Email Marketing & Klaviyo – with Elle Williamson, The Ecommerce Assistant

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice, as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. So today on the podcast, I'm joined by Elle Williamson. Elle is also known as the e commerce assistant, and she joined me on another podcast episode back in May, where she was talking specifically about Shopify. I've invited Elle onto the podcast again to talk about Klaviyo, which is another platform that Elle specializes in. Klaviyo works really well with Shopify, which is one of the reasons I know that Elle uses it. And she talks about that functionality in the episode. So we don't just talk about Klaviyo, we also talk about email marketing in general. So why it's so important, best practice, some ideas of sorts of emails that you could send. Um, and we also touch on what to do if you have an email list and you just haven't been in touch with them for months, weeks, or perhaps ever. So this is a really useful, practical, actionable episode, and I would love now to reintroduce you to Elle. So hi Elle, thank you so much for joining me again. I'm so delighted that you've come to join me a second time to talk about a different topic today. So could you please just give everyone a little reminder, um, because I'm sure everyone's listened to you before, um, of who you are and what you do, please.

Elle Williamson: 00:01:30

I'm Elle. I um founded the e commerce assistant. And what I do with that is I help small business owners to grow their online sales using mainly Shopify and Klaviyo. So I've worked in the world of e commerce for, um, over 11 years, um, always within small businesses, um, and now helping small businesses. Um, so I really understand, excuse me, the whole, um, ecosystem of running that business, whether it's operations or marketing. So I have that understanding of it. And now I specialize in the Shopify and Klaviyo.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:04

That's amazing. Thank you. And say last time you were on, we were talking specifically about Shopify and um, that was such a brilliant episode. There was so much then that we took from that. So I've invited you on again to talk specifically about email marketing and Klaviyo before we move on to talk about Klaviyo specifically. Um, can you just tell us why is email marketing important? Because most of us have been told at some point that we should be doing it. Um, in your, in your opinion, what, why is that?

Elle Williamson: 00:02:32

And I think the thing is, everyone's told isn't, aren't they? It's not just like product based businesses, even us as service providers, we're all, it's all drummed into us at the moment. And I would say even more so within the last, um, 18 months that I've definitely seen there's this bigger focus on email marketing. And that's mainly to do with, um, changes on social media platforms and Google and things like that, that are kind of out of our control. And I think the big point is that email marketing is an owned channel. So it's in our control to gain subscribers, get them on our list and have that data and own that data, if you like. Obviously people have feel free to unsubscribe when they like, but having those people on your list and being able to email them when you want, whether that's campaigns and newsletters or automated emails you're in control of that. So you're able to send out that message when you like, you're not fighting algorithms or having to pay, you know, Facebook ad costs. It's, it's your list. And I think that's the big thing. It's, it's about talking to your customers and having that ability to reach into their inbox and really like have that communication with them. And, and the big thing is about nurturing them. That's something that comes up over and over again with email marketing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:44

That's brilliant. Thank you. And in a moment, I'm going to ask you a bit more about nurturing them and what that means, but I think what you said makes total sense because we're often told, have your own website in case you get thrown off Etsy or Amazon. Um, have it. And I think having your own email list covers that eventuality, but also if something goes wrong with social media, I mean, over the past year, I'm sure you've heard of people getting Instagram or getting their accounts hacked and suddenly all their followers are gone. But I guess if you have the majority of those people on your email list, at least you've got a way of getting back in touch, staying in touch, whatever it is, you're not losing that connection.

Elle Williamson: 00:04:19

Exactly. And I think it's a more, it's almost a more meaningful connection. I mean, maybe an Instagram expert would come on and argue differently and that's fine. But I think having that list. People have people. It's quite easy just to follow someone Instagram, isn't it? You know, we hit follow all the time. Joining someone's list, I think, is almost like a bigger commitment. So having those people that have made that commitment by saying, yeah, I want to sign up. I want to hear from you. Um, you've got, you're building that deeper connection. So they, they do want to hear from you and you're able to get into their inbox and you're not worrying about, like I said, you know, that algorithm, whether your post is going to be shown, you know, you you're in that inbox and I just think it's a more powerful, um, way of having that communication, that two way communication with your, with your customers.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:05

Definitely. Because as you say, being, following someone on Instagram or wherever, it's quite passive, isn't it? You know, even when you follow them, you know, you're only going to see a certain percentage. You don't have to engage with them. You know, follow them really easily, but to give someone your email address, there is a certain amount of trust, isn't there? Because, you know, once they've got your email address, they're actually in your inbox. There's no getting away from that. So yeah, I think you're right. It's, it's quite an actually, I don't know if privilege is the right word, but I guess we should be grateful when people want to join our email list because it means they do want to hear what we have to say.

