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In today’s podcast episode, we’re chatting with Debbie Scott from Sheila Sells Seashells. Debbie specialises in transforming oyster and scallop shells, naturally formed by the ocean and artistically enhanced by her, into stunning creations. Debbie’s shell creations are unlike anything I’ve seen before. Her miniature works of art are utterly unique making them popular gift items. 

I was intrigued to learn about Debbie’s process: how she acquires these shells, the artistic journey to transform them into art pieces, the time involved, and particularly, how she determines the pricing for such labour-intensive work. Debbie shares lots of information about how to price hand crafted items both for general and wholesale. 

Debbie’s day job is running her PR Agency, Scott Communications, so she also shares her top tips for how small businesses can boost their PR.

There is so much value packed in this punchy episode.

  • An introduction to herself and her businesses (01:38)
  • Debbie’s products, crafting art from shells using decoupage, gold leaf and resin (02:41)
  • Debbie’s inspiration for working with shells this way (04:20)
  • Moving from having a craft hobby to making it into a business (05:41)
  • Selling her art via wholesale (07:32)
  • Bespoke commissions (08:17)
  • Working out how to price a unique piece of art (10:44)
  • The importance of factoring in time when working out your pricing (11:23)
  • Working out pricing for wholesalers (13:14)
  • Sourcing her shells responsibly (13:44)
  • Balancing pricing her art to cover her costs but also making it affordable (16:24)
  • The practicalities of creating your product at home (16:54)
  • The power of networking (20:10)
  • Managing imposter syndrome (20:57)
  • How to do well at markets (24:42)
  • PR tips for small businesses (25:46)

The Bring Your Product Idea to Life Podcast  – Best Business Podcast Award, Independent Podcast Awards 2023

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Transcript
Vicki Weinberg:

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice, as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Today on the podcast, I'm talking to Debbie Scott from Sheila Sells Seashells. That's a bit of a tongue twister, isn't it? So Debbie works with oyster and scallop shells. They're created by the sea and enhanced by her. Debbie is based in Tonbridge and she handcrafts beautiful seashells, turning them into pieces of treasure that you can keep forever. Her oyster and scallop shells have so many uses and make the best Christmas presents and other gifts too. They're unique, they're eco friendly, and yeah, they're just beautiful. Um, I've never seen anything like Debbie's products, so I was really fascinated to find out about how she sources these shells, what she actually does with them to turn them into pieces in art, the time that takes and also how she prices her products because you can imagine the work that she does is very time intensive. She produces these beautiful pieces and um, as I'm sure you'll be aware, pricing for hand made products can always be a bit tricky. So it was really interesting to hear Debbie's take on that as well as all the other things she had to share with us. So I really hope you enjoyed this conversation with Debbie. So hi Debbie. Thank you so much for being here.

Debbie Scott:

Hi, how are you today?

Vicki Weinberg:

Really good. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. And can we start with you, please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, of course. So I'm the owner and founder of Sheila's Sells Seashells. My name is actually Debbie. Um, my husband's Australian and he's just called me Sheila for years. So it's kind of stuck. Um, um, yeah, so we live in Tonbridge with our daughter, Aggie, and, uh, we love going to the beach. It's our happy place. And, um, yeah, I've got, I've got two businesses really. I've got Scott Communications, which is my main business where I offer copywriting, editorial, proofreading, PR, and public affairs services to businesses and individuals. But what we're here to talk about today is Sheila sells seashells, which is my arts and crafts business, um, where I hand decorate oyster and scallop shells.

Vicki Weinberg:

Thank you so much, Debbie. And because obviously this is audio and people can't see your products, although of course, we're going to link to your website in the show notes and hope everyone goes to have a look, but can you just briefly explain what your shells are? So just give us a little, I know it's really hard to do it audibly, if you can just describe them for us.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. So I take um, oyster and scallop shells and, um, I turn them into sort of beautiful, beautiful treasures that you can keep forever. So, um, they can be used for all manner of things. The world really is your oyster. You can use them as trinket dishes, ornaments, jewellery trays, salt and pepper cellars, um, necklaces, um, yeah, anything really, um, cufflink holders. Um, I, I basically, um, craft with them. So I'll go into this a bit later, but lots of cleaning is involved, scrubbing away all the nasty, um, barnacles and yucky bits. And then, um, I paint them all to a degree, and then I use a combination of methods to decorate them, but, um, predominantly decoupage and, um, where I select a print and sort of, um, work it into the shell. And then, um, what I think sets my shells apart is that I use an actual gold leaf, um, to, uh, sort of apply the gilt around the edge. And then, um, I use several coats of epoxy resin to give it that really long lasting hard shine. Um, and, and yeah, the result is a little bit of treasure from the sea that you should be able to keep forever. It's a nice eco gift.

