Designing products that support mental health – with Danielle Wathes, Discovery Journal

Welcome to the bring your product idea to life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Today on the podcast, I'm speaking to Danielle Wathes from Discovery Journal. Danielle designs and makes products which aid in the recovery of mental illness.

The products Danielle creates specialize in data collecting to find triggers of anxiety and stress.

So Danielle and I spent a lot of this conversation talking about mental health and we also, of course, spoke about her products, her range, how she came up with the ideas for her products, how she managed to get them produced. This is a really interesting in depth conversation and I would love now to introduce you to Danielle. Hi, Danielle. Thank you so much for being here.

Hi, Vicky. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.

So can we start with you? Please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Yes. So, first and foremost, my name is Danielle. I am the founder of a brand called Discovery Journal.

And I design and create primarily journals, but have branched out recently. And they're all to do with helping with mental health anxiety especially. But I also create neurodiverse tools as well.

Amazing. Thank you. Let's start with the Discovery Journal, if that's okay, because I believe that was your first product.

Can you tell us a little bit about more about what it is, who it's for, and why it's different to other resources that are out there?

Yeah, So I actually have one on me. Oh, grab it.

Oh, brilliant.

So there's two different versions. I'm not sure which ones I picked up. This is the neurodiverse version. Yeah. So primarily I wanted to create something that was designed for adults.

And the journals are, I would say they fall into the kind of CBT wheelhouse, but not quite so. So they're very logical, they're very cognitive, they're very data driven.

So instead of what you see on the market at the moment, which all seems to be positive affirmations and grounding techniques and mindfulness, what I create are more to the point.

And you're just noting down where you've been, who you've spoken to, stuff you do every day, and you collect data which forms patterns and monitors mood. So you can see where peaks and triggers are occurring. So it's different.

For that reason, I don't like to be put in the Wheelhouse of wellness journals. That's not what I do. These are for mental health.

These are for people that have high stress, anxiety disorders, depression, ocd, and I don't shy away from that.

That's brilliant. Thank you. And can I ask how the neurodiverse version is different, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, of course.

So the Neurodiverse version is exactly the same layout as just the standard version, but it's printed on a different color paper, which makes it easier for anyone that has any learning difficulties or dyslexia. So it's not the contrast of black and white. It's on a cream paper, so it's muted colors. There are more illustrations, not many.

I hate the use of emojis in these sort of things. I find them very childish. So I've tried to steer away from that.

But there are smaller kind of indications, like little prompts on what each section does.

The Neurodiverse version is also more structured in terms of using emotive language and being able to acknowledge and identify certain emotions throughout. It also features a page that's dedicated to sensory triggers and shutdowns and meltdowns as well.

So that takes those into consideration for anyone who is on the autistic spectrum.

Amazing. Thank you so much for explaining that. And I definitely can see that.

So these are for people who already know they have anxiety or depression or some other mental health condition, rather than those of us who are, like you say, focused on our well being and trying to maintain, you know, whatever state we're at now.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't actively deny anyone using the journals. I think, you know, I say to people, you don't have to have a diagnosis to use them.

Anxiety specifically is referred to as a common mental health disorder is something that we're all likely to experience at some point or another.

So keeping on top of this stuff is, is really important anyway if that's something that especially runs in your family or it's something you're concerned of or something big is coming up. It's always important to stay on top of your mental health, regardless of diagnosis.

But ultimately you're going to get a lot out of it if you're already at a point where, you know, especially myself, I was at a really, really dark place when I started kind of thinking about this sort of thing. And it wasn't until 10 years later that I actually designed the journal.

But I think you need to have an understanding of your condition, of where you're at, of where your mental Health is or is going to be to be using this sort of resource.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. You touched on it really briefly then, but would you mind talking a bit more about what inspired you to create the journal?

Yeah, of course. It was actually a bit of an accident. I don't know whether this works in my favor as a business owner, but I never intended to start this business.

I never intended to do this when my mental health got better. And like I said, it was, it was 10 years of trial and error to get to that point.

I was quite happy to shut the door on it and say, you know, I'm done with you, walk away and, and live my life. And that wasn't the path I took. I couldn't help but see and identify people around me that were struggling.

And I had a friend in particular who I could identify what they were going through as anxiety and depression. They couldn't or wouldn't, which happens to many of us. And I remember saying to them, well, do you journal? Do you write anything down?

Do you like, take stock at all of your mental health? And they said, no, I don't have time for that. You know, I've got a family to support and I've got to go to work.

