Creating a tech product – with Liam Murphy – Stix Mindfulness

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicky Weinberg, product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses.

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Let's get started. Today I am talking to Liam Murphy from Sticks. Mindfulness Sticks is the world's first handheld sensory product designed to encourage children to take control of their wellbeing by making mindfulness fun. The stick remotes use audio haptic feedback and calming lights to guide kids through fun and interactive therapeutic activities involving balancing deep breathing guided meditations and more. Companion app gamified experience rewarding children for practicing mindfulness. I had a really great conversation with Liam. I found his story really interesting. Liam explains how this whole product was actually part of his project in the last year of university. And since then he's done lots of work. Um, he sought investment, gone through rounds of crowd funding and um, and it is now a product that you can buy. Um, I focus say I found the whole thing fascinating. Liam is the first guest I've had on who sold a product that is both a physical product and a tech product because there is the app side to his product as well. And yeah, I think this is a really fantastic, interesting conversation and I would love now to introduce you to Liam. So, hi Liam. Thank you so much for being here.

Liam Murphy: 00:01:34

Hi Vicky. Thanks for having me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:35

You're welcome. Can we start by you? Please give an introduction to yourself, your business, and what you sell.

Liam Murphy: 00:01:40

Sure. My name's Liam. I'm the co-founder of Stix mindfulness, and we've created a product that makes mindfulness fun for kids through interactive technology. So the product is two handheld devices that guide children through, um, sort of audio-based meditations that interactive and involve movement. So we have activities that focus on balancing deep breathing, guided meditations and more, and the sticks themselves sort of provide audio, um, and sensory feedback through lights and aps. Whil also, uh, gameifying the whole experience on the app afterwards. So it's, the idea is to make mindfulness fun. We launched the product in February this year, so we're selling through our website. Um, and yeah, it's been amazing seeing it in the kids' hands and um, sort of seeing the product turn to life.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:26

That's brilliant. Thank you. Um, and let's start right from the beginning, Liam and what inspired you to create Stix?

Liam Murphy: 00:02:33

So I'm a product designer by trade. I studied product design in Brighton University and my final year project was focusing on alternatives to medication for kids of A D H D. Um, and that was inspired by my brother's ADHD growing up and his experience with medication and it not working for him. And now it does work for many children. Um, but for him he didn't like taking it and. Was worse side effects than the ADHD itself. So he had to learn how to deal with his ADHD and going through that. As an older brother, when you're young and you don't really understand what's going on, but when you're old and realize, you know, the struggles he went through, that inspired me to look into exploring alternatives for medi, uh, to medication for other kids. Uh, growing up and as a person who practices mindfulness myself, um, I was quite interested in exploring how mindfulness can help children. With ADHD or just children in general and went through various stages of research, ideation, development, and nor, um, to create a very early concept with the Stix device, which looks nothing like what it is today. Um, but it was the end of the university project. Um, and that was sort of how it got to, uh, a sort of basic, um, prototype at the start. So yeah, all, all inspired by my younger brother.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:51

Oh, that's amazing. I'm really lovely as well. And let's, we'll talk a little bit more about the, sort of the creation side of the product in the moment, if that's okay. But, um, first let's touch on a little bit about how, why mindfulness is so important for children. Um, cuz you mentioned you practice mindfulness yourself, so if you wouldn't mind just speaking a little bit about the benefits of it.

Liam Murphy: 00:04:11

Course. So, I mean, when I was practicing it recently, um, well when I was at university I was doing it for stress and anxiety around exams and sort of hand ins. And I found it particularly useful and it made me think, why didn't we practice this when we were younger? We didn't do anything like that at school, and I'm pretty sure they're introducing it now into schools and that's part of our drive is to get Stix into schools to teach people mindfulness at a younger age. But it's so important to learn at a younger age as the teaches sort of different emotional regulation skills, uh, teaches them mental resilience, which will support 'em as they grow older. And when you realize that 50% of adults with mental health issues right now actually developed them before the age of 14, which shows we need to invest more in prevention of these mental health issues, and we can start by introducing mindfulness at a young age.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:04:59

That's brilliant. Thank you. And I completely agree. I know that my, my children are still quite young. They're at primary school and I know that they've introduced breathing exercises, which I know is only one element of mindfulness, but I think is actually a good place to start and at least gives children some tools. And I know the Stix obviously give a wider range of tools for children.

