bit more time on TikTok and, um, using Pinterest as well. Uh, so they, Pinterest has a bit of a, a longer term strategy behind it, so you don't always see sales straight away, but I, I do see traffic to my website through my Pinterest posts. Um, and TikTok is, Yeah, is I'm still trying to work that one out. I'm posting and trying to. Get followers. And I, I definitely see, I'm seeing views on my videos, whether that's translating into sales, I would say, I'm not sure at the moment, but what I'm reading and what I'm listening to, um, it, it takes a bit of a, it's a longer term strategy. You don't always see instant results from it. Um, also email marketing, which is a big one. Um, it talked about a lot. What, So getting people onto your, your newsletter. I do monthly email out about product hack, Sorry, not product hack about parenting hacks. So it's not marketing specific, it's more to do with parenting. And I also recommend podcasts in it. So I use that to try and engage with my audience. And, um, I've done some giveaways to try and get more people onto my email list. And again, I'm, it's early days, I think it's working. I have seen a few sales off the back of emails, so that gives me a sign that. It's just kind of being front of mind to people. Cuz I certainly find myself that I might see a product online that I like, but I'm not, I don't need it right now. Or maybe it's a gift, but I don't have anyone to buy for it now. And I used to save things in Instagram, um, and I go back to them, but I am more and more realizing that e marketing also works for me. So, although I used to think, Oh, I don't like getting emails, and they're really annoying, I also realize how often I find myself on a website because I've got an email and that quite often links to sales. So I'm trying to use that thought process and not send so many marketing emails that I'm annoying people, but just like occasional marketing orca or my monthly, um, hack email. Just so that you're front of mind. So when they're, they do have a gift to buy or, um, they're having a problem with keeping their socks on, that you're the brand that they think of first.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:15

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think also that lots of um, lots of sort of expectant moms start looking around for baby products as well. I mean, I certainly did, but you don't necessarily buy it because you don't need it then. But you are very receptive to finding out what products out there and what you might need. But it might be a good, I dunno, anywhere up to a year before that actually is a product that you need to buy. So I guess it makes sense that not everyone who sees your marketing is gonna be in a position to buy right then. Yeah, absolutely. And also think it makes sense what you say about figuring out what works, because I guess if you've been in business now for 10 months, that it's quite a long time. But it also isn't, I think it takes a while, doesn't it, to figure. What works, what doesn't work, Give things a good go before realizing they don't work for you. I think marketing is just, and it changes so much as well, like how people shop and where they shop.

Claire Grant: 00:43:06

So yeah, it's, it's like, it's a whole art form and I think even within marketing there's just so many different ways, like ways you can do it. Um, and like you said, we've been going for 10 months, but a lot of like, it's only been a a month, just over a month since I've had all the stock. So that's when I've really been able to, I guess, dial up my marketing a bit more. I've been looking at doing some Facebook ads, although I'm still a bit nervous about that cause it just feels like quite a scary thing to embark on. You need to, you need to explore all avenues. Um, and, and just influencers as well. So I had some, some nice recommendations over the weekend, which I hadn't asked for. So on two different influencer sites. Um, one who had close to half a million followers had recommended my product on her stories. And I saw a huge uptake in, um, people on my website and followers. And it was like, Wow, that's amazing. I, I, I probably would've spent, I dunno, 50 to a hundred pounds on Facebook ads maybe to get the same result as just someone organically finding your brand and recommending it. So, um, that, that wasn't marketing that I'd seek out, but it, it definitely,

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:19

That is amazing. And had you sent those influences products or had they just brought them and decided to share them?

Claire Grant: 00:44:25

No, neither of them had the product. They had just heard about them. Oh, and coming to Autumn Winter when babies are taking their socks off and everyone's worried about their heating bills. Um, it seems like perfect time for my products to be talked about when moms are saying, How do you keep your baby socks on? And I think both influencers have been recommended them somewhere, I dunno, via their stories or or other, and they've posted them. Um, and then subsequently I've reached out to both to say thank you and I, I'm hoping to send them both product to try. So it's, yeah, it's all about kind of building that relationship and then, um, nurturing it from there. Cuz I think as well. Influencers particularly, it's hard to, to get that engagement at the beginning. They get, I'm sure they get so many people reaching out to them and actually having a product that they need and they want and they want to promote for you. Um, it's quite hard to find. So I was, I've felt very lucky this weekend that to have kind of fallen into my lot, which is great.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:27

Yep. That's amazing. And especially as you hadn't had to reach out to them. Cause I know lots of businesses do sort of influence outreach or post things out and hope to get features, but the fact that they found you and, and talks about you is just incredible, isn't it? Yeah. Great. You mentioned just then the time of year it's coming into autumn and people are worried about heating and saying hold. Do you have any sort of PR or anything of plans around that? Cause that seems like such a, I know, pivotal, pivotal time of year. Um, I'm trying, I would say on the pr it's another area that I had no experience in whatsoever. And it, it feels like just, uh, And, and I've said that about marketing too, but it feels like an endless, um, loop you can go into about reaching out to, to potential, um, publishers or, um, journalists who could talk about your story.