When am I going to have the time to do that? And I thought, you know what, that is a really decent point.

Because when you think about journaling and you think about writing, you know, even just thinking about it, an hour's gone, let alone sitting down and committing to the flow of what you're feeling. And that can take a lot of time out of your day.

So I initially designed the journal, or the initial framework of it for this person and, and gave it to them in hopes that it would help. And it was them who kind of turned around and said, this is kind of really worked. It's quick, it's simple, I can get through it.

I don't have to be emotional or soul bearing. You know, there might be other people that respond to this kind of monitoring.

And so when, unfortunately, when Covid came around and I had a bit of time on my hands being off work, I kind of committed more to it and started hand making them on my dining room table and seeing if people liked what I was doing. And it's kind of gone off from there.

Oh, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And I think it's interesting what you said about how you didn't plan it to be a business.

And actually I would say that one of the best type of businesses to have is a business where you're selling something that solves a problem that you have. I don't.

Problem might not be the right word, but you know what I mean, a product that meets a need that you've had that will also benefit other people. Because, you know, there's a, you know, I mean, I feel like that way, you know, your product, there's a place for it.

I don't want to say solves a problem that isn't quite the right word, but you know what I mean, it's, it's something that there is a need for.

Yeah, absolutely. And to use the terminology problem, you know, it is pretty accurate. Well, when you're talking about neurodiversity and stuff, not so much.

But you know, I think, I think most people that have anxiety disorders and OCD and depression would categorize it as a problem. It is something debilitating to their lives.

And like I say to everyone, I can't guarantee that what I'm doing and what I'm creating is going to solve it. You know, a lot of this stuff comes from within. It's about your own motivation, your own want to get better, your own resources and time.

But if you think the way that I think and I think quite logically, then it's going to certainly help you. It's going to certainly help you to progress and keep that motivation up.

Because you can't, you, you really can't expect other people to make you better. It's the same with physical health. You know, you break your leg and you go to the doctor and they'll fix it and they'll give you pills and whatever.

Mental health just doesn't work like that always. You know, medication can only go so far. It's only applicable to some people.

So these type of resources can be really helpful just on a day to day basis on maintaining positive mental health anyway.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I think you're right. It's just one piece of the overall puzzle. Isn't the right word but you know, it's one tool that you can use to either.

To manage or maintain your, your mental health.

Yeah, absolutely. And it won't be the same for everyone. Some people really won't respond to writing and that's absolutely fine.

Some, some people prefer different versions of maintaining their mental health. And that all comes down to the horrible word that I hate to use, which is self care.

I think there's a real, there's a real confusion about what that is. I think people Say self care, and they think, read a book and go for a walk and have a bubble bath. And it's just, it's just not that at all.

Like, self care is basically listening to your body, listening to your mind and seeing what it wants.

And if it needs a night out with the girls or it needs to go to, you know, center parks and run around in the mountains or do a bungee jump, then that is self care. Because you are providing yourself with something that you are missing. And that's up to you.

I mean, if you're missing human contact, if you're missing affection or friendship, then those will be the things that you need for your self care. It doesn't always mean journaling. It doesn't always mean taking a walk or having a bubble bath.

It is, it's really individualized and you just need to find what's right for you. And I am a journaler. I think a lot of people are. And this will work for people that are, that respond to it.

I absolutely know what you mean because I think it's, it's just understanding. It's not a one size fits all. I feel the same about rest because some people rest means sit down, put your feet up, don't do anything.

Whereas for me, I don't like that sort of rest. That sort of rest does not work for me. A rest for me would be going for a long walk on my own, if you see what I mean.

That for me would be, it would be a rest. But I think quite often we're told this is the way to take care of yourself. This is the rate of rest. This is whatever it is.

But I think you're right that it has to be what works for you. And there definitely isn't one solution that's going to work for everybody.

And I guess by taking care of your mental health and get an understanding of yourself, you learn what are the things that work for you as opposed to what are the things that we're told should be working.

Yeah, absolutely. And what the journals do in that respect is they kind of find your baseline.

So the more you write down who you're interacting with, how you felt about those interactions, where you visited, how you felt about where you visited, those kind of small details in our everyday life, they create a baseline of where those kind of peaks in anxiety or triggers are coming from, and just get a better understanding of who we are. Because a lot of this stuff we just completely ignore. And I agree with you 100%.

People always tell me to rest and I Think you would agree being that you, you have this podcast and you know, I have my own business and rest isn't always an option. So it can just be just putting the laptop down for a second and taking yourself out or doing a bit of shopping.

