How to make a family business work – with Lily Llewellyn

Welcome to the Bring youg Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Hi.

And today on the podcast, I'm speaking to Lily Llewellyn. Lily helps family businesses grow as a family business and a community. So what?

What Lily does is really unique. So she works with family businesses to help them grow and thrive and work together effectively.

And in Lily's definition, family business might be what you think of as a traditional family business, or it might be a couple, it might be two or more friends. It's just people working together that have a personal relationship as well as a business one. And Lily is the expert in this.

She has so much advice for us on if you are choosing to work with someone, whether that's a family member, a partner, a friend, how to set up correctly from the outset so that business relationship and your personal relationship continues to run smoothly, what to do if you run into difficulties, the kind of things you need to be thinking about, whether you are considering this for yourself, whether you've done it before, whether you're in the middle of it, or perhaps whether you haven't even considered it. I think this is a really useful episode to listen to.

Even if working with somebody else isn't something you thought about, who knows, it might be on the cards one day.

And Lily has some brilliant advice on how to bring someone into your business and make sure that you protect both your working relationship and the interest of your business as well. So, as I say, this was a really fascinating conversation.

I had so many questions for Lily beyond the ones I prepared, because as soon as she got talking, so many more things came to mind. And I hope you find this conversation as interesting and enjoyable as I did. So I would love now to introduce you to Lily. So, hi, Lily. Thank you so much for being here.

Hey. Hello. Lovely to be here. It's so nice to talk to you.

Can you please start by giving an introduction to yourself, your business, and what you do?

Yeah. So my name is Lily Llewellyn, and I support families and couples who work together.

Essentially, a lot of my clients are in businesses together, but they might have an investment portfolio or a large amount of wealth that they need to manage, or there might be a charity. So essentially, couples and families should work together, predominantly family businesses.

Amazing. Thank you. And I think, you know that I'm so interested to talk about this topic.

So some of my previous guests have been family business businesses, and some of my clients are as well. And I'm just really interested in finding out about more about dynamics.

And I think for anyone listening who either runs a family business or perhaps is thinking about going into partnership with someone, whether that's family member or their partner, I think they're going to get some really useful advice here as well. First of all, Lily, I'd love to know what inspired you to focus. What you know, how did you get into supporting families in business? How.

How did you get in there?

Yeah, it's a great question because it's.

To me, it feels like a long story because this seed was planted when I was really little because even though I don't come from an entrepreneurial family, I do come from a family who always dreamed of being in business together and having a family business. And it was something that my family never knew how to navigate. And it always remained a bit of a dream, and it was a dream.

And I understand why families want to go into business together because if you love each other and you want to spend all your time together and actually build something that everybody can be involved in, a family business makes so much sense. So it is the dream.

My family, they did set up a business at one point, but like I said, they didn't know how to work together or really communicate or really understand what the purpose of the business was for. So after about six months, the business had completely closed. Lots of money was lost, and also the relationships had really, really taken a big toll.

So while I was a teenager at this time, that really planted a seed for me of what can go wrong in a family when a business is introduced and it doesn't work.

So as I save that planted a seed is a really particular and interesting pain point, particularly when there's very little support out there for family businesses. So that started when I was about a teenager, and then I went on and I became a family psychotherapist.

And I do have a private practice now where I exclusively support people through therapy, the therapeutic approach. I got my master's degree in therapy, and then later I trained and qualified as a business.

And it was about a year ago that I decided to put together family and business and support families who work together very much like I think my own family would have really benefited from having someone who understood family and business and who could support people in this very particular problem.

Yeah, thank you so much for Sharing your story. And I'm really sorry that things didn't work out in your family.

Tried.

And it sounds really sad as well. You know, the impact on relationships and things.

That must be really, really hard because I'd imagine that even if the business does well, there still can be challenges within the family just from running the business. Yeah, I love it. Actually, Lily, if you wouldn't mind sharing with us, I promise we'll talk about something more positive in a moment.

But it would be good to know some of the common challenges families face when they're running a business together, whether that business is thriving or whether it's struggling. Because I'm sure there's actually probably not too much difference.

Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right that the businesses who are struggling, of course, that's a really, really difficult position to be in.