Claire Grant: 00:46:18

So yeah, I've been reaching out to them. I've not heard back on any free pr moment at the moment. I'm getting a lot of feedback that yes, we will feature your product, but you have to pay for it, which is good and bad cuz you get is that I would see that more as advertising than, than pr. Um, and I, I'm doing a bit of that. So I've got a feature going out in a magazine next month, so it'd be interesting to see how, how much I get from that. Um, but until you kind of start then it's, yeah, it's a hard one to know what the right publication, not the what the right publications, but like what the right, um, focus is like where you should be, um, putting your money.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:46:59

Definitely. And something I'm else, I'm definitely picking up on as we talking is there's so much, isn't there as a business owner that you just don't know whatever your background is, Um, there's always gonna be something that you don't have experience in that you're just gonna have to figure out as you go.

Claire Grant: 00:47:15

Exactly, yeah. And components. Yeah. And PR definitely seems to be another long term game that um, you pitch now, but it might not be the right time cuz that journalist you pitch to maybe has nothing on their, on their, um, on their range of needing a product like yours. But it doesn't mean to say that they don't need it further down the line. So it's about reaching out and then following up, um, and kind of just, there's an element of luck, but I think it's always just making sure you're front of mind as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:47:47

Yeah, I think you're right and I think a lot of it is just being consistent and same as we were talking about with lots of elements of marketing, isn't it? It's just keeping going and. You know, having faith that it will pay off, but it's not always, you know, you don't always do something this week and see the sales next week. It could be months down the line before you actually see an impact of what you're doing.

Claire Grant: 00:48:07

Exactly. Yeah. So

Vicki Weinberg: 00:48:09

I, I'm, I'll be honest, I've stopped counting. Have we got one more, um, stage that you wanted to talk?

Claire Grant: 00:48:16

Um, hi. I think that's all of them. I think I'm very much in the kinda marketing and selling phase at the moment. And when we've spoken through the different kinds of marketing that I've tried, the, the selling, I guess would be the last one. So, uh, the website has been up until now the main place that I sell my product, but I'm now looking to expand that and to, to have other points of sale, which I think is really important for any business. Cause as much as you can drive website to your traffic, sorry, drive traffic to your website, it's always gonna be easier if someone's already on another website, um, to find your product. So I'm looking to do some wholesale on online retail and also really hopeful to get into some smaller retailers in the UK There's so many amazing gift shops and baby shops, but again, that's a whole new area I'm learning about and it's, Someone said on a podcast recently that in order to get into a retailer, they have to either be expanding or another brand or product has to come off shelf to get your shelf, your product on there. And that was a really kind of big learning for me cuz I felt like with all the retailers I was reaching out to that they just weren't interested or they didn't like product. But I think it comes back to right place, right time, and they need to actually be needing a product like yours. Um, and some retailers I've spoken to said we've, we've still got so much stock from last year cuz we didn't have a good Christmas. So we're not looking to take anyone out now, but it doesn't mean in the future. Like, we can't, um, we can't talk, bring in your brand. So yeah, retail's been one, um, as well. And, and the online retailers, um, through wholesale and then also looking to do some more kind of popups in, in real life events. So I've done two up until now, very different popups. So one being, uh, it was like a kid's messy play festival and it was actually the first time that they'd done the festival. So it was. A bit of an unknown how it was gonna go, but it was, it was really, really good because it allowed me to see how to set up my stand and how I would take payment and how to talk to customers. Um, so that was the first time I'd actually sold to people face to face. Um, and since then I've done another popup in Edinburgh in the city center, which is completely different clientele cause it was mainly like tourists and people out doing their shopping. Um, but both have been great and I've had, um, good sales on both days that like more sales than I would get through my website. So every life that's definitely an area I want to do more of the popups cuz you've got the marketing element as well as the, um, and the sales element on the same at the same time. So yeah, I'd say selling is probably the last bit and um, a real focus now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:51:03

Yeah. And it sounds like you've done loads already and I could definitely see what you mean about why, you know, why you develop popups. Cause I think that while everything is increasingly moving online, people still really like to shop in person, don't they? And actually pick things up and touch them and talk to people and Yeah, definitely what we shop online for the convenience, I think particularly if it's kind of more like an impulse purchase. It's, when I say impulse, I mean something you maybe didn't know you needed, I didn't know you were looking for. I think we've all probably had that experience of. Seeing something in, you know, a market or a popup and just thinking, Oh gosh, I actually really need this and I didn't know it existed.