Vicki Weinberg:

It's a lovely gift. And I've obviously had a good look at your website and your shells are beautiful. And we'll talk a little bit later about sort of everything that goes into them because I can, you can see by looking at them, how much work, and obviously you've described it to us there as well. There's a lot that goes into your shells. Um, but I would love to know what inspired you to start working with shells in this way.

Debbie Scott:

I've always loved the sea. Um, from a very early age, I wanted to join the Royal Navy. Um, I ended up joining the Royal Navy Reserve, but that was because of my eyesight. Um, I've always loved the sea. It's just, you know, a sense of romance and just there's so much you can do at the seaside. My family and I, we love being by the sea. We love going to Whitstable. It's a happy place or, or Cornwall. I'm a bit of an oyster tourist. If I know there's oysters, I'm there looking, you know, scouring the beach. Um, my daughter's like, looks for fossils and crystals. I look for pebbles and sea glass and of course, all different types of shells. And, um, I kind of just have an eye for looking at, um, a shell on the beach and thinking, oh yeah, that could be a really good octopus design. Or, you know, I kind of know what design I want to put before I've even picked it up. Um, I guess it all stemmed from, um, lockdown really. Um, we had more time to go to places like Whitstable and um, yeah, it really became our happy place and, uh, I guess I had a little bit more time to sort of start doing a bit more arts, arts and craft, which I've always loved doing. Um, so it was really a covid, um, lockdown hobby that's, it's turned into an artisan business.

Vicki Weinberg:

Thank you. And when did it, I'm assuming that, you said it started out as a hobby. So when did it become a business and what made you think, okay, they're actually, you know, could be something in this, I could start selling them.

Debbie Scott:

Well, there's only so many shells you can give to your mum and, and, um, wider family and friends. And, um, people just said, you should start selling these. Like they're not bad. And, um. I started putting them on Instagram and a gallery in Scotland, um, um, I remember the name in a second, um, contacted me and said, um, would you be prepared to supply them to us on a wholesale basis? Um, so I started doing that and then, um, various sort of, um, local wholesalers, um, got in touch and, and I got some bespoke orders, um, just using social media to sort of get, get myself noticed, um, locally and, um, yeah, we went from there really. Then I set up an Etsy shop and, um, I put a lot of focus into that for quite a while. And then more recently I've created my own shop through Shopify just so I can have my very own shop window, um, because obviously Etsy has all its fees and I just wanted to have my own sort of um, yeah, so yeah, it, it went from there.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's amazing. And how long ago was this? So you started creating them in lockdown, which that wasn't that long ago really.

Debbie Scott:

Um, I think I set up my first Etsy shop, um, two years ago this week, actually.

Vicki Weinberg:

Oh, that's amazing. And actually that hasn't been that long for, you know, when you mentioned I was going to ask about all the places you're selling your shells and you are selling them in a lot of places, aren't you? Um, which yeah, for two years on, I think that's amazing.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. I guess I, I'm learning all the time and, um, it's, it's a. You live and learn with wholesale because you obviously have to adjust your prices and, um, the wholesalers have their own sort of, um, barriers and VAT and, and things they've got or their overheads to consider. So, um, it's got to be worthwhile supplying them. Um, but obviously I want to have the few key wholesaler outlets. So Whitstable is a key one. My home turf, Tonbridge is a key one. Tunbridge Wells is great. Um, so yeah, I, I kind of. I don't want to expand that part of it too much. Um, and that's why I've really invested in my own sort of shop window as well. And of course, um, I love working on bespoke commissions. Um, quite a few people have come to me and said, you know, we've got this really special memory of a loved one. Um, we'd like to have this, um, can you put his photo on a shell or his painting on a shell? So I've done that. Um, that all started actually when someone came to me and said, um, uh, my father's passed away, but he loved going to the old Neptune pub on the beach in Whitstable. And, um, we'd love to get that on the shell. So that's where that all started.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's really lovely. I was going to ask about the bespoke orders because it's really nice you're going to offer that. And as you say, when you're selling wholesale, I guess you're having to send more, I don't want to say generic because I know each of your shelves is unique, but it's, you know, you're, I guess you're, yeah, they're not as personal, are they?