And thank you for saying about my family, even though it did end well, the family really recovered as soon as that extra tension and dynamic of the business just. It just exited. It just. The business dissolved. But I think that family businesses will. They always need support, even when it is going well.

So I really appreciate what you say about a thriving family business still has its challenges and still needs support.

And for families who work together, there tends to be two main categories of things that need to be worked on, which is communication and being able to actually have difficult conversations and to be able to just work together and relate and communicate. And the second one is about governance, which is really just a fancy way to talk about the ownership of who owns what. What happens if somebody dies?

I touch wood, you know, in that, you know, nobody likes to think about someone passing away or suddenly dying or becoming ill. But of course it happens. Even if somebody gets married and has children, what then happens to the. The ownership that they have?

So conversations about communication and governance. Ownership is something that's ongoing even for those businesses that really get along together. Great question.

Thank you. And when it comes to governance, does that also include sort of who does what within the business, or is that more commander communication?

Because that's something that.

When I've interviewed family businesses or I've interviewed mums and daughters and brothers who've worked together, and something I've always been fascinated about is how do you determine who does what and who makes which decisions. Decisions. Because not everything can be joint, can it?

Even if you're working really closely together with your close family, sometimes someone has to have the final say. And that. That I think must be really, really tricky is working out what's your responsibility, what's my responsibility.

And yeah, you know, who has overall, you know, who has the overall decision on things. I think that's fascinating how those dynamics work.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And I, I sometimes say with my clients that having 50, 50 ownership, it might sound like a great idea to say, let's be equal, let's share 50, 50.

But sometimes it can lead to so many problems when actually there isn't a decision maker or someone who gets to take the lead. Even if that's just 51, 49, someone needs to be the figurehead and take the lead. So 50, 50, anybody listening?

I don't recommend it, but yeah, it is a real discussion about who will be in control of what and who will take responsibility and leadership.

And for myself and my clients, it really is a conversation about people's strengths and what they're, what they're skilled at, what they're talented at, but also what do people actually care about? Because I sometimes meet people who are on paper the most qualified.

The obvious choice, they might be, you know, papered up with MBAs and all sorts, but they actually don't want to be in the business. And it might be the real arty cousin or brother who you would not immediately think would want a CEO role or leadership role, but actually they do.

And that's the best person, the person who cares and who's good and interested. But no, it always is a conversation and I have to emphasize this is a conversation that changes over time.

So the roles and job descriptions, like any good employer would be reevaluated, looked at. And so it is an ongoing conversation all the time.

Thank you. And does it get more complex based on how many people are within the business? Because I know that obviously some businesses.

Could be just be two people.

In fact, I think everyone I've had on here has just been two people running a business together. However, there must be, I imagine, just larger family businesses and also businesses that are family businesses.

Perhaps they have people employed that aren't family members. So I guess that brings a different dynamic as well.

Yeah, yeah, it really does.

I, I, you absolutely hit the nail on the head about the, the different sizes will matter because you've got, I like to think of a family business divided up into three parts. You've got the family, you've got the, the business, and you've got the ownership. And somebody might be involved in all those three areas.

There might be a family member who has ownership and they actually work in the business, but you might have a non family member who just works in the business. And that is all. So yeah, indeed, it can get more complex as things evolve.

For my work, I really straddle that intersection between family and business.

But of course, as I say that, well, as you rightly point out, if that involves non family members of staff, then they're involved too and it's important to care about every moving part. I don't know if that answers the question actually, but no, it, it does.

Because I think it sounds like there's never going to be a black and white answer. And I'm sure every business you work with is completely different.

What I would actually really like your take on, Lily, is what do you think are some of the unique strengths that you see in family run businesses?

Because I would love to talk about some of the positives because we're making it sound very complicated and I'm sure it is and we can talk more about things people can do, but I would love to know some of the strengths.

Yeah, some of the strengths. I'm glad you mention it because I think that it's something that I love to talk about as well.

You know, for it to be, you know, optimistic about family businesses because there is so much doom and gloom out there. And for anybody listening if they're in a family business or thinking about, thinking about being a family business, I say absolutely, go for it.

Because merging family, where you've got people who are absolutely committed to each other, who understand and support each other, mixing those qualities with business, it can really launch it.