That's a, you know, doing chores around the house that have been neglected. That is kind of a form of rest because I'm getting something out of it while not completely draining myself mentally. It's tedious.

Tediousness can be my rest.

Yeah, I know exactly, I know exactly what you mean. So let's talk a little bit more about sort of the creation of the. That will stick to the journal for now.

I know you have other products which we will talk about. So you mentioned earlier that you were hand making these. So how. So how were you. So were you literally having a book and drawing them in?

What were you doing at the start?

So thinking back now, so I was initially creating wire boundaries journals. So what I did is, well, I actually planned the journal to be a proper notebook.

So I opted for wire bound because I thought that's something that I can make myself. Got myself on YouTube, watching some tutorials and bought myself one of those kind of home binding kits.

And I was making like the cardboard covers myself. So I was cutting those out with a scalpel. I bought some like transfer sticky printer paper.

So I designed the COVID and then print were was printing from my home printer, cutting those out, sticking those onto the covers. I was very fortunate that I already used a local printer who was still operational during COVID because it was a one, one person business.

And I could send the, the pages that I'd created over to the printers and they would in turn either deliver them to my house or I'd go and collect them from outside of the business. And I punched 112 pages, I think it was per journal.

And I punched them in blocks of five or 10, just over and over and over again and then used my, my binding machine to close. And that was kind of like the process of, of just creating one journal. So one journal would take me probably about an hour, hour and a half to make.

Initially I had many accidents. I think I accidentally stabbed myself in the stomach once with a scalpel. I sat on one once. That hurt a lot.

And yeah, it was relentless and satisfying. To be producing them at that point. It gave me a concentration during COVID for sure.

That's great. And I. I can't believe how much work you're putting into creating. That's amazing.

And by then, were you seeing that other people were interested in them and that because you mentioned that the first one was for your friend, have by this point you sort of realized that actually there'll be other people that would benefit from them?

Yeah, I. I mean, I didn't. Bizarrely, I didn't put too much thought into it because I kind of said to myself, okay, well, I'm not doing anything else.

It can be like a little hobby. And I had another business at the time which had kind of basically stored to a stop because of COVID itself. So I.

I kind of created a little free website and I put them on there and I created a Facebook page. And I think I just was putting like a couple of quid, maybe a day into advertising on Facebook and seeing if anyone was interested.

And they were, which was great. But it just meant then for like the next two years, basically, of being at home, it was just complete relentless making journals.

And I had to find a way to be able to fulfill all the needs of what I was doing and what I was saying the journals could do while still being able to find an avenue where I didn't have to make them all from. From scratch. And that was a challenge in itself.

So. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about that. So how did you go from making them all yourself to, I assume now they're made somewhere else?

Yeah, so there were a lot of, kind of, like with every business, there was USPs, which I was very, very kind of gun ho that I. I had to maintain. And a couple of those being that they look like they weren't designed for kids.

I think a lot of journals and wellness aids and stuff are all very patronizing sometimes, you know, big smiley faces and you should be positive and you should be happy. And I think all that does is kind of, for some people, it works.

For some people, it kind of makes them feel incredibly guilty that they cannot achieve this level of positivity and. And, you know, gratefulness all the time. So I wanted it to be a very adult resource, very kind of paired back.

And I wanted it to be refillable because I think charging, you know, 20, 25, 30 pounds for a journal, that when you reach the end of it, you've then got to pay another 25, 30 pounds to keep it going just People who have mental health difficulties have enough difficulties on waiting lists and this, that and the other to then give them more financial trouble is just, it's not beneficial.

So I wanted it to be refillable and I wanted it to be able to lay flat because personally I have had journals in the past where I've gone to write and there is nothing more annoying than having the book fall on your hand mid flow. So those were kind of like absolute essentials. So what I opted to do was go for a ring binder.

I was already doing what, like wire binding, so it's very similar. So I opted for a ring bound and then left handed people can take the pages out and use the other cover to write if they'd like to.

It seemed to, to tick all the boxes of what I needed the journal to do.

And I didn't realize it would be quite as much of a challenge as it was to try and find people that were still making ring binders because they kind of in a way fallen out of favor.

I think, you know, you had the big businesses like your Filofax, but other than that people weren't necessarily creating these kind of smaller ring binders anymore. So trying to find someone in the UK that did was a real, real challenge.

And, and yeah, I was very lucky that now I do have a regular manufacturer for the ring bound. But that, that back and forth probably took about eight months in total. Yeah.