Debbie Scott:

No, that's right. But I do try and tailor each, um, sort of, uh, the designs to each outlet. So, for example, Tunbridge Castle like, uh, the Union Jack ones and they stocked the Coronation shells that I did. Um, the Silver Sheep in Tunbridge Wells on Chapel Place. They like, um, really quirky, funky styles, um, to match the sort of persona and image of their shop. Um, so yeah, and, and I, I always tailor to customers.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's really amazing you're able to do that. And, um, I do want to talk a little bit more about the wholesale side, if that's okay. So are you wholesaling mainly to small, to smallish independent retailers?

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, on the whole, um, and they come and go. I mean, sadly the zero waste, um, shop at the cafe on the Pantiles, um, recently closed down. Everyone's got their own sort of cost of living struggles. So, um, they do come and go. But, um, fortunately I still have the, um, outlet at, uh, the Silver Sheep in Tunbridge Wells. And ideally, actually, I try and give exclusivity to one, um, shop per town. Um, yeah, so, and then, um, the focus really is on, um, Whitstable because it's the home of the British oyster aswell. Um, it's great having Tonbridge Castle. Um, like I say, I like to, I like to support my own local community, so it's good to have, um, um, some prominence in my own town as well.

Vicki Weinberg:

And I think also the town likes to promote local artists as well. I think that's because obviously I live in Tonbridge too. So I think that's really, I do know that, you know, the local artists and community is important and people like to support you. So that's also really good. Um. I've got, I've got a practical question about shells, but as you, while we're on wholesale, I'd love to know a little bit about pricing because you mentioned pricing for wholesale. I would say pricing in general. Um, how do you approach it Debbie? The reason I'm asking is that your products, as you've explained, are really unique. They're also really time intensive. I'm sure it takes you quite a long time to, you know, to get, go from a raw, not sure raw is the right word, shell to this beautiful finished item. How does that factor into your pricing? So I know that can be an issue for lots of handmade businesses.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like, you've got to get over imposter syndrome. You've got to believe in your own self worth and think, hang on a minute. It's taken me like, two weeks plus to create this batch of shells. And it doesn't matter whether I'm doing one shell or forty shells, it still takes two weeks because of the whole process. You can't speed it up. Um, I'd say, I take it, it's really time intensive. It's a real labour of love. But I do love it. So that's great. Um, you've got to remember the time it takes to actually search for the shells, go to Whitstable, spend a day looking for them, like, trudging around at low tide, getting really dirty. Um, the cleaning, the cleaning, I must say, is the bit I like least. You've got to get out the scrub, all the because obviously it's a source of food. It's got the oyster attached by a muscle and you've got to get rid of all the remnants of that scrub, bleach, um, leave to dry in the sun. And then I file them to make the edges nice and smooth. Um. The products I actually use are really expensive. So the resin is probably my biggest outlay. Um, packaging is also very expensive. Um, as is the actual, I use real gold leaf to apply the gilt around the edge. Um, so that's all the costs I've got to consider as well. And then obviously there's my time on top. Um, I'd say the sort of rarity of the shell. So you might get a real whopper that you're not going to find very often. So you're going to price that a bit higher. Um, so generally, if I've got one of those really big shells that's hard to come by, I'd say that's 30, a large one is 25, a medium is 20, and then the smaller ones are 15. They're the sort of prices I use at my craft markets and on my website. Um, with wholesalers, you know, it's down to you to establish that relationship. Um, generally, you don't really want to go below a 60, 40 ratio in terms of pricing there, because then it just, it's no longer worth your while. I mean, I guess you've got to think about, um, establishing your brand. Wholesale is good from that perspective, but again, you can't really go below that ratio.