Elle Williamson: 00:05:38

Yeah. And I think often I'll talk to small business owners that it's like, oh, I don't want to spam. I don't want to be sent too many emails. They might even say on their signup, like I won't spam you. I won't send lots of emails and it's like, well, actually let's just flip that on his head a little bit because like we've just said, it is a privilege actually. And someone has said, I want to hear from you. So I think it's always important to remind small business owners that that fact people want to hear from you. They've said they want to hear from you. So actually a big part of it is actually sending emails. Because I know that that can be a barrier for a lot of people.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:11

That makes sense. And actually I've noticed myself recently that I would rather get lots of them because I'm in, I'm on all sorts of email lists, but big companies, small companies, I would rather get the, I don't know, twice weekly emails and just delete the ones I'm not interested in than when I don't hear from somebody for three months and then they pop up on my inbox and I, because I always, well, nine times out of 10, I go, who are you, why are you on my list? And nine times out of 10, I will unsubscribe because it's been so long that I don't really know why I'm on their list.

Elle Williamson: 00:06:41

Exactly. And I think that that gap in not sending emails is a big problem for people. So even, so when you start your online store, say your Shopify website's gone live, you might already be collecting email addresses sometimes without even really knowing it. Um, but you've maybe not got that email marketing actually set up. And I think that is a big problem. Then when you will, I would always say to people, you're going to expect to see a big unsubscribe if you then start sending emails. So it's kind of why it's pretty important to try and do it from the very beginning. Um, and send as regular as you can, like, yes, twice weekly is amazing, but that's just not possible for everyone. But even if it was once a week, a bare minimum, once a month, I'd rather people do it more than once a month. But even if you were just doing that. At least you're not going to have that big gap, like you say. And then someone go, who, who is this and why are they emailing me? And, and it, it almost then does feel smart spammy, doesn't it? That's the problem.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:37

Yes. Because it feels like they're just emailing you because they're trying to sell you something or they've gotten, it feels like there's an agenda. Um, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with using your email to sell that at all, but I would almost rather someone sell to me constantly. And then I'll decide if I want to buy from them or not than just doing it when they've got a sale on or whatever it is.

Elle Williamson: 00:07:59

And I think it goes back to people having this mindset of feeling like they're spamming and feeling like they're over sending emails and you just have to remember, you know, open up your own inbox now and go and look through how many email whichever inbox it is. I mean, I've got hundreds of email addresses and you've probably got, you know, a stack of emails that have already come in this morning and you can scroll through and you can choose whether you want to open them or not. So actually your one email a week or month. It's not a lot compared to like, if you look at some of those bigger brands that are sending daily or every other day, um, you're not spamming them. Even if you decided to send twice a week, it's not spammy because there's lots of other emails coming into that person's inbox. Um, and actually you're kind of a drop in the water in a way. So most of the time I tell people you can't over send emails, like especially as a small business who, um, is probably time poor anyway. You're, you probably need to send more. I don't really come across many people that need to send less. Um, they might need to sort of refine a little bit what they're sending or send to different segments of their audience, but actually most people, and if we're thinking about beginners, most people need to send more.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:06

That's really useful. Thank you. And I want to come back to something you talked about a few moments ago. You mentioned nurturing your email list. What do you mean by that, Elle? How do we do it?

