Turning Party Bag Fillers into a Sustainable Brand – with Anne-Clare Ribbons – Cotton Twist

Welcome to the bring your product idea to life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hello.

So today I'm Speaking with Anne-Clare Ribbons, founder of a sustainable brand called Cotton Twist. Cotton Twist sells craft kits and gifts for kids, inspiring creativity whilst caring for the planet.

We talked today about how Anne-Clare started her business over 10 years ago with just £400 and how the business has grown since then. Anne-Clare has experienced many challenges which she kindly shares with us today, as well as many, many successes.

And this is a really interesting and useful episode. I cannot wait to introduce you to Anne-Clare. So, hi, thank you so much for being here. Can you please start by giving an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell?

Yeah, for sure. So I'm Anne-Clare Ribbons. I set Cotton Twist up ten and a half years ago.

I only know that it's a half because we've been celebrating our 10 years this year and we started out actually it's a bit cringe.

We started out with selling party bag fillers, so little bite sized crafts, trying to reduce the trash that is often thrown on the footwells of the car after a party or the stuff that mums often just sort of scoop into the kitchen at the bin. So that's how it started with these tiny little bite sized packs.

I can't actually vouch for the fact that we were 100% plastic free at the start, but we've become increasingly sustainable so there was, there was always an emphasis on, on it being sustainable and imaginative. So there were those two things. But I think increasingly we embrace the sustainable side to things.

And then from those bite sized packs which were party bag fillers, then those were used as stocking fillers or wedding day activities or rainy day activities.

And from there we were noticing people were buying multiple packs and then the kind of gifting range led on from there and now, yeah, we have multiple ranges. Always trying to slim them down because I've always got loads more ideas and yeah, we sell all over but I'm sure you'll come on to that.

Definitely. Yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you. So you've kind of explained how you got well, why you got started.

I guess it was maybe a bit of overwhelm around so much rubbish turning up in party bags. Which I can definitely relate to. So tell us a little bit about how you got started.

So how did you go from I'd like to do something about this to having a business doing just that?

In some ways, there are some businesses which are possibly a little bit more accessible in terms of starting out, and this was probably one of them. And the other part of this is I. Well, let me go backwards.

I'll try and summarize this, but at my neighbour's house, I saw a party bag years and years ago when my kids were tiny and a friend of a friend had made this pack. And so she'd had some beads and a little cellophane bag washi taped onto a piece of cardboard.

And then she had a different one with a poppy seed head saying, grow this. And so, yeah, handwritten instructions. And that was the moment when I thought, oh, wow, that's really clever.

So I then met this woman and said, to cut a long story short, why don't we do this together? And we did do this together for like two and a half, three years. But our personalities were totally incompatible. She's very.

She was lovely, but I was like, this has. I need to earn money. So actually we then went our separate ways. So that was how the idea started. So.

But back to your original question, how do you start it? Actually, it was quite organic.

So I just went nuts researching ideas that could fit this formula and I could source the components relatively cheaply. Now, that didn't mean at the time that they were CE tested.

I didn't even know what CE testing meant, for example, and I put in £400 and the other partner put in £400. So we were able to just grow organically from that. We didn't earn any money for the first year.

And the key actually at the time, because we were just effectively any monies, we got in from orders, actually, we collaborated with a party company so they would recommend us take a cut and not on the high street. And without that money in those early days to reinvest, I'm not sure how we would have done it. So it was.

It was grafting and lots of ideas and obviously trialing. But the components were cheap.

So it's not like setting up a shoe brand and having to, like, make massive commitments, especially something like shoes where you've got to get different sizes and different colors. You know, we had components and the other thing that we did was we use components from one pack into another. So there was a massive overlap.

But having said that, you know, we're doing A rebrand now. And I've just bought, I think it's 91,000 cards. But back in the very early days, we used to print those on a printer and hand guillotine them.

So just to make ends meet. Because we were effectively, we were sort of dabbling. But I meant business, I wanted to make money.

But we, you know, I think there are other industries where you can grow quite organically. For example, a jewelry brand or, you know, something like that.

But if you're doing a product like shoes, to use that example again, or let's say, yeah, beauty. And you've got to get testing and you've got to get factory space and you know, that's a whole different ball game.

So mine was incredibly accessible and then reinvesting from there effectively.