Because, you know, business being in business is hard, as you and I know, Vicky, and then actually having a support system who really care, who are completely behind you and they actually know you and your strengths, you know, that can put you decades ahead. Just because if you're decades old and you've always worked with your family, you, you know, you're, you're absolutely miles ahead.

So I'd actually say the, the relationship of family members who, who care about each other is, is the superpower.

Particularly when family members, they, they agree that they're going to be committed and that they will support each other kind of brackets no matter what. And when vision and values are really aligned, it really works well.

And I often find actually with, with married couples, that tends to be a dynamic that works very well because these people have chosen to be in a relationship and they've chosen to be in business, say unlike a mother and daughter or father and son, say, who have not chosen to be in family together and they might not necessarily align. So the different type of Relationship dynamic, it can matter or it can influence it in different ways. But now it is.

There are so many strengths of family and business.

Yeah, I can definitely, I can definitely see that. And are there, do you have any advice on how you can get off to a really good start?

So let's say someone is listening now and this has been considering starting a family business because I'm assuming that there are things that if you get right from the start or maybe conversations that you have early on will ease the way a little bit in future.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I would say my recommendation is to start with questions about what is the reason of going into business together and what is the reason for the business?

What does the business want to achieve and what does that family or that couple or even best friends if really close individuals are going into business together. But what, what is wanting to be achieved through the business? Sort of what's, what's the business vehicle? Where is it taking people?

That is a really, really. That's a difficult question for any new business owner or entrepreneur to answer. It can be very difficult.

But getting that really straight of kind of what is the long term goal? What's being, wanting to be achieved here?

I think that when that's communicated and that's commitment and it's clarified and then it's decided on will really set people in good stance because everything really leads on from that, like values, the roles and responsibilities, when we agree on what we're doing, what we're talking about and what's being built. So I think that's a really good, a good starting position. And we were talking about how money is going to be spent as well.

Like if as soon as, you know there's some profits or is profit going to be reinvested, is it going to be spent or when there is profit, how is that going to be spent and how will it be divided up? Which is a conversation about ownership. But yeah, I'd say any conversation is a good one. Yeah, you can't go wrong when you talk.

That makes sense because I do. I can see that there could be problems that could arise and issues that can come up just from not having been really clear on things at the outset.

And of course for anyone listening who thinks, oh gosh, I'm in that situation, I mean, I don't think anyone should blame themselves for being there because it's hard and you don't know what you don't know. And even setting up a business on your own, there's so much you don't know at the outset. And so many things change as well.

Yes. Yeah, you're so right. The amount of changes, I mean, that I've gone through in my couple of years already is. It's outstanding.

And I think you don't exactly, as you say, you don't know what you don't know or you don't know what's going to change until you're on the move. So knowing this and just really having grace for each other is really important.

How there will be disagreements and there's nothing wrong with the disagreement. It's only when people start fighting and having a conflict over a disagreement, when things would start to be. Care is really, really needed there.

But no things changing, people disagreeing, absolute normal. Part of it. No, I think you make a great point.

So when that happens, Lily, and people disagree or there are arguments, how do you help families separate their personal relationship from what's going on in the business? Because I can see it could so easily.

You know, you work with your d and you have a fight about something, I can see how that can so easily bleed into the rest of your evening, the rest of rest of your life. Because it's, let's face it, it's just something else to argue about, isn't it? Yeah. How. How do you advise people keep it separate?

Because I can definitely see that relationships have the potential to go quite badly if things aren't handled well.

Absolutely. You're so right. Yeah, exactly.

You should say if things aren't handled properly, it really can get, you know, really destructive and relationships can absolutely be destroyed and people get cut off from each other, which is the last thing. Literally the last thing that's. That that's wanted. It's. It's really at the point of no return when that happens.

So for me, I'll always coach my clients on keep keeping it separate and having different times and places to talk about different things. So if, if, if people agree, of course. Because I have to say, just to interrupt myself here, I. I know some couples that their.

Their business is working well and they work with me, really is. Is to be very proactive and to maintain conversations. But this couple, they absolutely love their business and they talk about it all day, every day.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

To talk about business literally in bed on a night as they fall asleep, because they both agree that that works for them when who knows what kind of funky, wonderful, weird things that might work for people. So I have to make that really clear, that if it works, it works. And it's not My job or anyone's job to change what works.