Claire Grant: 00:51:39

Exactly, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:51:41

And there's something really nice about being able to speak to the person behind business as well.

Claire Grant: 00:51:45

Yeah, definitely. I find that on both events and the first one being, uh, a lot of parents and other brand owners, so other kind of popup stalls. And that was good for me finding out what other popups are right there or where they'd had success. Um, and yeah, just getting used to, to talking to people again. Cause I feel with Covid and also starting a, a brand, it is, it is kind of a very solo process and you're, you're very much just alone with your laptop, um, or your phone. And there isn't always a huge amount of interaction with people. So actually getting out into doing in real life events, um, you definitely get some of that back, which is. It is really good.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:52:27

And you were talking a bit about online, other online marketplaces and mm-hmm. um, I know that recently you've got on Not On The High Street. Yes right?

Claire Grant: 00:52:36

Yes. Yep.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:52:39

I'd love to talk a bit about that. Cause I think that's huge. I know it's not an easy thing to do. Um, so would you mind talking a little bit about that? Maybe if you're, if you're comfortable to just a little bit about the process as well, because, um, I know years ago when I looked into this, it was quite difficult. I'm sure it's not any easier. So it'd be great to know a little bit about what's involves, um, how you found it so far, if that's okay.

Claire Grant: 00:53:01

Yes. Uh, yeah. So that the, Not On The High Street was another one of selling platforms or selling areas I was looking at and I felt like they were a good fit in terms of. They're brands, so things that are not on the high street and they're a bit more innovative and a bit more creative where, but they're not fully handmade. So I'd say someone like Etsy being more of like, you're handmade. I know they're not always handmade, but, um, I thought Not On The High Street was like a better fit for us and it was also a good fit in terms of the, their, their target audience. So people are quite often looking for gifts on there. And I'd say that we're, like I said before, we're, we're a very kinda gift worthy product, so that's why I chose them. My sister also has her own business and she has been on there for a couple of years and had, had really good success with them. So she was the one that said, I think you should apply. Um, and, and that's what it is actually. You, you, you do just apply at the beginning and they review your website and the, they ask you a few questions about your business and they, they came back and said that, that you've been accepted. Um, you've got a. 200 pound joining fee, which you pay to kind of create your storefront and to to get your backend system. Um, and then from there it's a bit like creating a website, but not quite as complex. But you have similar fields that you need to fill in. So you need to do your product listings and you need to create your kind of about you page and, um, all your terms and conditions. But I would say that they really hold your hand through the whole process and they, they've got a lot of resource on their website about like how you should, um, optimize your pages and, um, what works and what doesn't. And they also review your pages before. Site goes live. And so they, they came back to me and said that you need to change that image or you, we'd suggest you change this bit of text. So that's really nice, like having that feedback. Um, and they've also got a really good, I think it's called a, a CMR system and they've got that acronym wrong, but it's like they're, they're back in management system so you can go in and manage your stock and manage your lead times. And that's all very new, I believe. Like it's, um, they've changed it in the last couple of years. Um, and they also do some great events and they have like a lot of. Resource that is, is free to anyone who's on their website. So like they've got a two day workshop, uh, this week called Unlock Your Growth, and it's like loads of talks and um, and face to face meetings to, to learn about how to make your website run better, how to sell more products, how to get ready for Christmas, all these kind of things that I think's amazing. So you're, you're paying to be on the site and to sell product, but you're also getting a, a good network of people, um, and a support through, through being on there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:55:55

It sounds like the support's brilliant actually, and I think this is all, um, for what I can gather anyway, fairly new, um, it sounds like they definitely do are doing a lot to support sellers.

Claire Grant: 00:56:06

Yeah, so as well, they've just had a, a brand refresh as well. Sorry, Vicky interrupted you though. They, they've just completely redone their branding and I think as part of that, they did a, a huge piece of research into their customer and they realized that their customer was slightly different to what they thought it was. And they shared all that marketing research with their storefronts. Um, and that also was really helpful in making, uh, in how you kind of set up your pages to target that audience. Um, so yeah, overall so far it's been a good experience with Not On The High Street.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:56:39

That's really interesting. And as well as paying 200 pounds to get sort of on them and set up. Are there ongoing fees or anything? I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm just trying to get a sense.