So it sounds like you were very hands on. So you and your partner at the time are doing a lot of this yourself, is that right? Were you sort of putting packs together and.

Oh, God, yeah, yeah, just doing it all. Did the whole thing. And I was so stubborn. I was like, we can't get any help.

Which has probably ultimately always been my downfall is that I, I just, I just thought I was superhuman and that I could do everything. And therefore it's hard to grow, isn't it? When you're. You can't let, when you can't let go, you can't grow. So, oh no, we did everything.

And staff who come in now are like, oh, God, this bit is so laborious. Or. And I'm like, you guys should be so grateful for what, you know, I give you now. Like, we used to hand cut those or not hand cut.

We used to cut stuff like little die cut machines. And then we bought a laser about three years in and we used to put all these little.

We used to stack these little parts and then we used to slide them into their little envelopes. And now we have special cards where you punch the shapes out so, you know, it's all done for them. And they're like, God, this bit's laborious.

I'm like, you don't know. You're born, you're like, this is easy. So, yeah, one of the missions has been to make things less labor intensive as well.

Um, but at the beginning you've got no option. So it's like gonna make this work. Um, so, yeah, I do laugh. It's really good to look back and laugh at the crazy, crazy things that I used to do. Yeah.

But you say about getting help, and you're right, I do believe you need help. To grow. However, I also believe that in the early days, as you did, it's good to be hands on. It's good to do it yourself.

It's good to work out the process and what works and what doesn't work, and also to just, as you say, save that money as well.

I was interested when you said you didn't pay yourself for the first year because I think that's something not many people talk about, is that it can take a year or longer before you're earning the type of money that you can afford to pay yourself. But I think sometimes, I mean, I.

Myself every month since that. But I think I'm quite lucky. I think a lot of people have months where they're like, it's just not working this month, I can't pay myself.

But yeah, nothing for the first year. Sorry, I've completely interrupted your train of thought.

No, you haven't at all.

I was just gonna say I think, I think it's wor is worth talking about that though, because I think there's an expectation that you're going to start a business and the money's going to come rolling in.

But actually I had someone on the podcasts a while ago actually talking about the fact that her belief is that you don't take any money out for as long as possible because then you've always got something to reinvest and you can grow. And I, yeah, I think I agree with that.

Yeah, I mean, it did get a little bit demoralizing by the end of that first year because you slogged. And also my kids were a lot younger then. Yeah, I was, I'd had my third child and so she was a baby. She was sort of six weeks when I.

We dabbled with the idea. And then when she was born, that's when I started in earnest. Well, when she was about six weeks, I was like, right, here we go.

This is my opportunity to prove that I don't need to go and work for someone ever again.

That's funny. That's exactly when I started my first business. I had a products business when my daughter was six weeks old. Exact same timing.

And again, it was that it was thinking, I don't want to keep trading time for money. And yeah, having someone else dictate when.

I work and where I work. Yeah, but I mean, what you don't realize is that then you're just giving yourself a passport to work all the time.

Yeah. And hours, you know, perhaps you're working hours may be a bit more unsociable. Than you would like. And there's other. There's always.

Yeah, there's pros and cons.

You know, there's pros and cons, as you say, you've got that ultimate flexibility, but it's always there. You're on holiday, you're not, you are on holiday, but you're not, you know, pros and cons.

So coming back to getting started. So I know that lots of people believe they need some sort of investment to start, but I'm.

From what I've read about you, you've managed to grow your business without getting any outside funding at all. So what do you think helped you to do that?

Being totally nuts. You've just got to be so driven.

And I think we were lucky because you can't, you can't scale it up and you can't get the quantities in that you need until you've got cash.

But the biggest, what could have been my downfall is if I'd had cash and I bought the wrong stuff and I hadn't tested the market, then I could have been sat on a pile of stuff that I couldn't shift. So that organic kind of growth was perhaps one of the reasons why, you know, we, we weren't wasting money on stuff that wasn't work.

I mean, listen, we had stuff that has been an absolute nightmare to sell where we had to, because you have to start committing. There's a point where you have to go, okay, right, get this cut for us. Or, you know, remember our first die cut job?

And yeah, it seemed like such a big deal. And we researched and we researched.

Yeah, I think, yeah, just grafting and really just that that period at the beginning is really understanding your market and understanding what people like. Like the things that I like and love that I might think would be a bestseller. I still get it so wrong. And we're always shocked.