Liam Murphy: 00:05:17

Yeah, I mean, so we, so product we've launched now has 12 activities built into it, and we developed those activities alongside experts at. So we had a psychology expert and a mindfulness expert that teach us the mindfulness skills that we can integrate into our technology. And so we've set out 12 activities that are split into four categories. So we focus on mindfulness of the body, the breath, uh, thoughts and feelings, and also the heart, which is a nice sort of way to sort of introduce curiosity and love and, um, Gratitude and stuff like that to children at a young age. And each of these activities involve some movements and deep breathing. So they've got, they've got that deep breathing element to to them all, but they also introduce skills that they can then take out into the world afterwards.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:03

That's brilliant. And I guess your product's quite unique as well, cause I'm just thinking that it is a physical product, as in you, I'm assuming you buy in, it comes in a box, but then there's the app that goes alongside it as well. So was that quite challenging, creating a product that had those two elements to it?

Liam Murphy: 00:06:20

Yeah, no, it really was. Um, I take you back to when we started Product as a business, it was just a screen free product. Actually, no, that's, it was a product that controlled a screen, so it was, um, two remotes that controlled something on a screen, and the mindfulness activity would show you what was happening on the screen. But from speaking to parents and children, we found that the parents themselves didn't like the screen element. They liked to have more control over what the children saw. Um, and giving them a phone before bed, for example, wasn't the way they wanted their kids to pack mindfulness. Um, but the kids themselves needed some sort of extra motivation to actually do the activity. So we introduced an app that isn't necessary for the product. Uh, so you can use a product without an app and be completely screen free, but then if you want to sort of encourage a child to keep using it and gamify the experience of the app. So by completing an activity, you sync up with the app, earn some stars, which you can then use to customize your own monster avatar. But in, in terms of sort of developing both the hardware and an app, I think the most difficult thing is the stick of two remotes. So they talk to each other and then those two remotes also speak to the app. So, so three way conversations, which is much more difficult than just having a sort of phone to device. Um, source of communication is the three way piece, which was very difficult for us and we had to get over several, um, technological sort of humps and setbacks that we had throughout the journey. Um, but, and so I'll give you an example. Having two products that speak to each other, they have to be in sync. Otherwise, even if it's just a fraction of a second, it drives you crazy cause you've got a voice that's talking on one side and it sounds like an echo on the other. Um, but then this also happens to pair up the app afterwards, um, just through a whole load of challenges that, um, wouldn't have been there had we only just developed one product.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:16

So you mentioned that you are, you know, you were studying product design, um, but I guess there's a big technology aspect to this. So did you have to put in a team of people to help, um, move this idea forward? Because it sounds like just such a, a massive undertaking because Yeah. I thought I don't need to tell you why. It just does. So was this something where you had to put in a lot of other resources to, to get this made?

Liam Murphy: 00:08:40

So when we started, we, we actually started by applying to an accelerator program. The central research laboratory and they essentially helped us for six months to build the product into the business, but also support us with the product development team. And they helped us develop the basic concept and turn it into something a bit more, um, a bit more developed for, um, pitching to investors and showing kids that you can, showing, showing the kids how it works. Um, and through that period, yeah, we had a really supportive team from the accelerator. And that helped us get to a point where we could then, um, try and reach out and build a team. So we, um, were successful with applying for a grant, which helped us hire an engineer and an app developer. And then from there we, um, worked on a CTO who sort of led for some technological developments. And yeah, so the team's grown to about five or six now, um, which we wouldn't have been able to do without them.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:38

Wow. And it feels like that's happened relatively quickly as well. I'm trying to keep, like trying to keep track of the time scales, but it feels like you've done this pretty quick.