Oh wow. That's a really long time.

Yeah, it was, it was a really long time when you know, demand is only increasing and you're trying to negotiate back and forth to try and how quickly can I get the ring binders? And I am quite a perfectionist.

I knew what I wanted and I knew what I wanted them to look like and I wasn't prepared to order anything until they were the way that I wanted them. I felt a huge responsibility for the product that I was selling.

You know, people like me who have mental health difficulties were looking at this as something that might help them and I felt a huge responsibility to get it right. So it, yeah, it took the time it took.

I think I hear this so often, by the way, about how long it takes.

So I think it's really useful for people to hear because especially when you have like an exact specification, which by the way, I think everyone should have for their products, you should know exactly what you want. I think it can take time to find someone who can meet that brief.

And I'd also say that it's worth spending that time because I Don't think any of us want to feel like we've compromised.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and like with anything, there are compromises that have to be made at, somewhere down the line.

But I, at that stage, certainly I wasn't prepared to make any. And I always like to be really realistic with people in terms of when you're running a business and the roadblocks that you can come up against.

Because I think certainly in our culture and in the UK is promoted that, you know, we support small business and make your dream come true and, and all of that. And actually most of the time we don't have the ecosystem to be able to, to actually support small business. And it does take a really long time.

It's not as easy as it's made out to be. And you kind of do have to be adventurous to, to get the result that you want to get. Ellie?

Definitely. And I agree with what you say, by the way, that there definitely needs to be some level of compromise in some things.

But I think when it comes to the spec of your product, I think everyone has the real key things that they want their product to be or have or do.

And those are the things where I think actually, no, you have to stick to guns on that because for example, if your product wasn't ring bound and wasn't refillable because you've given up on that, because that was difficult, you probably wouldn't have the same feeling about the product. You know what I mean? If it didn't tick those boxes that you set out to do.

Yeah, it's, it is difficult because I think anyone that's in essence selling anything needs to be able to believe in their product. And, and the main, the main bulk of my product is in the paper, it's in the content of the journal. But a lot of people buy with their eyes.

A lot of people have specifications.

For instance, I've spoken to teenagers that are at boarding school or people that are in delicate domestic situations that, that didn't feel comfortable having a journal that you weren't able to lock. So I designed a lockable one.

And even though the, the bulk of the product and what I'm selling is in the content of the journal itself, the, the outside, what it comes in, all of those sorts of things.

They, I can't compromise on that because I'm cutting out a huge segment of people that could benefit from the use of the journal, but they just don't feel secure enough to, to use it.

That makes sense. Thank you.

And that leads me on really nicely to what I wanted to ask you about, and you've actually given me one example there, because I wanted to ask you about the feedback you've had and whether that has influenced any changes or any new products. So you've given the example of the lock there. What other feedback have you had? What type of feedback are you getting?

Yeah, I mean, I have been. I don't like to use the word lucky because I think it takes away from the amount of work, but I've been very privileged, I would say, to.

To have the feedback that I have gotten. You know, 99% of the customers I hear from only have good things to say or slight improvements that they want me to make, which I go ahead.

And if it's within my capabilities, I do it. I. Since I design the journals myself, if someone says, oh, can you take out this bit and put in this bit or whatever, I'll. I'll.

I'll do my best to try and try and accommodate that need. There. There have obviously been times where some of the feedback has been negative, and that's usually, you know, keyboard warriors on Facebook and.

And that's their opinion. And sometimes I take them on and sometimes I won't. But, yeah, I've been incredibly fortunate to have the support that I have had.

I think when you are working in mental health, you will support each other. It's a community. And whether you intentionally create that community or not, it is there because you all have something in common.

And in most cases, it could be something really horrific in common. And it's a real struggle. And there are a subsection of people that just understand that struggle.

And I can communicate with them completely, normally and realistically. And if I can't do something, I'll say, no, I can't do it. But I've gone on to. To design other products and create other products that I think.

I mean, my first. My first inspiration, to be honest, is myself. I'm not designing this stuff initially with anyone else in mind, but.

But me having been there myself is. It's three lived experience, and then it's being confirmed or disproved by usually my customers. And then I'll go on and I'll.

I'll alter or create things based on. On what they say as well. So there's a lot of kind of external feedback that's coming in and that I'm internalizing.

So, yes, it's an ongoing process, and I get ideas every day, and it's just a matter of time before I have the money and time to start Churning them out, really.