Even now we're trying to make products based on ideas that work. I'm doing free stuff on Instagram and actually that's been really insightful because I can see the types of things that people like.

So, yeah, you don't want to spend too much too quickly on a product that, you know, everything had to be flexible. Actually it was, it was about small quantities responding to people. Do your research rather than getting all that money.

You know, I wouldn't have known where to start. But mine was, like I said, it was very accessible in terms of price point.

I did once go into Starbucks when we had an order because orders were obviously very lumpy and it was A magic wand. And at the time we used a coffee stirrer and we'd run out and I ran into Starbucks and I maybe wrapped a small handful of coffee stirrers.

But yeah, we were lucky. But I think it's good. Don't. Don't go like a bull in a china shop. You know, if you're.

If you're launching a beauty product and you've got to go a lot larger than I went, but, you know, you want to hone it down. I have a couple of SKUs. That ultimately makes it hard if you've only got a couple of SKUs, you know, once you've.

But test the market first, you know, it's. It's difficult to know. It's really difficult to know what people are going to respond to.

And all, like I say, with all the knowledge that we have, we're still surprised at what, what people respond to.

That's really interesting.

We should be. We should be better at it than we are. We're getting better, but you just never know.

You like, we've got best selling peg dolls and then we make a cow or. No, we made. Well, we made a cow and a pig and I was like, pigs, people go wild for p. There's like Percy pig and no one wants a pig.

Like, no one wants a pig. They all want a fox and they want. I'm just looking at them in front of me here.

They want a fox and they want like superheroes and stuff, but they don't want that. And we, we tried like using historical characters like Emmeline Pankhurst and Einstein. Nobody wants them. So, yeah, it's just testing the market.

You never know. And yeah, like I say, something that works doesn't necessarily.

A format that works doesn't work in all themes or, you know, so we try and kind of work out why things, you know, is it because actually a pig is for a younger audience. By the time they're using our products, they're three, four years old.

So maybe they've grown out of pigs and they're more into superheroes, you know, so we're always, you know, you live. You learn that. Our wastage is very low, though, because we, like I say, we're able to use components across different lines. So.

Which fits for the sustainability piece, which is great. Great for me because it's sustainable and we don't have a lot of waste, so.

But yeah, although we are rebranding, which we're minimizing waste to the best of our ability, but it's costly. But we have to do it because we started out purely as an online brand and it's become increasingly bought into stores.

So what looks great, you know, you can market a product for a website. You've got eight images, you've got different information, you've got descriptions.

But then what we found was we had a pack and it didn't really say what the hell was going on or we had a box and it's just not enough information. And we didn't want to have like, see through cellophane windows on the boxes or the packs so you could see what's inside.

Because we were anti plastic. We do have competitors that do do that, but with, you know, staying true to our values. And so, yeah, a lot of the rebrand. Well, two reasons.

One, you have a logo designed at the very beginning, but you don't know who you are. So that's one of the reasons for the rebrand. And then the second reason is to really improve the point of sales in store.

It's a bonus as, I mean, it's nice. It will be. It's going to be a better product for our retail customers who, you know, are direct to consumer customers.

So, yeah, there is obviously a bit of waste, but we're lucky to be in a. Well, lucky, unlucky. Some people, like, why did you set up a business with millions of people components? I'm like, I don't know.

Oh, that. Oh, that's already interesting. I'm thinking now where. Where do I want to go there? There's different things I want to ask you about.

Definitely different avenues. We're going to come back to sort of starting in stores and sort of how you're on that side of the business.

But let's talk a little bit about sustainability. I've got a broader question, but before that, I'm curious and this is just a question for me. I haven't planned this one.

But when you're talking about being able to reuse components, do you. Are your products made and then sold or sold and they're made.

I'm asking that just because I'm genuinely curious about how that works because you have such a big range.

So what do you mean?

You mean like, so I mean, because, say, for example, you have something.

So, for example, do you put the products together based on what's selling, what's already selling, or do you sort of make however many of a certain pack and hope that it sells? Does that make sense?

Oh, I see. Yeah. So we. I understand you now.

I'm just. I'm Just. I'm just curious. I know it's a strange question, but I just. I'm just quite interested.

Yeah. So, because we control all the production we. We make, so we buy components in.