Elle Williamson: 00:09:16

So I think that basically just means not always selling. So yes, there's nothing wrong with selling. Let's just get that out there. Um, we are pro selling your products. You know, you have to sell that's part of having a product business and selling online. It's, there is a lot of selling, but I think the beauty of your email list is that you can spend time also nurturing. And by that we mean talking about your brand, your, your story, um, your, the benefits of shopping with you, but also not just making it about you. I do think it's very important to make it, try and put it into like your customers, um, eyes, if you like. So like talking to them and asking them questions and, and finding out about them and really using that like emotional connection, I suppose. Which is so much easier to do on email rather than something like Instagram and even your website, sometimes really hard to do that, like emotional connection on there. So it's about sending those emails that show who you are as a brand and what things you believe in. And, um, interesting, you know, some of the best emails I get from brands are like, not even don't even feature their products at all. It might just be like things we've done this week or, you know, all that other stuff that it's just about like human connection, isn't it? And it's almost like showing that, um, I think as small business, you're in a great position to show that there is a real person behind the brand. The bigger brands can't really do. So I think you have to use that to your advantage. And that's where nurturing the list. So telling them about you. Um, and not just saying, not just sending those sale emails. Because if you're only ever sending an email when you're on sale, you know, like you said a moment ago, it just becomes a bit boring. Doesn't it? And it doesn't give people a reason to stay on the list. So yes, they've opted in and that's great. And we're really grateful. But if you're only ever going to say we're on sale or on sale, or here's a promo code things can just get a little boring for them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:08

Yeah, totally. I know what you mean. I think some of the best emails I get, I'm trying to think of some of the good ones I've had recently. I really like it when brands show their new products. Um, because weirdly not everyone does, um, but I really like, I'm seeing that especially with creative businesses, they'll say, well, you know, this is new or I've made this. What do you think? Does anyone like this? And yeah, it's just nice, isn't it? To see what people are doing. And even like using that opportunity, like a new in email.

Elle Williamson: 00:11:35

Yes, that is, I guess you would think of that as a sales email, but actually, if it was one specific product that, uh, you know, a creative has made, they could go into detail about that making process. Like how we got from idea to products in your, you know, in your hands, that's always really anything behind the scenes is super interesting. Um, and people like to see that, like, how have you, how have you got here? Whether it's your business journey or your products journey, I think that's where you can turn those sales emails into more of a, a nurture storytelling email. I think there's, there's always going to be a bit of both, isn't there? You've got to sell, but there's also that storytelling.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:12

Absolutely. And I think for me, it just has to feel like news. Yeah. So I've got a few emails recently. I'm just, because I had to look through my inbox before we spoke and I've had a few emails from brands, big and small, who've been like, oh, the weather's really hot. You might need our sun cream. Or do you know what I mean? Things like that. That's kind of, you know, yes, they're selling, but it's actually, it's like, oh yeah, it has got quite hot. Do you need that?

Elle Williamson: 00:12:34

I always, I always say it's like about helping your customers as well. Like that's with your website and your emails, like help them out. Like if the weather has changed and obviously things that are to do with what's happening are always going to work well, whether that's, um, you know, Christmas, you know, anything seasonal is obviously going to work and you're going to talk about that a lot, but also, yeah, saying, oh, have you seen that we sell this? This could help you do this. And I think that's, um, something that people brands are often miss because I think you're so involved with your own brand and your products, you almost forget those, those, to tell people like that they're actually useful or they do this, or we have this available that, you know, yeah, the hot weather and you might want to buy our sun cream. It's important not to forget to do that and just be like, it's, it's helping. It's not, it's not spammy. It's not salesy because there's that bad rap for selling, but it's actually helping your customer.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:29

That's a really good mindset shift, I think. Thank you. So in a moment, we're going to move on to talk about Klaviyo specifically, but I've got one burning question before we do that, which is you mentioned earlier that it's obviously not very good to get lots of emails and not use them or perhaps not email your, your list for ages. And then suddenly decide, Oh, actually I haven't been doing that. Now not to make anyone feel bad by the way, because I think we've definitely, we've all been there where we were just like, I've got nothing to say. I don't want to, for whatever reason is, or you get really busy. I think email marketing can definitely drop off the to do list. Let's say, um, I haven't used my email list for months and now I'm feeling a bit scared because it's like, what do I do? You know, I haven't been in touch with everyone for ages. Everyone's going to unsubscribe as soon as I email them. Um, what's your best advice for dealing with that?