Liam Murphy: 00:09:46

No, so, so we've been working on this for about three years. Um, so yeah, I mean, to get product from a sketch to a, a release product in three years I think is reasonable. Um, But yeah, it wasn't, didn't happen overnight. Yeah. I I think it's quite a vast for a project, you know, that this, that's this complex.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:05

Um, so at what points are you, you mentioned this was part of your project for your last year at university, so at what point did you go, oh, actually maybe this is something I wanna do commercially?

Liam Murphy: 00:10:16

Um, so I got job straightaway from university.. Um, it's quite lucky in the fact that I can accelerate my career straight away. But as I sat there every day, it was an itch scratch and I wanted to take it further and I was typing up notes on the side, looking at maybe where I'd get it manufactured and, um, what the next steps would be to develop the concept slightly more. Um, but it wasn't something that I really knew how to take the next step towards. Um, until one day I got random email from this accelerator program that I applied to saying, We found your product online, we think we should apply. Uh, so I gave it a go and asked my dad, if you wanna come pitch it with me. Um, he was free at the time and so he came along, we pitched it together, got onto the program, and then decided actually, yeah, let's give this a go into the six months. Let's see what we can do, where we can take the concept and if it's something that at the end of it looks like it's got some legs and then we'll both full steam ahead and yeah, we got that grant at the end of it to help us hire a team and develop it product further. So, We're lucky with that. Absolutely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:22

And it sounds like this is an accelerator program in the, you have the pitch to join. Do you have any sense of, and I know you, you, this might be a tricky question, but do you have any sense of what you did or why your product was of interest to the accelerator? I'm just trying to think if there's anything that people can take away.

Liam Murphy: 00:11:37

Yeah, I think the story behind why you want to do this. Uh, there were so many great products there that, you know, the product alone isn't gonna get you, you know, the investment you want or the grants or anything. You need the story behind it, the passion, the inspiration, um, and the drive really, because that's what people buy into at the start when you haven't got a fully working product, people buying into you the story and the passion and so they can get involved in it as well. Provide their support to help you get it to that stage to actually go.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:06

Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. And when you're talking about the accelerator program, the beginning, you were talking about investment. Was that part of your strategy? Uh, have you been able to get investment.

Liam Murphy: 00:12:18

Yeah, we've done a free seed round. Um, and it was very difficult. Must say, um, when you are, there's always a hurdle you can jump over to sort of be better. And even now we're looking to carry out our seed round and we're, we're thinking, well, you know, we could do this to make ourselves slightly better before going out and trying to raise money. But there comes a point where you need to go, no, let's put all our effort into raising the money. We've done enough. Um, there is always better. Um, and so yeah, you need to have that sort of talk with yourself and work out what you wanna achieve before going to raise money and what people are gonna expect from you before you take their money.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:57

Yeah. And I imagine that's a really hard balance between what you want and what you are prepared to offer as well.

Liam Murphy: 00:13:04

Yeah, exactly. And um, especially in this economy now, I'm sure investors have tried to drive down all sorts of valuations. Um, And so it's just make sure you are firming your belief of what you have and what you value business at, and finding the right investor to suit that, that valuation.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:13:22

Yeah. And so when, when was the project actually available? Uh, product actually available to, to buy. When did, when was it launched?

Liam Murphy: 00:13:29

So we launched it in February. Um, it was a bit of a tight deadline. We, so we did a Kickstarter campaign in May last year, and that helped fund the manufacturer of the first batch of products. And so we were delivering those in February whilst also launching February. So it was a real tight turnaround to build these products in-house, which is, we got them assembled in the uk, so manufactured in the uk, assembled in our office. Uh, so it was a lot of work putting them together, getting them out the door whilst also launching to the public, um, for them to buy off our website. But yeah, we, we launched different before Children's Mental Health Week and been selling since so, That's been, it's been a real journey way so far.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:10

That sounds like good timing for launch. I assume that was strategic.