So, for example, there might be a unicorn bead, but that would sit in a pack, a mini tin and a box, and actually a larger tin, like in. It's in four different formats. So what we're not doing is committing which format that bead will sell in.

So we have sort of residual stock levels on everything. And sometimes, like this morning, I've come in and we're under on eight lines. So those eight lines will be the first thing to be made today.

So we don't carry, like, high stock levels of finished products.

We have high stock levels, ideally of components, so that if we had a random big order for a thousand unicorn boxes, then obviously that's no problem. And it's not like we're unpicking the packs and the tins to find the beads. So we're very much responding to orders and carrying low stock levels.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what I wondered. I know it was a strange question, but I was just thinking about the fact that there must be so many components that fit across so many products.

That's actually quite a challenge.

Yeah. I was doing spreadsheets all of yesterday, trying to get my head straight. Yeah, it's. It's a challenge, but it's also amazing because. Yeah.

Because you don't know what you're going to sell. So we just have. Yeah. Like I say. Good. My job is to make sure that the. I'm planning out all the components and getting those in place.

But, you know, I've had a pain now where I ordered something and now I'm gonna have to. You know, you can't always. You don't always get it right. But, you know that we. We've had some hair. Oh, God.

We have hairy moments where we have had to unpick stuff to make. Make another order work. But you know what? There's. Where there's a will, there's a way. And out of every crisis, we've made it work.

And I think we've hardly ever delayed people or they don't know what the hell's going on in the background. You know, some things are so straightforward and then other things just chaos and, you know, you're going around in circles. But, yeah, no, it's.

It's good. But it. Yeah. Come a sort of Monday morning during Christmas, it's carnage because there'll be loads of Lines that are under.

And then it will be the busiest dispatch day of the year. So the Mondays in November and December are hard, but it's fun as well because those are your best days.

Well, thank you for being so honest.

You do get home and come collapse.

Well, thank you for being so honest about that as well, because I think sometimes people look at a business ten and a half years on and think everything must be easy and everything. You know, I. I think there is sometimes that misconception. So thank you for being honest about that.

I'd actually really like to know, were there ever any moments, sort of up until now, where you thought, oh, my gosh, I can't do this, or this isn't going to work, Perhaps there'd be multiple moments.

Multiple. There are. I'm very stubborn, though probably the most dramatic was Covid. I thought that parties were obviously dwindling and then switched off.

But luckily we had formed that gift market. We were leaving our office and due to move into a new one and my landlord wasn't playing ball with me. I said, can we review on a monthly basis?

And he said, no. So I went on the school run. My husband had said, why don't we hire a van? This morning I went on the school run.

The parents there who know everything about the business were like, yeah, I think he's right, get in a van. And we emptied out the office, literally days before lockdown. We didn't know whether the Royal Mail were going to collect.

I thought the business was over and I had three kids and my youngest at the time was in reception year, so I knew I was going to have to be relatively hands on. So he brought it home whilst we were messing around. I was like, I don't want to pay a hefty rent if I've got no money coming through the door.

I couldn't have been more wrong. It was right to leave the office in some ways because he wasn't very nice. We don't like him.

I've got a much better landlady now and I couldn't have predicted that it would go nuts. So marketplaces went nuts. Return on ad, spend on Meta and Google went nuts.

People were gifting the packs as like with the stores being shut, the direct gifting went like that and people were gifting craft kits because of homeschooling and we couldn't keep pace. It was the first time and I found this really hard because we were getting up at like 5 in the morning to dispatch. My husband was helping.

Then my kids would wake up, they would help. And then at 9 o', clock, we'd like, be logging on for homeschooling.

I would then be collecting components up around the house and driving them around the streets to the two remaining staff, because I'd lost. A lot of people were au pairs at the time, and I'd lost all of them. They'd gone home and I'd be driving components down the street.

And then those two staff were, you know, it was hell for them. They were like in their homes making kits and then loading them out onto the street as I loaded them.

The new batches keeping 2 meters apart all the time. And then I'd prep the. I'd be making as well. I'd be prepping at night. And then we had to work seven days a week to do it.

And the key thing, I was having to switch orders off. And I've never turned business away, and that nearly killed me. But I looked like walking dead.

I mean, I was, like, deranged and trying to keep the kids sorted. So that was probably the hardest, but did. But it wasn't like I wanted to give up. It was actually, in some ways, one of the things that propelled me.