Elle Williamson: 00:14:17

I think the first thing is just do it, just send it, like, don't, if you've got that feeling of, I need to be, I need, oh, I've got that time now, or I've got that feeling that I need to email my list, just do it, like, just bite the bullet. You have to accept that the, not everyone will subscribe, but I usually see a slight, um, increase in unsubscribes. But again, unsubscribes are not a bad thing from your list because if people aren't interested or people, um, it might be a product that, you know, like a baby product. Like we only have newborns for a short period of time. So actually that person, that customer might have just gone through that journey of needing your brand. So it's okay to have unsubscribes. Never worry about that. Never see that as a, as a bad thing, unless you've got a real high percentage, you might have a problem. I think it's fine. If someone doesn't want to be on your list, don't worry about it. So I think if you've had that big gap and you're now like panicking, just bite the bullet, send the email, maybe address the fact that you've not been in touch. Um, you know, as a small business, like I say, you can talk to your customers in such a personal, um, way and, and think of it as if you're emailing one person. So think of it as I'm just emailing X customer, maybe it's a customer, you know, or maybe it's a friend and just think of it as if you were emailing that person to say, oh, sorry, I haven't been in touch for a while. Things have been busy for me, you know, just address it in like a really friendly, nice way that, you know, that is your brand, uh, voice and then just try. And I would then say, send that email, but then plan when are you going to send the next one. Don't let that big gap happen again. Um, because that's then you'll get that fear again and you'll get that like worry again. So actually, if you're going to send it, then say, well, I, I am going to then send weekly and it's going to be on a Friday. And genuinely, once you start doing that, it just becomes, it becomes part of your weekly routine. I know it's so, so hard to start. Like I've been there too. Um, I now send a weekly email to my list as a service provider and I've done it since January. And it's almost like, oh, I don't want to do it this week, but I'm like, I have to, I've I've started something now. And you almost commit to it. So I think getting into that routine of sending regularly, it's so, so hard to start, but once you do, it becomes so much easier. And then you'll see that, um, when you start planning, whether it's for the next few weeks, months, or the whole year, you'll see there's so many things that happen throughout the year anyway, that you're going to talk about, like the things that are just happening in life, whether it's school holidays or back to school or Halloween, you know, all these like events throughout the year. Once you put all them in and then plot your product launches and your promotions and your, all those sort of storytelling emails, you'll find that there's, you're not short of stuff to say. I think it's just sitting down and actually going, this is what I'm going to say and this is how often I'm going to say it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:01

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I think you're right that having a schedule definitely makes things easier, whether it's like you say weekly, monthly, but if, if you commit to uh, and then almost then you then it, you have a bit more accountability because you kind of think that people are expecting it. Maybe they are, maybe they're not. But I think just doing it at the same time every week or whatever is really helpful. That's great. Um, let's move on and talk about Klaviyo if that's okay, Elle. I'll be honest, Klaviyo isn't, um, an email provider I've used. So can you start by just telling us what Klaviyo is and why it's your top choice?

Elle Williamson: 00:17:38

So it's just an email provider like many others. So, you know, most people have heard of MailChimp or MailerLite. I mean, there's some, there's so many email providers now. Um, but the thing with Klaviyo is that it's, it was built for e commerce. So most other email platforms, if not all actually were built as email marketing providers. So whether it's a service provider or a school or a community based thing, like it doesn't really matter. It's just someone wants to send email. So the difference with Klaviyo is they built it to support e commerce for product based online businesses. But all the extra functionality that you might need, and sometimes you don't even know you need it or don't even know it's there, I suppose, but Klaviyo have that. So it's so much more sophisticated than something like MailChimp, which is what a lot of people seem to move from to, uh, from that to Klaviyo. Um, and it's the integration with Shopify. And this is why I guess I specialize in it. It's just amazing. So they've Shopify sort of promote them as their top email marketing provider choice. So it means that there's, they've got that connection. So they're building a better integration. So as soon as you, it's literally just like almost a click of a button to integrate, which is rare in the working in an online business as something so easy. And that means that the data from your Shopify store is going to connect, push through to Klaviyo and you're going to have that all in there. So you're going to know when someone's browsed products, when someone's abandoned the cart, when someone's abandoned checkout, what someone's ordered. There's just so much data, which can be overwhelming. I do get that for people just starting, but it tends to be something people I see might've started with something a bit more basic. They think, oh, I'm not quite ready for that. It's too complex, but most people then tend to want to move over anyway. So I kind of think if you haven't started yet and you've got a Shopify store, I think you might as well just start with it because it's going to grow with you. Like you're going to have everything you could possibly want. You've got the basic stuff. You can just collect subscribers and you can send emails if that's all you want to do. But you've then got the ability to have like all this extra functionality and data to grow.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:47

That's really helpful. Okay. So I've got a few follow on questions if that's okay. I guess the first one is, so I had a quick look at Klaviyo myself and I saw there were a couple of different versions. So do we need to use a paid version or is the free one okay to get started with?