But if one person does not want to talk about business or talk about shop at home, at the dinner table, then people need to be respected that there will be a boundary there. But ordinarily, a time and a place to talk about business and a time and a place to talk about work.

But I also think it's really important to know that in business, and if it's a business or if it's a charity or what, whatever kind of the operation is, so to speak, it's really important to know that those disagreements are really, really normal. Like, that's not necessarily a bad thing or a cause for concern.

When people disagree, even if it's disagreed upon, you know, passionately and people are. This is a subject that's worthwhile to then argue about, that neither person will kind of back down because they care so much that that's okay too.

It's important to know that that's a really, you know, normal, acceptable part of business. And it's also part of what. What stays in business at the end of the day.

So, you know, the door is closed, it comes home, and if there has been a wee bit of tension at work, that's okay, and it gets to stay there. And then people go home because that was the work day. I think when it. When that is a struggle to leave it there and park it, that's when help is.

That's when help's needed. When, you know, dividing becomes a struggle. Supports there.

Yeah. And I think that sounds sensible to get support if you're in that situation.

Because I can imagine that's also because what's really hard is that, I mean, you and I both work on our own.

So for someone you know, my husband works in an office of other people, and he sometimes comes home and he complains to me about people in his office. And I don't know these people. I'll probably never meet them, but he'll say, oh, so and so did this, and that's fine.

But when you're coming home and you're complaining to your partner about your dad or you're complaining to your mom about their husband, that's obviously a different dynamic as well. So do you have any advice for families about how to manage?

I'm trying to think how I word this because I hadn't planned this question, but as we're talking, so many wonderful things are coming up for me is how you invite. Do you advise families to manage relationships with others in their family who might be separate from the business.

But of course, with it being a family business, I imagine you can't help but get drawn into the discussions. And we've all, you know, again, perhaps even against your will, because there might be someone who doesn't want to be part of the family business.

However, they discover that actually every dinner time, that's all that's discussed, being spoken about.

Yeah, yeah, you're so right.

And I feel that this is something that matters for people who might not even have a business or you don't even work together, like, similar to yourself. Me and my partner will speak about our jobs at the dinner table and work comes home. Like, my work spills out into my personal time.

So it's not something that. This is unique to families who work together. So I think that's good to recognize.

I also think that if there are people who talk about family or business all the time and because they're so passionate about it, I would hate to suggest that that's a. Because it works. If it works for everybody, and if it doesn't work for someone, then something will need to change.

Because if you've got one person who's unhappy, eventually that's going to grow and become a bit of a problem for everyone. Because you're absolutely right, too. There will be some people who are a member of the family but not involved in the family business in any way.

And if they want to hear about it, then that's great, or they don't. So I think that people just need to be really respectful of what other people want.

And sometimes just the question of can I speak about this or do you have a minute to talk about X? Or can I steal 60 minutes of your time, an hour of your time now, or does this need to wait?

So I think questions about talking are really, really great questions. Yeah, I hope that helps.

That really does help.

And from what you're saying, Lily, it sounds to me like, and you did say this right at the beginning, that communication is really the keys to everything. Because unless you're having open conversations, I imagine that's when issues can and will arise.

Yeah, yeah, indeed. It is all about communication. And I'd hate to be, you know, death by communication, but sometimes I do feel unapologetic about it.

Because when people say, please help, you're like, okay, this is it. We're going to talk to each other now.

And I think conversations about conversations and questions about talking and communication are great questions. So that's the main message, I think, to everybody right now is just to talk to each other.

Well, thank you.

And what about if there's someone listening now and they're part of a family business, maybe they're having some sort of difficulties or tensions arising. What's one step that they could take today to kind of work towards improving things?

Yeah, so I'd say it starts with each other. I mean, if I had a person like this talking to me, my immediate thought would be, what's coming up? Like what's at the heart of it?

That's a big conversation because some people will feel that it's important to talk about their family business with their family, that things need to be resolved or spoken about as that small circle of people.

But not everybody, because some people will be an individual that will want individual support to kind of take themselves away from their family and get some perspective or a little bit of independence and know what's going on for them as a person. I have to say that too, because a lot of my clients will be. I will see them as a family, but not all the time.

I support individuals outside of their family as well, even though we talk about their family business. So I think that that's a good starting point to kind of for people to say, is this something I want to talk about with my family or is this.