Which is nuts, isn't it, because Covid was a lottery. It's like you wake up one morning, there's a pandemic, and your business is either like, you know, sink or swim.

And you didn't know, through no fault of your own, you didn't know which camp you were going to wake up in. Right. And. And I wake up in the swim camp and, yeah, I've never worked that hard.

Still sometimes, I mean, I said to people, like some people, I'm still quite traumatized because of the intensity of having the kids and trying to keep it going. And that's my stubborn streak.

But I think there's probably a stubborn streak in many entrepreneurs because you've got to fight and you've got to respond to those knocks. This wasn't a knock. There have been other knocks where you've got. I mean, actually, I've thought of one.

The postal strikes at peak season a couple of years ago. That was rough because you're like, you do all that work for Christmas, you take 60% of your revenue in those months, whatever, 60, 70%.

And it's that thing where it's totally out of your control, and that is really demoralizing. Stuff like Trump and the tariffs at the moment, you know, we're in no man's land. A lot of people in the same boat.

We rely massively on America, but we just keep on, you know, you just keep on going and, like, nothing's been clear, so you're just sort of finding your way. We're all finding our way. And one staff member said, oh, I think we should set. Switch Etsy off until. Until it's all sorted.

And I went, no, we're not switching it off. Let's just find our way. This method isn't. We have to manually go back to each customer and collect duties because the system can't do it yet.

But even if they didn't pay the duties, I'm still better off taking the order than not having that customer. So, you know, we've just got to. We're just finding our way.

Stuff like that's really hard, though, when it's like, you work, you work so hard to set things up and then you've got cost of living. You. You can't put your prices up, but your clients can't afford it.

So you, you know, you need to put your prices up, but you can't, you know, the Royal Mail shut down. We tried every day, I tried different ways to make that work, but we lost a lot.

I mean, overall, it was Christmas and it was good, better than, you know, a normal month, but it wasn't what it should have been, so. But the knocks make you stronger. And what I tend to do now, and the pattern that I see in myself is that I will be knocked down by it.

I'll be crushed, I'll be knackered, I'll rant, I'll tell my husband three times the same story, and then he'll be like, go to bed. And I'll be like, okay, it's that moment I just need to go. And then I'll wake and I'll just be like, I can't do this anymore.

And then I'll wake up in the morning, I'll be like, right, okay, and come back. So. And actually, the knocks have proved to lead to good things.

One being someone copying me a few years ago actually led to me resurrecting a price bracket, another price bracket within the ranges, which was actually perfect timing because of cost of living.

So we did have, like our small packs with one activity, and then we had a box with 10, and then we put in a tin with five, because I wanted to compete with her, because I couldn't. My husband's an IP lawyer. He couldn't, he couldn't make any traction with Etsy, where she's. She was selling, is selling. So we were.

I was like, right, okay, you copy me. I'm gonna play you at your own game. And that was like the light bulb moment. I was like, what. What am I gonna do with this frustration?

And that's when it came to me. So I wasn't copying her. I was going, I need that price point again.

And I had had it originally, but we'd taken out because we thought it would be better to have a higher price point with the box. But now we have everything. And then that's. That's great because actually we're seating more budgets that people have got at the moment.

So, yeah, I don't know, maybe one day there'll be something that knocks me over, that I'm like, I can't fight anymore. But you. Do you sometimes feel like you're going out to battle?

Yeah, it's hard.

Yeah. Because you don't, you know, and there are things, certain things go wrong and you're like, ah. Or, you know, but, yeah, just gotta keep.

Keep fighting. Yeah. Trump's our current one.

Yeah. It's a challenge.

We're not alone, and there are people a lot worse off than us. And the thing that the UK has got at the moment, by the way, this could change, like, within a couple of hours of me saying it. We're on 10% tariffs.

The removal of the de minimis is an absolute disaster. But, hey, it's 10% and Europe is 20%. The rest of Europe's 20%.

So, okay, you know, and these small creative businesses, I just feel are particularly concentrated in the UK and Europe. So are the Americans just going to stop buying? Probably not, because then they lose quite a lot of their shelves. A lot of food products here.

But there's so much creativity and beauty and, you know, that I feel like there's more of these micro businesses and the, the online marketplace sort of trade show, marketplace Fair, which. I don't know if any other of your podcast people have mentioned Fair, but that's been a game changer for us. And I think that Covid also made Fair.