Claire Grant: 00:56:49

No, no. Um, yeah, so they take a commission of each sale. Um, it's approximately 25%. Uh, so not as high as if you were going into, uh, A retail store, but it's, it's, it's considerable, um, margin. So you, you do need to have margin in your product be able to, to go on there. Um, but with that, you get the, uh, their pool of, uh, their target audience. They, they also quite often do marketing emails and they'll include new brands in there. So you could think like how much you would spend on putting a kind of add out to the, the number of customers that Not On The High Street has, like you do get wins, um, from, from being on the site.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:57:31

The support does sound brilliant. Cause I guess bottom line is it is in their interests for you to sell well.

Claire Grant: 00:57:37

Definitely. Yeah. And I think it also gives you brand credibility, um, to, cuz naturally if someone hears about your brand or they see it on Instagram, yes they're gonna have a look at your website. But um, I find that also people Google you and if they see that you're on a number of different places, for me in a way then it makes me think of brands more credible cuz they've got lots of points of sale rather than just their website.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:58:01

Yeah, And, and particularly Not On The High Street because not everyone can sell there. Whether it's lots of platforms like Amazon and Etsy, pretty much any business can get set up there in a couple of days and start selling, but Not On The High Street. Doesn't accept every everyone who applies. So I think that's quite nice as well because it's almost saying, Okay, somebody else has vetted this company and the products and they've decided. it's worthy of a place on here. So I think there was a little bit of prestige about being on those. You might not wanna say that but I think there is because not, I mean, when I had my baby brand years go, I remember I applied to get on the highest street and didn't get on there and they gave us lovely feedback. Um, but I know it's not a case of anyone who wants an account, it's going to get one. They are particular about who they choose, which I think is, is really good for the sellers to end up on there.

Claire Grant: 00:58:48

Yeah, definitely. No, that, that, I I didn't realize it was as hard as, as that maybe because it was accepted quite quickly, but, um, it's, yeah, so far it's been good. We've been, I've been on there for a month. Um, so yeah, we'll see how it goes, uh, coming up to Christmas.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:59:05

Well, thank you. Yeah. And I'm willing to keep me posted how you, how you do. I think it's probably a great, um, place to be in the lead up for Christmas. Cause I imagine lots of people be going there for their gifts.

Claire Grant: 00:59:15

Definitely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:59:16

So I've got one more question before we finish Claire. Cause I'm gonna be really mindful of your time. You shared so much with us. Um, you said this might be a tricky question, but what would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators? If I can hold you to one.

Claire Grant: 00:59:31

.Um, I think it would be, don't be afraid to try everything yourself. Um, I, from the outset was very set that I wanted to do every step along the way and learn about what it took to actually create a brand. And I think there's some amazing experts out there. And certainly in time I might outsource more of what I do, but I've learned a huge amount from actually having to do the marketing, the sales, the branding. Um, I've done every step along the way and I think that has definitely, um, held me in. Good stead and allowed me to make sure the brands exactly as I want it. I think sometimes when you use experts too soon, um, or you're out. Things like your branding, then it is very expensive. So it's, it's an upfront cost, but it's not always authentic to what you wanted it to be. Um, and so yeah, that would be my thing is don't be afraid to, to try everything yourself might take a bit longer, but I think it definitely pays off in the end.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:00:33

That makes sense. Thank you. And I think as well, because I'll be honest, I'm, I am personally a fan of outsourcing, but I'm also with you that it's good to start everything yourself. Cause then when you do outsource, you know exactly what you need and what you're looking for.

Claire Grant: 01:00:47

Exactly.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:00:47

Um, cause I think every part of my business that I've outsourced, I previously did do myself. Um, because yeah, I think otherwise you're in a position where you don't, you don't really know what it is that you are exactly. Need someone else to do. It's much better if you've sort of given it a go. And then yeah, you, you're much clearer on what it is you you're looking for. So it's, so that makes total sense.

Claire Grant: 01:01:08

I think sometimes for some things I've, I've started doing myself and realized that, umm, I'm useless at it and I will outsource at some point when I, when I can. But I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't actually given a try.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:01:22

And I think the other side of that is you also don't know what you're going to be good at until you try it yourself.

Claire Grant: 01:01:27

Exactly. Like my print designs at right the back of the beginning. So I had never intended to create all the, the prints for my jogger socks. But, um, here we are with, with that two years on and I don't know whether I'll do the future ones either cuz um, it probably did take me a lot longer to do them than it would've done if I'd gone to a print expert straight away. But again, I've understood the process and I think it would allow me to work a lot better with someone in the future to, to create them on my behalf.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:01:54

Absolutely. Well thank you so much for that cla for everything that you shared.

Claire Grant: 01:01:59

Thank you very much for having me. It was lovely to be on my first podcast after being such a fan of podcasts for, for so many years.

Vicki Weinberg: 01:02:07

Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalog and lots of free resources on my website, vicky weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.