Elle Williamson: 00:20:06

Um, there is a, there is a free, yes, there is a free, like most things, there's a free and most, and with emails, there's always like a up to x subscribers, um, which is available, but and you can start on that if you've, I think it's 250, but, um, you, I will have to go and check. Um, I think it's 250 subscribers. It's pretty small to be fair, but if you are just starting out, then yeah, there's nothing wrong with the free plan. You'll get access to everything. It's not one of those, um, platforms where free means you don't get this and you don't get that, but you only get a certain amount of sends of email sends. If, even if you've got a small list, but you're sending, let's say, I think about weekly, you would probably go over the amount of sends you can have. That's something they bought in about 18 months or two years ago, so you will then be quite quickly onto a pay plan. But the pay plan is, starts at I think it's 20 a month. So it's it's it used to be more expensive than like MailChimp, which is it's sort of direct competitor. But now that MailChimp have had some pricing increases and their free plan has got dropped how many subscribers you can have. I, what I'm seeing is it's, it's much of a muchness. Like it's pretty much the same as most platforms. And I know that, you know, small business want to keep costs down and, um, you know, you probably paying for lots of other things already, but the, the small costs that Klaviyo would be to begin with, with a small list, obviously it gets more expensive as your list grows. It's really, really beneficial because you will literally make your money back in like one email. Like you, it's not like, you can't see what you're making from it. It makes that so clear, like this is the money you've made from this email send that you'll instantly make that money back. And, um, I think for the cost it is, it's so, so worth it. So yes, you can start on a free plan, but I think most people will quickly be on the plate, the paid plan, to be honest.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:02

Oh, I like that. You can see how much money you've made from the email you sent. That's really clever.

Elle Williamson: 00:22:07

You can see everything. That's the beauty of it. I mean, most email providers give you a lot of data, but I just think Klaviyo's is so it's so detailed. So you can see, yeah, open rates, click rates, um, how much money that emails made, how much money your abandoned checkouts made. Um, and with that, obviously, with data means you can then make it better. You can make things work better. You can see, oh, which email made the most money or which got the most clicks, which one is intriguing the audience more and then do that again, basically. So the data side of things I know can be scary, but it's really important. And I think Klaviyo it as simple as possible for you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:43

Thank you. And what are some of the other features that you particularly like about Klaviyo? Because you've mentioned that for product businesses, this would be your top choice. What are some of the e commerce specific things that you think people might be finding useful?

Elle Williamson: 00:22:57

So the flows, which is your automated email, it's probably the biggest sell I would say. So it's the ability, it's because you've got these data points pulling through from Shopify, as soon as you integrate, you've got the ability to see what your customers are doing on site. So if I'm on your site and I just look at a few products, but then I leave, that's, I've, I've, I've abandoned my browsing. So that's called a browser abandonment email. And that's something you can set up with Klaviyo. So you can sort of target people at the different points of their journey through your website, whether that's just browsing, whether that's getting to the cart, whether that's getting all the way to checkout. And the same for once they've purchased, like you can, um, email them post-purchase emails that are sort of just a generic thank you. But then you can also get really into the detail of like, they've bought this, so I'm going to send them this. Um, so I think that like targeting your customers with those really specific flows is one huge feature and also the segmenting. So you can then segment your list, which again, most email providers do offer. Um, but it's, it's really easy to do by saying, you know, if customer has done X, Y, and Z create this segment for me. So if you sell a seasonal product. I had a client that sold, um, like an advent calendar. So they, they wanted to see like who bought the advent calendar last Christmas. And then they, they've got a segment ready to target. As soon as they launched that this year, they know that that's a group of people that might be, um, interested in buying it again. So it's the ability to kind of drill down into like who your customer is and what they've bought and how we're going to talk to them really specifically. Um, and then it's obviously got, you know, lovely, easy to use email designs. You can make lovely templates, drag and drop editor. Um. Yeah, the data, you know, the data is there. It's a lot, but I do think they make it as simple as they can. Um, lots of different sign up forms, pop ups, fly outs, embedded forms. Like it's just got, just got everything I think that you need as like a, as an e commerce business. It's got so much to get you to get you started for sure. But then like, like I said, take you like further into that drilling down into like specific customers and what they want and need.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:10