You know, they were. They were a swimmer in Covid because people weren't physically able to go to Top Draw or Spring Fair.

I've never exhibited at a fair ever, because at the point that we were starting to do more wholesale. Yeah, Covid hit and we joined Fair at the right time. And that's just opened so many doors for us. So there you go.

That's like, you know, who would have thought that the pandemic would make me grow, get me onto a trade show website. You know, marketplace, you know, you could never have predicted.

And as some marketplaces have dipped or disappeared, then this one has been incredible. But obviously there's challenges with it because of the margins and cost of living. But yeah, sometimes the bad can turn good.

Yeah, that's all really interesting and I'd like to talk a little bit more now about your growth. So I know that you're stocked globally, so first of all, tell us where, you know, where your.

Where your products are stocked now, as in which countries, which marketplaces? Maybe not all of them. So there's quite a list.

No. So within the uk, we're in hundreds and hundreds now of gift stores, farm shops, museum stores, anything like an ice cream shop, you know, like.

Honestly, it's far and wide, I suppose anything where there's children coming through a door and our major sort of retailers.

Just before the pandemic, I started working with the National Trust that then died during COVID so there were some things because they're, you know, their historic buildings were shut, there was no market there. So swings and roundabouts. But then since COVID obviously we've built up a really good relationship with them and we are in John Lewis.

We work with the English heritage quite a lot, so there's some bigger guys and then a lot in the States, but lots of small guys in the States and that's the same across the world. So we send as far as New Zealand, Australia and New Zealand and we have a massive concentration in Taiwan. Don't know why, but it seems to work.

They're great.

Europe a bit.

We need to grow that one. I suppose originally, maybe people thought with the language because all our instructions were written in English, it's not something we can work on.

But it doesn't seem we sell well to people. There's something sort of semi obvious about. About it as well.

So you could probably just take a picture and put it into ChatGPT nowadays and get a translation. So I don't think that that's a reason. I just think actually the Europeans are really.

The rest of Europe's super creative and they've probably got more options themselves and without having to import in from the uk. Oh, yeah, we have actually quite a few Swiss people. Swiss stores, German and Swiss mostly.

Spain's a nightmare to sell to because the duties, that's chaos. We've had to shut that one. It's the only one I've ever shot. It was just too laborious. They couldn't then afford the duties on the way in.

So, yeah, we're Everywhere. And my friends get annoyed. Sometimes they'll pick up a pack in a shop and black. Oh, you're here as well.

So it's very nice when clients and people on Instagram send a picture. Although I get my imposter syndrome. Then I'm like, oh God, maybe it's rubbish because it's still on the shelf.

No.

Oh my God, you can't. So it's like, you can't win, can you? Because like, I'm like, oh, it's amazing it's going in that store. Then I'll get nervous that they won't sell it.

And some stores don't sell our stuff. Well, it really depends whether they have a big enough range, how they merchandise it. So sometimes it really just.

And the clientele, it just works and other times it just doesn't. And you've got to be thick skinned because no products meant to be everywhere.

So, yeah, and I would love to know how have you got this? How are, how you got to the point where you're stocked in so many places? I think for everyone listening, I mean, that is a dream, isn't it?

Being stopped stocked globally. Is it all been by a fair or have you done something else for.

The, for the international stuff stuff? We did bits and pieces abroad before fare, but fair made that relationship really easy.

So although we obviously pay a commission if the client's not known to us in terms of collecting payments, so we don't chase on a payment, we don't get our payment for a while because we choose to wait the 30 days or whatever it is. We could get the money sooner but we'd have to pay a cut on that and it's not worth it.

Fair really opened that up, they made it, they took the, they took the logistical sting out of it. So it's worrying times. I mean they're, they're doing brilliantly. They've got wait lists of people, you know, to join and everything.

But you know, for them, you know, big business now and that, you know, things like Trump and not knowing, you know, they're representing people like me, like, but not just UK companies all over Europe and well, let's say in Switzerland and those Swiss brands, the tariffs are absolutely nuts. So then that wipes out those, you know, flows for them.

Mostly fair for the global stuff in terms of the UK and the big retailers, I think it's often socials and things like that. I never, we never approached anyone and we know, like I say we didn't, we'd never done a trade fair.