Vicki Weinberg:

Thank you so much for explaining all of that. And you also, just so you know, you answered my practical question, which was, I was going to say, where'd you get the shells? So you answered that. Thank you.

Debbie Scott:

Well I can elaborate a little bit more because, um, I like to. It that it is from an eco perspective, I like to say that I am sort of giving them a new life lease of life, um, from restaurants. Um, so I've got a really good relationship with a seafood restaurant called Pebbles on the Beach in Bexhill on Sea, and they saw my shells on Instagram and said, could you put our logo on our scallop shells because, and we want to use them as sort of seafood platters. And they also serve up the, the billions and chocolates on them as well. Um, and they actually keep their, um, scallops that are from Rye, um, for me. And then I, uh, decorate them and then they resell them in their shop, in their restaurant, sorry. So that's great. And also, um, Verdigris and Tunbridge, um, uh, sometimes keep their oyster shells for me because otherwise these beautiful shells are just going to go in the bin. So there's that sort of upcycling, giving them a new lease of life. And then, um, yeah, I mean, we love just looking on the beach and you know, it doesn't matter if it's a shell or sea glass or pebble or driftwood or fossil or crystal. It's just fun, a fun family day out to go looking for shells as well.

Vicki Weinberg:

It's so nice that you mentioned that your daughter likes doing that with you. I think that's lovely.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you just develop an eye and she has got an incredible eye for crystals and fossils and, and, uh, she's actually busy, um, developing her own business. She's only eight, but, um, she's been a bit inspired by what I do. And she's developed her own website called bunnyfish. co. uk, which is actually, um, uh, sort of merchandise, t shirts and drinks bottles and key rings and all stuff kids like, um, but we have pet bunnies and pet fish. So she's, um, developed bunny fish, but a lot less, she uses AI with her dad to develop the products. But, um, luckily for her, it's all based on drop shipping. Whereas mine is really labour intensive. So, um, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg:

I'm super impressed. I'm going to go and have a look at that immediately as soon as we finish recording, I'm going to go to bunnyfish. co. uk.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. I'm just really proud that, you know, a little bit of this sort of entrepreneurial spirit has rubbed off on her at a really early age, so hopefully, um, yeah, she'll go somewhere.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's super impressive. And thank you for explaining your pricing process as well, because I, something I see quite a lot with businesses that hand make their products is accounting for the materials, but maybe not accounting for the time. And so I think it's really great that you've, from the start, sounds like you factored that in.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, I'm, I'm still, you know, I probably don't factor it in enough, but I'm just very aware that there is a cost of living crisis. Um, and I do want my products to be affordable. Um, I know that they will last forever. And they should be, um, a pretty unique gift that the recipient probably hasn't already got. But, um, um, yeah, I want them to be, um, affordable, um, as Christmas presents or teacher presents or what have you. So, um, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg:

No, I think they're great. And it, do you find, because you mentioned about, um, you know, whether you make them one or you make them in batches, just practically, I'm just curious, is it for you, is it more time efficient and cost effective to make them in batches rather than sit there working on one?

Debbie Scott:

I'm kind of going a bit crazy at the moment because I've got like Christmas markets, they're looming and um, I'm just trying to make my, my day jobs really busy, but I basically never sit down and watch telly. So in an evening I'm just busy making shells. Um, and, uh, yeah, I guess. Um, a batch of maybe 30, probably can't go much beyond 40 because at the end of the day, I don't have a studio. I'm just using my craft room is the spare room in the house I've taken over. I think most people like me start off working on the kitchen worktop and then the rest of the family get really annoyed with, in my case, shells being everywhere. So now I'm sort of limited to the spare room in the house, which I've turned into my craft studio. So I can't really do more than say 40 at a time. And that's really going some, but yeah, there'd be no point in making five because you've got to mix up all the resin, which as I say is really expensive. So you, you've got to mix it up and, and use it. You can't, you can't throw it in the bin, it'd be a waste. So yeah.

Vicki Weinberg:

And I suppose as well, if you're washing five shells, you might as well be washing 20 shells.