Liam Murphy: 00:14:13

It was. And we had to meet that deadline, which is why I busy.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:19

And is that, I guess, tying it into an event, like that's probably helped. Um, cause I've had. Businesses on here before who sold a unique product. And I would say your product's unique. Um, I haven't seen anything like it anyway. Um, what are some of the challenges you face with with selling a product that's completely unique? Because I'm assuming, um, and know, know this is a big question. We can always break it down that there'll be lots of parents who haven't heard of mindfulness, who dunno why it's good for their children. So there's that side of it and then there's also educating them on what your product is, what it does. Um, that's quite a lot isn't it, to convey.

Liam Murphy: 00:14:54

Yeah. And it's really difficult to know whether you are conveying the right information, whether they understand that information. And we found out the hard way cause we launched, thought our website was perfect, having just done a redesign. Um, but then we found that, you know, parents were spending ages on one certain page, which you didn't even think was relevant. For example, the returns page of the policy, they're spending two minutes on average on that page. And we were wondering, you know, how can we prevent that? Why are they doing that? Um, and so what we did was add a 14 day money back guarantee to the main store page in Big Bold as a badge where you can see it straight away. And that added a level of sort of, um, belief in the product and, um, makes them realize, okay, if it's not something for me, I can return it and that's fine. Um, whereas for this product that's so new and they don't understand it fully, It's really difficult to invest this amount of money products, hundred 59 pounds investing that much money in the product. They dunno, they've never used it before. They've never seen it before. They dunno if it'll work. Um, and so it's trying to build that trust through various techniques like money back guarantee or, uh, testimonials and videos from users. Um, and even, um, one, one examples. Adding a booking link to our website. So if anyone wanted a, a quick call to ask a question, they could just go ahead and book whenever suited them. And that allowed them to sort of ask the questions that we wanted to hear. Cause we wanted to know what they, what we are missing from the website that they didn't understand. We would provide our time to them, tell 'em about the product. And then from that we learn to learn what we need to improve on the website.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:40

I love that idea. That is so smart. And how you found the takeup, uh, do, are you finding lots of people are booking those calls?

Liam Murphy: 00:16:47

What we're finding is more people are actually just messaging through, um, this sort of website chat and it's a, an automated response, but also comes up my phone. As soon as I see a question coming in, I'm instantly there to answer it as quick as possible. Cause I wanna get that feedback from them and make sure they understand what they're seeing. Um, so I think people just prefer that. Easier text, um, style of communication rather than actually book a call. But yeah, we've had a few conversations with people and it helped us understand, you know, the shop page may not have enough information about how the product works, and it's just about, you know, the price and delivery and what, what is, what the product is and show the benefits. Um, and so we trained through that and made adjustments to the small page in order to educate people that it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:32

Yeah, that makes sense. And how about in terms of sort of raising awareness about the product and the fact that it even exists? What are some of the things you've done there?

Liam Murphy: 00:17:42

Yeah, I mean, we've been learning throughout, we're still learning today. So, um, it's probably one of my key takeaways for today is you think we can launch straight away perfectly, but you have to keep adapting, keep changing the marks and messaging, uh, your methods of marketing. So we've launched, um, social media ads and, you know, they go through. Ups and downs of, um, sort of engagement. You get really good engagement and good sales, and then it can land and drop off without changing anything. It's about refreshing your content, making sure the people that are seeing it, that aren't buying it, and then seeing something else to convince them, um, to sort of take that sale of the line. Um, we've been doing emails just trying to educate them on what the product is, but also how it's benefiting people out there that have it. So we've got some great case studies on our website about, uh, the product supporting children's anxiety, um, and, and SATs, exams of schools in schools, stuff like that. So there's lots of information there, and it's just about guiding people to it so they can see it. That purchase.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:18:46

Yeah. And I imagine that is quite a, quite a job because as I say, it's something that parents necessarily aren't necessarily looking for. Um, so yeah, there's lots, I guess there's lots of hurdles isn't there for first people be able to find the product and then realize what the benefits are and then figure out how it works. There's actually a lot of boxes to tick. That must be a real challenge.