So I think sometimes you've just got people following. Obviously you don't know who they are because they're under their private names and they'll say, yeah, I've been following you for a while.

I'm like, oh God, what have I said? But yeah, it's unknown actually on the big guys, but I've never approached any.

Oh, that's really interesting. It's all come to you.

Yeah, but it could also be another, another source for that is not on the high street because press, I mean, not on the high street isn't having its finest moment now because I think the world's changed in terms of that marketplace model. So when I started people didn't have such a voice on social media. But not just social media.

Advertising used to be like Tatler messaging you and, and spending 250 quid for a tiny little thing on a page that no one read. Well, I say that that's maybe a bit harsh, I don't know. But I mean when we did do ads, we did a couple of ads like that.

We did like Angels and Urchins, which was like a parenting magazine in London. Absolutely nothing from it that traditional for us, useless.

But then suddenly I'm trying to think when we started doing meta ads, it was when we were in our first office, so probably about six, seven years ago. And then we've been doing ads ever since.

So now we've got me as a small business, I've got a voice so I can talk on social media, I can, you know, raise my profile like that or I can do ads.

So then that marketplace model becomes a little bit more redundant because at the time when I started out it was like, wow, look at all these amazing creative businesses all under this one roof. But I think people now know more about these small businesses. They might know that I sell so they wouldn't go to. Not on the high street necessarily.

And a lot of people are loyal to the small business seller themselves and so they know that I will make more money if they come direct to me. Then again, the big giants of like the Etsy's of the world, I mean we have seen a dip on there as well.

We actually get a lot of international traffic on there or used to before Trump. So again, it's that American market often seeing these kind of small creative businesses. Yeah, swings and roundabouts.

Yeah. Things change a lot, don't they? I guess if you look back over the last 10 years, things change an awful, awful lot.

Yeah. I mean what propelled me in the first place is now sinking.

And the key thing is always, always it's really, really, really hard to do because if you're having a really great time on a specific marketplace, you're like, brilliant, I'll put my feet up. She'll not. But you know what I mean.

But you can never be complacent and you've always got to spread your bets across different channels because you never know how. You know, you know you're on Etsy. But I don't control that algorithm.

You know, we subscribe to something called Marmalead, which is supposed to make our listings a plus plus or whatever. So we tweak our listings. We do, but still it's out of our control.

Whereas if I make my listings on my site, I advertise, I do my social media, I'm more in control of that. Obviously the algorithms on socials are difficult and I've spent way too many hours trying to work that one out. But you've always got that.

You know, I've got that. And that's why I have tried really hard to build a following because people look at that and they, they do go, oh, okay, you must be established.

I always say to people, follow account does not equal revenue. That is not an insight into a business. But in terms of reputation, it helps.

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

So people, so probably retailers as well, will check me out now on Instagram. And we also approach people from Instagram rather than a cold email because no one likes, no one really likes a cold call.

Well, no one likes a phone call. That's the worst email. Bit better. I always say to people, if they call me, I'm like, just put it in an email because then I can do it in my own time.

But yeah, we often use Instagram to message a store. Sometimes it works. Doesn't work, you know, but that's the, you know, that's the roller coaster that it is.

You win some, you lose some, and, you know, you have to put the effort in. And I'll put effort in for like bespoke jobs and not get anything. And then I'll get a really good one out of nowhere.

So it's just keeping bashing away. But yeah, it's changed. So never put your eggs in one basket.

But something slightly annoying was I dialed into a call and she was really nice lady trying to help people navigate the de minimis removal because we were given a month, less than a month's notice, usual story. And she said, you know, the thing is, guys, you shouldn't Put your eggs in one basket.

With a marriage, you know, if, you know, you could have put too many, you know, you could have, you know, you should have diversified. And what about thinking about this country?

And it's like, right for the people on the call, it was like, it's hard because when you're in it and your sales start going nuts in America with the best one in the world, you know, you're going to take that money and it becomes a bigger percentage and it is a job, you know, you're trying to satisfy the demand from those clients alongside trying to make sure you're keeping other markets open and opening up new markets. But it was just quite galling to be sat and have someone told you, tell you, oh, you shouldn't have put all your eggs in one.

You know, when you're in it, when you, when these people were like in the thick of it going, what? So it's going to cost $80 to send a package, like send a greetings card and people's lives are falling apart and the US is a really captive market.