I think it's great you're able to do that, though, that your customers are able, you know, feel they can share with you what's working, what isn't, and they can make suggestions and that you can implement them. So can we talk a little bit more about. I know you've expanded your range beyond the discovery journal.

Now can we talk a little bit about some of your other products, maybe how they came about? So were they. Are there some that were influenced by customers or they all based on your experience? It'd be great just to talk a bit more, please.

Yeah, of course. I mean, all of everything that I design anyway always goes through some sort of vetting.

I have charities that I work with and schools that I work with, and, and often I will go to them and say, is this appropriate? Does this work? Especially with, like, neurodiversity? I want to make sure that everything is as it should be. Very recently.

I'll just grab it very recently. Only a few months ago, actually, I designed these. So these are their prompt cards for journaling.

I think there's one thing to be able to create the discovery journal, which is bulleted and you can work through it in five minutes. And there are other people who like to free write and there is space in the discovery journals to use these prompts with the bulleted version.

But if you're already a journaler and you don't need that, then these will be really good for free writing. They are color coded for easy, medium and hard, and they have a quote on one side and then a therapeutic question on the other side.

So it gives someone a bit of focus of what topic to write on and what to explore. Because sometimes it can get a bit like, monotonous just being like, oh, this is what happened in my day.

And sometimes you lose excitement for writing, you lose the passion for it for. For quite some time. So these are kind of a bit like a challenge.

And you can work up to the hard ones or you can do them all and then return to them in a year's time and compare and see if anything's changed. But these have been just. They went crazy when I released them. I'm actually training myself to be a therapist at the moment. So a lot of the.

The questions that are in here are what is what I've come up against in my. Either in my own therapy or during the therapy course.

They've been obviously slightly altered for this context, but they really delve into quite, quite deep questions. Let me try and. Okay, so there's this one quote says, I never lose. I either win or I learn.

And on the back it says, remind yourself of your failures or mistakes. Ask yourself what you've learned from them and how have you changed because of them.

So it kind of just inspires a little bit more internal thought and a little bit more internal work. So it's pretty much completely opposite to the discovery journal format and the data collecting and that sort of way of thinking.

This is far more open to the elements in terms of what you can explore and write and uncover about yourself. So they might be polar opposites, but they can work together. So that was something new that I brought out a few months ago.

And yeah, they've, they've done really well.

And are you finding that the customers buying the prompt cards are different to the customers by, by in the journal? Are they two different groups or is there crossover? I'm just, I'm just curious because as you said, it feels like two really different approaches.

Both yes and no.

I find that, you know, initially, and I was, I was very fortunate to actually be out in the wilderness when, when the cards first came out, so I was able to, to physically speak to customers. And yeah, there was a bit of a 50, 50 divide because some people bought both the journal and the cards and used them together.

Like I said, there is free writing space in the journals for further analysis, but it's not a plain notebook. So some people bought them together and wanted to use them together.

On the one hand, do the data collection to find triggers, and on the other hand, do the internal work and work with the therapeutic questions to get a better understanding of, of.

Well, realistically, it's usually trauma or something, you know, past experience, wanting to understand yourself a little bit more, who you are, why you think the way you do. So they're both really important techniques and aspects, so they work brilliantly together. And yet there were people on the other hand.

I would usually ask when they came and spoke to me, do you journal already?

If, if the answer was yes, you know, they, they free journaled, then the cards were, were really beneficial for the work they're already doing journaling. I'm not in the business of forcing anyone to use anything.

I'm not in the business of convincing them that what they're already doing is wrong and they should be using what I'm trying to sell because that's counterproductive to mental health.

If they're doing something that already works for them, then I'm not about to push something different on them because That, I mean, it doesn't reflect well on me if it doesn't work anyway. So it's just, it. I'm trying to create things that work for, for multiple different people that respond to multiple different, different things.

So yeah, there's a, there's a bit of a crossover, but personal choice, like with everything.

Personal choice, yeah. Thank you. No, I was just really interested and I think what's great about the range of products you're developing is, as you say, there'll be.

We were talking about how self care and wellness isn't one size fits all. And by having a range of products and you have something for everyone, hopefully depending on what people are looking for and what works for them.

Yeah, absolutely. And I do have to rein it in sometimes.

Like I said, just keep getting ideas and don't necessarily have the time or the budget to be pumping them out as rapidly as I want to be.

But what's really important for me is that everything that I create does a job, it has a purpose, it actively helps and it's really important that it's marketed for mental health and not.

I just, I hate, I hate the use of wellness and that sort of thing because I think it almost gives people who really do struggle with mental health, it kind of, I don't know, reduces.