Oh, I really like that. Um, yeah, that that's all sounds amazing because I years ago used MailChimp and I believe that you could at that point do some of this on MailChimp. So maybe abandoned checkouts was one, but I personally, and this might, might just be me, but I remember finding it really complicated to sort of get everything set up. So I really like the fact that it sounds super easy. And it sounds like it almost does a lot of it for you. Um, yeah, Shopify makes so much sense.

Elle Williamson: 00:25:40

Exactly. Like it's got, it is easy just to get started. I think what I see is sometimes, and it's the same, I think I've said it about Shopify as well. Sometimes it's almost too easy in that there is templates of these flows that you can just set up so you can click in and say, right, I want to set up an abandoned checkout. Set up that flow. And it gives you this sort of template that you just edit. And like what I come to see a lot, if I look at someone's account to do like an audit is they've not really changed that. So it's really important. And I think we said it about websites as well to use templates. Yeah, of course it makes your life easier, but then adjust things and edit things and make sure it's like relevant to your brand, like change the subject lines. Think about the timing of those emails. Like it's got to be personalized to your brand. Um, So yeah, it's easy to get started, but just remember to, to make those, those edits.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:31

That's a really good reminder. Thank you. And it comes down to even those little things, doesn't it? Like you should get a footer with your social links and all those sorts of things. So that's a really good reminder to just check all of that. Well, check all of those things, but if you're getting started, just do it all at the outset.

Elle Williamson: 00:26:46

Well, yes, otherwise you've got to come back and fix it all. But, um, it's that thing of like, shall I just get started or shall I make it perfect? I'm not saying you've got to make things perfect, because getting started is far more important, but it's worth just like taking that extra whatever hour at that time and going, what can I do to like make this email really look like it's come from my brand, like have that consistency for my website. That's super important as well. Um, and that subject line's got to be like, it sounds like it's from you and not from, um, somebody else, which if you don't change the subject lines, yeah, you're just going to sound like someone else. Aren't you?

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:22

So Elle, what would you say are some of the ways we can get the most out of Klaviyo and perhaps some of these things will actually apply to other email marketing platforms as well?