They really, they love the stuff from here.

You know, like, think of all the Etsy, I mean, like, for the really tiny micro cottage businesses on Etsy, sending across to the US every single day, it's hard to then be told, oh, you've, you know, it's, it's, I think it's one of the harshest lessons because, yeah, when you're, you know, when you're in your heyday, you know, I get worried like, oh, God, have we seen our peak on fair? Are we gonna have to diversify again? But, yeah, that's my job, to keep diversifying.

I've got some major risks coming up in terms of where we're selling. So.

Yeah, yeah, I'd say, yeah. Brief, definitely brief. Oh, well, thank you so much. I have taken up so much of your time.

You've been so generous with everything you've shared with us. Can I ask one final question before we finish? So what would your number one piece of advice be for other product businesses?

And I know there's a lot to choose from.

Product businesses. I think like I said earlier, just test the market. Talk to people, not just your friends, because they can be honest. Your friends. Right.

But not always. Some of them are too nice. Test the market.

Don't go crazy at the beginning, like I say, with investments and thinking, because what you love and what you like doesn't necessarily translate. And you've got to find your tribe. Right. So you're trying to put Two things together. You're trying to get the perfect product. Product.

And you've got to market it to the right people. And yeah. Don't. Yeah. Spreading your. Spreading your bets as well. In terms of products, like I've just said. So I probably already said it. Yeah.

Just don't assume that what you. Honestly, I think some products, I'm like, oh, that's amazing. I've nailed it. I'm like, I've really got it now and then. Total flop. Total flop.

Done it twice this year. Total flop. I'm like, what I thought. And those are ones actually where I thought I'd done my due diligence and done my research. So who knows?

I don't know. Don't go all out. Talk to people. Yeah. Get feedback. And clients like reviews too.

I think clients like the face of the business, knowing who's behind a business. And clients also respond to reviews. So those would be other two other tips. Really trade off those.

They don't work on social media, like on an organic post. It will get. It will flop. But in terms of ads and mail marketing and pinning them to your social media, it doesn't matter if they get bad views.

For me, social media is about. I give people what they want a bit, which is the free crafts and then I'll slot it.

I have to sort of more casually slot in that we actually sell stuff, which, you know, makes some people unfollow. But I have to do a little bit of sales. Of course. Of course. Yeah. But it's hard when you get. No.

As soon as you mention a product that you've made, everyone's like, tumbleweed. And then you send them something free and they're like, whoa, let's save that. I love that. Yeah. And it's just.

I always say to my kids, it's about finding a passion and hard work. So I said, you know, my kids are now sort of A levels GCSE and one's a bit younger.

But I'm like, the best thing that can happen to you is for you to find something that you're passionate about. That's what. That's what you need to find.

Because in those dark days and when Trump does whatever and, you know, Covid hits or something hits, and it's not what you thought. You've got to have that passion to keep going. And it's tough out there. I'm on like that by Women Built Group.

I don't know how much you know about Buy Women Built a lot, actually.

We've actually interviewed Maddie from By Women Built for the podcast.

Amazing. She's lovely. We're putting all their logos onto all our new packaging, actually.

But anyway, in my inbox, I'm getting in, you know, emails every day saying, actually, not every day, but a couple this week. Sadly, people going, enough can't do this anymore. Tearing me apart.

So it is tough out there, but passion is passion and grafting, basically, I think, and a bit of luck sometimes. But I think luck comes with grafting too, because the opportunities aren't there unless you're grafting.

Somehow that makes sense.

Yeah. So, yeah, you've got to know you want to do it.

Oh, definitely, Absolutely. I think you have to be.

And I'm addicted. It's my fourth child. It drives my family mad as well, as you know, it brings joy, but it also. But my hope is that I've taught them hard work.

They've seen their mum grafting, They've grafted too. But they now try and charge me heinous hourly rates. Yeah, that's brilliant.

Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for everything we shared. I. I didn't. There was just so much to cover.

I didn't even get round to half my questions.

I know I talked too much. Sorry.

No, but there's a lot. There's a lot to share and that's brilliant. Honestly, there's nothing.

There's nothing worse than someone who just gives one word answers, is there, on a podcast. So let's face it, we need to. This is meant to be a chat, so everything you've shared has been so interesting, so valuable. Thank you so, so much.

That is a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. Right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.