Debbie Scott:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg:

Well, that's really interesting. It's great to hear that you found a process that works for you as well.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. You live and learn. You always, I must say, I've got my first ever shells that I decorated and I will probably always keep those because they, they mean something to me, but I look back on them and think, oh gosh, I could have done that better. I could have done that differently. You live and learn and you discover new materials, new gold leaf, new resins, new techniques all the time. And you just get better at what you do and more critical of your work. Quality control, you know, you're always raising the bar.

Vicki Weinberg:

I think that makes sense though, because I think when you're hand making, of course, the more you do it, the better you're going to get it.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah, definitely.

Vicki Weinberg:

Um, I'd love to talk a little bit about your day job, if you don't mind Debbie, because you mentioned that you have a PR and communications agency. So I thought any excuse to ask more questions. Um, so I would love to just talk a little bit about PR and particularly PR for small businesses. Um. So, first of all, I'd love to know how due, do you do much PR for? Um, I, I really struggle to say, Sheila sells seashells.

Debbie Scott:

I know, who would pick a tongue twister for their business name, eh! Um, do you know, I need to be better at practicing what I preach. I was, um, looking at my SEA yesterday and I'm just like, it needs to, it needs to improve. Um, and it's just, it just comes down to time. So I do think that I have a good website. Um, I must thank my husband because he's very techie and has helped a lot there. Um, but in terms of keeping the website up to date, you know, you've really got, I've got to get the Christmas market dates on it, for example. Um, but I will be updating with all my new products very soon actually, ahead of those markets. Um, I would say network, um, in terms of my one piece of, um, advice for, um, small businesses, be it PR businesses or, or any business. There are really, there are a lot of really good local groups out there. Um, you can find them on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And then you go along to one and you might kind of think, oh, I can't really be bothered. I'm just going to stay at home and, you know, not go out and talk to people. I don't know, but if you make yourself, it's actually fun and you'll probably come across another network that you didn't know about and there's all these people out there doing really good stuff, inviting you along to, um, events that they've organized and you get to meet people, you get to make useful contacts, there's useful opportunities, um. Yeah, I'd say keep the old imposter syndrome in the box because it always creeps in and self doubt and is it, should I really be charging this much now or are my shells worth this much? It's like, stop it, shush, of course they are, you've got to believe in yourself. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'd be careful about offers that come to you. Like, um, there's always this sort of not scam emails, but you get bombarded by emails offering you SEO services or what have you, or website services. Well, just be, be a bit wary because some of them, I don't know, I, I, I've spent money on paid ads before that haven't yielded much return. And I look back thinking they were expensive. I shouldn't have done that, but you live and learn. So, um, yeah, my, my best piece of advice is just get yourself out there, talk to people, have fun and network.

Vicki Weinberg:

I think that's great advice. And coming back to what you were saying about, you know, whether you want someone to help with a website or SEO, I think network is also a great way to get recommendations for people to work with as well, because as you say, um, the people that come to you may not necessarily be the best or most qualified people. They might be brilliant. But they might not be, but there's nothing quite like word of mouth is there? And I mean, I found out about you through, you know, through word of mouth. Someone you met recommended you to come on the podcast. And I think that's kind of, that's, that's a nice way for things to work, isn't it? Because we all feel a bit better when someone's recommended by someone that we know.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I went along to, um, that group that you just referred to and, um, I could have easily just stayed at home, but I went off to Tunbridge Wells and I had a really nice morning just working alongside like minded people and obviously for me, it benefited both my businesses, my communications business and my craft business. And, um, yeah, it was really, really good. So I'm glad I went along.

Vicki Weinberg:

No, it's great. And as you say, it's hard sometimes to make yourself do it, but there are always benefits. Particularly when, as you alluded to earlier, a lot of the things we need to be doing, so whether it's working on our SEO websites or PR, um, often just falls aside because we're so busy doing what we're doing.