Elle Williamson: 00:27:31

Yeah, definitely. So I think, um, starting with the basics is probably the biggest thing that I tell people to do. So I'll, you know, I'll sometimes look at somebody who's already set up and they're like, what can I do now? How can I make more money? How can I push it further? And actually what I usually see is that if you just focus on the very basics and get those like perfect or as perfect as they can be, um, that can make a huge difference. So rather than saying, well, I've set up all these flows, can I set up more? Definitely focus on like the key e commerce flow. So that does apply to any, um, email marketing provider that you're using. So that's things like, um, your welcome flow. So welcoming people onto your list. And that's a big one for the nurturing that we've already spoken about, um, telling people who you are and what you sell, um, and obviously trying to get them to make that first purchase. So that is essential. And it's got to be more than one email. So you might have set that up really quickly just to get something live, but then you've forgotten to go back and put in more emails. So that's something to, to work on. Um, your abandoned checkout, abandoned cart, abandoned browse, all those sort of abandonment emails, um, that you can set up. Those need to be set up and optimized. So get those working and they're going to bring in a lot of revenue because those are different customers that are sort of almost purchasing like they've browsed or they've gone to cart, they've gone to checkout. So it's really worth making sure that they're working hard. And again, multiple emails in those flows. Um, and then the one that I do see people miss, um, and I know I'm just focusing on, on, on automated emails at the moment, but it is something that I would prioritize setting up. So the other one is the post purchase. So. If someone has purchased that they've sort of gone through your welcome flow, they've maybe had an abandoned email, they've been purchased. Great. Don't just leave them. Setting up that post purchase is the way to start talking to them about purchasing again, which we all know having a customer, um, become a repeat customer is so valuable. Like rather than having to keep going and finding more customers, hopefully you've got a product that you can perhaps make sure that customer can buy again, like buy something different or buy the same product. Like depend, it totally depends what you sell. Um, because if you sell a consumable product, you're going to think about sending like a replenishment email. So I thank you for ordering, um, getting them excited for the delivery. How was your delivery? You know, you've got to think reviews, all that post purchase journey stuff, but also buy again. Like you've always got to think, how can I get this person to buy again or buy more? Um, so getting those kind of I guess it's four or five flows really perfected is a starting point and essential. But obviously you also need to get people on the list. So, you know, looking, thinking about a pop up. Uh, and I know people have issues with pop ups and say they can be really annoying, but it's the best way to get people on your list. So there's ways of making it not annoying, like setting the timing. Um, to have a delay rather than popping up straight away. The design of it, you can make sure that isn't too intrusive. Like there's lots of ways to kind of optimize that. So you want to be making sure that you have that set up, but you're then looking at ways of making it get more people on your list. Um, and also you can set up embedded forms and things like that, like I mentioned, but again, like the basics, just a pop up to get people on your list. Um, and then I guess the other essential is having a really great email template. So when you start with Klaviyo or any email marketing provider, working on that template design so that you can kind of just use that for every email will make things so much easier, so much quicker. Um, so creating a really lovely branded template that's got everything you might need. Like you say, like a lovely footer, social links, a header, navigational links, your logo, blah, blah, blah. Like go into your inbox and get inspiration like, you know, that's the, that's the thing with email, isn't it? We can just go and look at what other people are doing and get that inspiration. And then once you have that template, um, I probably should have said that first because you need that to make all those flows. But, um yeah, campaign emails. So those newsletter emails, those, those blast your list or to certain segments, um, that you need to be like, we've kind of covered, like, when are you going to send those? And what are you going to say? And start to plan that out from the get go, really, like, like I said, even if it's once a month, even if that's all you can manage. Um, doing that from the very beginning, just getting that started, um, and just start talking to the list. Because I think it gives you that real boost as well. Once you see like people are opening it, people are clicking it, people are buying from it. You then think, oh, this, this works. Like you've only got to send your, your first email, let's say, and you should see something, even if it's not sales straight away, even if it is just clicks and opens, it's like that you should see that as a real positive start. And hopefully that's something that then means you want to carry on. So I think that's the beauty of email. Like you just see instantly what's happening and it does make you feel nice.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:24

Well, thank you. And when you talk about getting people on your list and whether we use pop ups or not, or what's your view on whether you have to offer something for people to get on your list? So do you think we should offer a discount for people to join our list or anything at all? Or is it okay just to say, Why don't you join my list?

Elle Williamson: 00:32:44

I think it's fine. I think it's okay. Like, if that's what you want, if you don't want to offer something, I think it's totally okay. Like, it's no, you know, no one should say, oh, you can't do that. However, I think if you do offer something, you're likely to see a higher conversion rate on your pop up. So you can, within Klaviyo, you'll be able to see, you know, this pop up is converting at 2%, let's say, but actually we want it more like 5% ideally. So if you didn't have an offer, then you added an offer, I mean, if you added like 50% off that conversion rate is going to go sky high. Um, but, but that's not viable. So I think this is the problem. Sometimes I'll see people say, you know, I've been, you know, pop ups and I can increase your pop up by this much. And it's like, but you have to think about what's best for the business. So. Um, heavy discounts. I'm not a big promoter of. So if you are a brand, that's like, I don't want to offer a discount. I don't want to offer a freebie. I haven't, I don't feel like I've got anything to offer. Just ask people to sign up because there will still be people who want to hear from you. But if you can offer something, and obviously the most common is 10% off your first order, um, free delivery off your first order. Um, maybe a free gift with your first order, like these sort of things, if you can offer something within that realm, great. And then if not, perhaps there's something else you could offer, like, um, as service based businesses, we might offer a lead magnet, which is like a download or like a freebie that someone can maybe learn from. So I think, um, product based brands can do that as well. So you might be like, I don't know, like a sewing brand and you might offer like a. like a how to guide of like some sort of sewing guide. So there's always, there's, you can be really creative with it. Um, and what you offer. So I don't think you have to offer anything, but if you can think of like one of those things to basically it's exchanging their email for like what you're offering them. So if you do offer something, you're going to see that more people do want to join.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:34:39

That's really helpful. Thank you. And also I liked what you said about, um, it sounds like Klaviyo and mail and Shopify, sorry, together, give you opportunity to see how well your pop ups are converting. Because I also quite like the idea of, you know, try 10% discount for a while and then try free delivery on your first order and see which actually is most appealing to customers. I quite like that idea.