Is this a me thing? Not in a blamey way, but do I want to work through this alone?

And then I think even if that is talking about it with family or not to talk about it with somebody, even if that's a friend who can be confined in, or a counsellor, like a professional or business family business consultant like myself or one of the other great family business advisors, consultants who are out there. There's so much, so many resources. I think that's another message I'd just love to.

For everybody listening to know that there's so many resources out there. And I say that even though I think that's important to emphasize because think the world of family businesses.

The feedback that I've had is that it's really, really niche and that people don't talk about it much, which is true. But there are so many resources too.

That's really good to know. Thank you. I've got another quite specific question nearly. But I do think this is an interesting one.

Yeah.

So obviously. Pardon me. So I'm thinking about succession planning.

So obviously it has to be a topic if you run a family, because every business, family business or not, has to think about succession planning and the future and. And what happens there. What advice would you give to family Businesses who were thinking, who are thinking that through.

Because I can imagine that anything where family's involved, as we said all the way along, it's kind of different to a non family business in that there's that personal aspect as well. So I can imagine it can be perhaps a tricky conversation. I'm sure not always.

I would love your take on what family businesses can do to prepare for that, how they can have these conversations really constructively. It would be great to know your thoughts.

Yeah, yeah, super question. Because the question of succession, I mean ideally it would start immediately to always have this kind of conversation just simmering away.

And I say that because a lot of families and family businesses will get to a point where a conversation about succession is urgent and critical. And when things are urgent and critical, that's oftentimes when tensions just immediately step through the door because the stakes are really high.

And of course everybody has an opinion because this succession will impact on everybody. So my first piece of advice would be talk about it immediately when it's not urgent. Essentially.

I think when a conversation about succession is happening and it's an agreed time and place that this is what we're to going. Everybody will sit down and talk about this, think it's important to know what's, what's wanted from that conversation as well.

If that is a decision making conversation, like if it's decision making time or if it's exploring time or talking about people's thoughts and feelings time, then that's worthwhile to know because not every moment is decision time.

And I think that knowing kind of what the future of the business will look like and if it's going to change hands, change leadership, kind of when and where it's important to know or to have that open conversation with people about what everybody's ideals are, what everybody wants and needs, because everybody will need different things and particularly what position and place will be best for the business as well as best for the family. Because that's sometimes two separate questions there about what does the family need and want and what does the business need and want?

Because if the business is no longer profitable or if it's not working because maybe a transition and decision has been made that hasn't been useful for the business, then you know, could be game over like. So I'm not quite sure if this answers the question. There was a lot of different ideas and thoughts going through my head at once there.

But I hope that sheds some light on what's important. You know, you've got family to consider business to consider and who's right and who wants to step forwards and be the next leader.

Yeah, thank you. That did answer the question. And I think the main thing I take from that is to start having these conversations early.

I think that's a really good point because I can definitely see that these conversations, depending obviously on the family and the dynamics, they could be really easy, they could be quite challenging. But having them at a time when.

There'S no urgency, there's no rush, where you, like you say you don't need to have these conversations, I think makes a lot of sense because as you say, when things are urgent and rushed, things feel fraught, and then it's actually a lot harder to make good decisions, to communicate well. And I was really interested as well about what you said about the interests of the family and the. The interest of the business.

And can you talk a little bit more to that? Because I thought that was a really interesting point.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I separate family and business with care.

And I say that because when it comes to people's relationships, there's a point to be made there that family and business can't quite be separated. So if you're looking at your co founder, co CEO, who is also your sister now, how is it possible to. When to tease out those separate relationships?

Because when you, when you look at this person's face and you say their name, that is sister, co, founder, potentially co, CEO, it's all of it, and it all encompasses one relationship. So I say that to be. Just to emphasize that it's actually very difficult to tease out different parts of people's relationships.

But I think when looking at the family and the business as two separate entities, because you have got a family, that unit, who are people, you know, like individual people, different to a business unit, which is the business is not a living person. It's literally not people. And I need to, I emphasize this to myself sometimes as a solo business owner.

I provide a service, and if I don't work, then nobody's working. So you could say I'm the business in that sense. But I'm also not like Lily Llewellyn is not a business.

So I emphasize these types of things all the time.