Debbie Scott:

Yeah. I mean, I, what I do, I guess it's quite solitary. Um, it's very therapeutic and I, but I do enjoy the social side of things. So that's why I enjoy the markets. I enjoy dropping into wholesalers. I, um, I've actually run some workshops, um, so the last workshop I ran was at the Arty Farty Retreat in Southborough, um, which was great. Um, I also ran one at the Ella Bella restaurant in Tonbridge. Um. So they're really good because then you can sort of share your love and, and help other people, um, enjoy the sort of love of crafting with shells as well. So that's good. And I'm really looking forward to the markets just where you meet customers, get customer feedback as well. Um, and there can be Christmas markets, so that should be nice and fun too. It's all a juggle. It's a, it's a massive juggle with the day job. Family, you know, but I just, you know, just go for it. You know, we're all busy, aren't we? But just, just have a go and see where it leads to.

Vicki Weinberg:

And it sounds like you really enjoy it as well. And that's also really important. Like if you were the sort of person who didn't enjoy going to markets. You know, for any reason, then I guess you would maybe put more focus in your website, for example, but it sounds like you love going out and meeting customers. I think your products are so unique as well. It must be nice for customers to see them in real life and be able to feel them and get a good sense of them. But I think it sounds to me like you're leaning into the things you enjoy. And I think that's really important.

Debbie Scott:

You've got to, and you've got to stay in control and kind of, um, do what's right for you as well. Um, it's nice to go to the markets because you can talk to other, um, stallholders. And you can get, um, recommendations from them. You can find out which markets are worth doing, which markets aren't. Because some of them can be, you know, a bit disappointing and you, you give up a lot of time to do a market. A lot of preparation psychologically as well. You've got to like get yourself in the right headspace to go and spend a day, perhaps in the rain, talking to people nonstop and being on your feet. So it's the hard work and you've got to have enough stock as well. You've got to really, that's why I'm a bit like, oh, Christmas markets. You've got to have so much stock ready to go. Um, and all your packaging ready. Um, but yeah, it's, I just love that social element of it. So.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's really good. And coming back to, I've got one more question on your day job, is, do you have any PR advice for small product businesses? Because I know that's part of what you do day to day. So I'm just wondering, I love to get as much as possible out of this Debbie.

Debbie Scott:

Yes, of course. Um, well, obviously the social media side of things, it's just, um, just keep on top of it. I mean, if you can, um, even preload your, um, sort of accounts with some posts ready to go over the next few days, and that's great. Um, obviously try and be strategic. So try and, um, think, um, have sort of themes to your posts, especially in the run up to Christmas and then in 2024. Um, create content. So create content for your website, which again, I need to be better at myself. Um, blog, blog and try and write a useful blog that's answering someone's sort of questions or finding a solution to their problems. Um, and yeah, like I said, just network, put yourself out there. Promote yourself through you physically getting out rather than being insular and staying at home. Um, yeah, and one thing leads to another. Keep pushing on those, on those doors. And one of them might open and, um, you might find a client in the most unlikely, unlikely of places, you know? And, um, the more you, um, you can build your sort of repertoire and write up your case studies and write up about clients and have that content on your website and signpost to your website, maybe for your social media, um, it's going to get you more and more noticed and hopefully more work in the future.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's so helpful. Thank you. And I think what I'm taking for what you said is, is about just putting yourself out there, which I think when you are working alone, particularly if you're, you know, you're. you're sitting there and you're making your products, I guess it is quite solitary. So I think that's really good advice to just make yourself and your products more visible. Um, because unfortunately it's like unless you do that, I think it's hard, it's harder for people, definitely for people to find you. Isn't it? I mean, there's so much out there at the moment. Um, there's so much content and so much, so many businesses and there's a lot, there's a lot going on. So I think now more than ever, we probably have to actually make an effort to get seen.

Debbie Scott:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I would just say just go for it. Um, um, yeah, just have your plan, be strategic, know where you want to spend your money, know how you want to spend your time and, um, have some key events in the diary and just keep sort of being proactive and pushing in the right direction.

Vicki Weinberg:

That's brilliant. Thank you so much, Debbie.

Debbie Scott:

Thank you.

Vicki Weinberg:

Thank you for everything you've shared. I'm going to make sure we link to everything that we've spoken about in the show notes for this episode. So we're going to link to your products business and also to your communications business as well. So people can come and have a look at both.

Debbie Scott:

Brilliant.

Vicki Weinberg:

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg. com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.