It. If you actually suffer with your mental health, it's, it's not really about well being. It's bigger than that.

I'm trying to think of the words as well, but I do know exactly what you mean. It's. You don't want to downplay the impact of having anxiety or depression or OCD or any, anything at all and the impact that has on your life. Yeah.

And I think the more these words kind of like wellness, well being, self care, you know, get, get rammed down the populace's throat, the less the people actually genuinely want to see of this stuff, the less they believe in it, the less they think it worked. I mean, more.

I've noticed certainly over time that if I put an advert out or something like that, I get far more, you know, keyboard warriors that are kind of like, how would you know? And you know, and I don't want to be seeing this more of this kind of rubbish and, and, and that sort of thing.

And it desensitizes people to things that can actually help and can make people angry if the kind of, the education and the knowledge isn't there to support. People see it as, oh, just another thing that someone saying is, is going to help and you know, it's a, a candle for anxiety and, and fine.

But it makes it far more difficult for the likes of me and other people that have these tools that are genuinely just trying to help people like themselves. It makes it harder for, for our voices to be heard amongst everybody else's.

I can definitely see that.

And I'm really sorry that you get that sort of reaction as well when you're creating products that you know, that are really well intentioned, that are well researched and that have a real purpose and let's face it, a real need as well. There is a need for these types of products. So I'm sorry, that's the response you're, that you're getting. And yet why do you think that is?

Do you think people are just, I don't know, insensitive or not informed or they've just, they see so much of it?

I think, I think it's kind of all of those aspects. I think, I think miseducated, misinformed, that sort of thing fuels a lot of this type of stuff.

And I think, yeah, over exposure to it as well kind of desensitizes people.

And if you don't have experience like with anything, if you don't have experience of it, if you don't, if you haven't come across it, then you're highly unlikely to understand why these products are being promoted or created for other people because it's not something that you've come into contact with.

And, and personally, if I don't have any experience with a subject, I tend not to weigh in and try not to have an opinion on it because that's not my place. But many people don't feel that way and feel like their opinion should be completely valid even if they don't have experience in it.

And yeah, I like, I think any small business owner, any business owner will always come across negative opinions and uneducated or misinformed opinions. And it's, it's how they handle it. I mean, I got advice once which was never, never say anything, just ignore it. Any, any news is good news.

Just, just let them keep racking up their comments. And for the most part I take that advice.

There are a few occasions where I will snap back whether, whether that does me any good or not, I don't know.

But when you have experience, life experience with this sort of thing and people are, or a person is publicly and openly dismissing your experience or the experience of other people like you, it can be quite difficult to bite your tongue. And in those cases, I always decide to take A really calm and really logical and educational approach, and that most of the time works.

Oh, I'm glad you're able to stay so positive despite all of that, because it must. It must be hard, especially when, you know, some of this is directed at you and your experience and your product. You know, it's.

It would be very easy, I think, to take it all really personally. So I'm pleased you're able to still be fairly, you know, to be positive wherever you're feeling.

I don't know, maybe you're possibly what you're feeling is not always positive around this, but I'm glad you at least are hopefully not taking it to heart, is what I guess I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I. I don't really take it to heart anymore.

I think you have to find some sort of compartmentalizing, I guess, but especially when you're the one creating these things, you're the one that's driving can be quite difficult to do that. But the business has grown organically for the last kind of nearly five years.

Most, if not 99% of the feedback I get is good feedback, and that outweighs it.

You know, when a really horrible comment comes in and you feel terrible about it, then I've got, you know, 800 other people that I can speak to that'll completely debunk that. So I'm. I'm very fortunate in. In that way.

Definitely. You're definitely reaching the people who. Who you need to reach and. Yeah, and you're definitely making a difference. So you're right.

I think holding on to that is definitely a good strategy. So thank you so much for everything you've shared, Danielle.

I'm going to put links to your website and everywhere people can find you in the show notes for this epis. And can I just ask you before you go, what would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators?

It's difficult. It's difficult question. Persevere, I would say, but also with a pinch of salt. Yeah, it.

You need a lot of strength and you need a lot of bravery to do this stuff and to have your own business. But, yeah, take everything with a pinch of salt. Not everyone's people like to promise you the earth and they don't deliver.

So just to trust your own instincts and do what you think is right for your business, that's brilliant advice.

Thank you so much, Danielle.

All right, thanks, Vicki.

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the Fullback catalogue and lots of free resources on my website vickiweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.