All of that being said, my point here is that the family is separate from this business and knowing what the business needs, different to what this group of people that we call a family, what they need. Those are two very separate conversations. Is this making. Is that, is that clear or elaborate?

Yeah, it does make sense. I wondered, actually, in this this might be helpful, but you.

It might be putting you on the spot a bit too much if you have any exact given details, if you have any examples of families you've worked with or situations, because that might help illustrate it for people.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, for example, this is not a client who I've worked with, I have to say, but I think it will be a matter of time when this comes up, because I think this is a really prominent situation is how do you spend money? And when. When wealth or profit is generated, who does it belong to? Is that the business's money or does that belong to the business owner?

Slash, the family in this circumstance. So you might argue that the family benefits from taking out as much profit and wealth from that business as possibly could happen.

I think we could probably all agree. Sure.

That makes good sense for the family to take profits and then that family might spend it on other business adventures or donates to charity or gift giving, whatever that might be. But that is very different to what the business needs.

That the business needs that padding of wealth and assets and just cash, literally cash in the bank for it to do its best job. So conversation of how wealth is going to be spent and distributed, that's very different to what benefits the family and what benefits the business.

And there will be conversations that other people have with their clients. As I say, I haven't had this conversation yet with any of my clients.

But to know that there's a limit to how much money can be taken out from a business, because that will not help the business machine.

Thank you. That really helps to illustrate it.

I can really see the point now that the business is a family, two set of things with presumably two different sets of needs as well. Sometimes. Sometimes I guess they could be completely aligned.

But I'm sure there are situations where what the family needs, needs and what the needs and. Or wants and what the business needs could be doing. And that. That's really helpful. Thank you for that example.

Sure. No, not at all.

Yeah. So I've got just a few questions before we finish, Lillian, and one I'd like to know is about sort of growing the business. So how can.

For a small family business, let's say, and they're working really hard to grow, how can you balance that ambition without causing tensions, you know, to keep the harmony and to keep the family happy? So we're talking about this family separate from the business again, while growing the thing that is the business.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I think the main conversation there is to know what each and every individual person wants from their business and to really define what growth means because I feel that growth cannot, it does not necessarily mean, you know, scalability or more profits or more locations.

Growth might mean, you know, developing more, you know, giving to charity or growth might mean actually working less in the business and have it being more self reliant or it might be employing more members of staff. That could be a whole list of things. I think that the, the definition of growth for everybody would, would really need to be defined clearly.

But let's say that everybody agrees that they want to build more locations and focus on profit. And then that question would be about, you know, what, what, what's the give and take? What's, what is.

Because of course there's a trade off for everything, isn't there? So are people in agreement of what that growth will entail to be able to grow? If that makes sense.

I don't know if I word that very well, but growing the business comes at a cost. So to know that everybody understands what that trade off means and are willing to make that trade off essentially then that's important to know.

That makes sense. Thank you, that's been brilliant. Thank you so much. Lily. I have one final question for you before we finish that.

So you, if you could give one message to every founder listening who's working with their family or perhaps considering working with family, what would that message be?

That's a great question. I think the message is that working with your family is a very powerful and exciting bond to have.

You know, it's a big brave step to work with your family because it is true that the stakes are higher because, you know, working with people all the time, it really does have potential to strain relationships and putting all your eggs in one basket of going into business. I say all the time is not for the faint hearted. It's, it's not an easy thing to do.

And doing this with family, if it goes wrong, it can really go wrong. As I've had that experience of knowing from personal reasons how personal ways, how this can go badly.

But my main point and the message here is that it can go so well when the right support is there, when conversations are had and people agree.

I mean some of the absolutely biggest businesses out there, not that everybody has the ambition to go really big, of course, but some of the biggest, longest businesses are family owned. So it's a very, very powerful, effective, loving place to be. Yeah, main message.

That's brilliant advice. Thank you so much, Lily. And thank you for everything you've shared and I'm going to put all of your links in the show notes.

People come and find you, follow you, find out more about working with you. And thank you so, so much for your time. I' genuinely, really enjoyed this conversation.

No, not at all. Thank you. Thank you too. And to everybody listening, thank you for listening too. This has been. This has been super. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening.

Right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the Fullback catalog and lots of free resources on my website, vickyweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.