Elle Williamson: 00:35:01

Yeah, you can do A, B tests. So that just means instead of doing it like, you know, running one for a week and then running the other one for a week and comparing, you can actually set it up in Klaviyo to do that for you. So you would say one version is if you had these two ideas, let's say. One version is the 10% versus the free delivery. And then you'll be out. It will show you the results of like this one has performed at 5% and this one has performed at 2%. Um, so that's great. I mean, you do need to run that for a significant time. Like a day is not long enough. You need to be, I'd say two weeks at least, depending on the traffic on your store, it might need to be longer actually. Um, and also you might not see a big difference, and then I guess it's either run it again another time or you just make a gut call, I guess, on it. So, um, yes, if you, if you do want to test things, Klaviyo, that is one of the good things in it. You can test, oh gosh, like anything really. Like you could test the subject line of emails. You can test the pop up time delay. You can test the flows, like the time delay between your emails and flows. If you can think of it, you can test it. Um, I just usually say to people, get the basics done first. But yeah, if you had two ideas, actually, it's a really good thing that you can just go, well, I'll just test it and then, and then make that decision.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:20

That is really useful. Thank you. And I know obviously this is very obvious. I also think it was a good reminder that, think about what you're going to offer people to get on your list and think about whether you can afford to offer 10% discount or, um, can you afford to offer free shipping? And again, this will vary so much depending on what you sell. Um, I think that's just a really good, rather than thinking, oh, I have to offer whatever. And that's the reason I wanted to ask you, where I was. I knew you'd have a very sensible answer because you know, it's depending on who you speak to and what you read. It's really conflicting. So I think making, testing what works for you and your business. Is it obviously the most sensible approach?

Elle Williamson: 00:37:01

Yeah, not feeling like you have to do anything. So within Klaviyo, this is maybe one of the downsides where you've got like pop up templates as well. They'll usually have that 10% sort of there already or free gift or whatever it is. Don't think that's what you have to do because Klaviyo have put that. They're just giving you examples that are common in, in e commerce. Um, however, usually, even if you, well, hopefully you can afford it because even if you give 10% off that first order, because you're going to be using your email marketing to nurture and create repeat customers, the benefit of gaining that customer with the 10% off, and then them ordering, let's say three more times at full price, then actually that is worth it. So I think, yes, make sure you can afford it as a brand. Um, but, it, in the long term, if you are using email marketing, right, it should be worth it in terms in the financials. So, just remembering that as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:00

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I've got one final question now before we finish, which is what is your number one tip for using email marketing effectively? So whether that's, um, Klaviyo related or just email marketing in general.

Elle Williamson: 00:38:15

Oh my gosh, number one tip. I, I'm always so bad at these questions as I'm like, just do everything, but I know that that's so hard. Um, I think the number one tip is go back to what we started on, and it's just either get started, or if you've had this big long gap and emailed or never emailed, but you have been acquiring lists, like sometimes people look and they've actually got quite a few subscribers. So, um, just get started, just send emails. So even if that's setting up one flow, your welcome flow, let's say you haven't done that yet. If that's sending that one campaign every Friday morning, just get started. And I think once you do, it all becomes easier. Like doing all that stuff we've talked about will feel easier because you've just got started. And I think with the website is kind of like an essential, isn't it? If you want to sell online. Aside from the marketplaces or Etsy or wherever you need a website. So people get a website set up, whereas email marketing almost still feels like an optional extra. And I don't, I don't, I just don't think it is anymore. You, you need to be working on them both. So I think if you can just get started and make that part of your, like. weekly marketing schedule, you will, you will instantly see the benefits.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:27

That's brilliant. Thank you so much.

Elle Williamson: 00:39:29

You're welcome.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:31

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg. com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.