Liam Murphy: 00:19:03

Yeah. It's really hard to look at something you don't know exists and so people are sort of out there wanting something to support the children's mental health and to add to their toolkit of, um, Of tools that they use to support their children's mental wellbeing and without knowing what sticks is or what it does, they don't know it's there. So it's about getting out there, proving that it should be part of that toolkit. Um, and then just staying on top of the ads and with the emails to make sure getting the meshing across.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:33

Yeah. And, uh, you mentioned, uh, quite in the beginning of this call, I think you were mentioning about Stix in schools and is that something you're working on as well?

Liam Murphy: 00:19:42

Yeah, something we'll work on at the moment. So we're running about 10 trials at the moment and 10 different schools. Um, we've just completed one in collaboration with the ADHD foundation and two schools in Liverpool. And so yeah, we're just trying to get out there and learn how it's using schools because it's a completely different use case to at home where a kid can just draw up into his room and use the product when you've got a kid, uh, when you've got family. I think it's school full of 30 children and. We can only use it one at a time. It's about understanding how the teacher interact with the product, where the child takes it and uses it within the teacher there. For support. We need a tablet or a phone to activate the activities or are they happy just doing it offline and not getting the, uh, rewards? Um, when I say offline, that's the screen free load that we have. And so the 10 trials we've be doing has been about learning, you know, how it's used in that that case. So now we can go and pitch it to more schools and say, we've had these schools use it this way and it's helped children in this way and that's why we should have it more school.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:48

I, I love, by the way, how ambitious you are. I think this is amazing. Thank you. And, but it is so important. I can see why it's so important and it's great, like it means so much to you as well. I really like your story about, you know, your reason behind creating the product. What does your brother think of it, by the way?

Liam Murphy: 00:21:02

Oh, he loves it. He doesn't actually use it. He's only 18 months younger than me, so yeah, it was never, it was never designed. For him, per se. It was just, it was inspired by him. Yeah, I know what you mean. But it's, it's nice I guess for him to think that, you know, that he was the inspiration behind it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:16

Um, what age is children, um, does it work for, by the way?

Liam Murphy: 00:21:20

Let's, so at the moment, primary school kids age five to 12. Uh, we haven't had all the kids use it and we've actually had younger kids use it, um, for the kids that are younger, so typically need more support from the parents. So maybe a four year old sitting with them, their, their parents and doing the mindfulness activities does work for them, but they just need that extra guidance. Uh, but we are looking to develop, uh, sort of teen based content as well. So, uh, that'll be something we roll out in by September.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:50

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for explaining all of that. I mean, I've, I've loved hearing more about the product and Yeah, I, I think it's fantastic and I, I'm, yeah, I'm super impressed actually, cuz I feel like it's a amazing product and there's so many elements that sort of had to come together and it sounds like you're doing brilliantly. So thank you for sharing all of that. Thanks very much. I have one more question, if that's okay there Before we finish, um, what would your number one piece of advice be, Liam, for other product creators? So anyone else listening to this, what's something you'd like them to take away?

Liam Murphy: 00:22:21

So, I mean, the one takeaway held with myself from other people throughout my journey is your idea. That's just a concept or a sketch is nothing without validation from people. So don't be scared to sort of go out there and test it and not speak to people and, and have it stated and then you improve it and sort of iterate around their comments cause other people are gonna use it and buy it in the end. However, the sort of adaption to that, from my perspective is validation from customers doesn't guarantee success. Um, you can develop something that really helps people. Um, Doesn't necessarily get purchased by them. And you need to work out why. And you need to constant reiterate on that as well. And pivot maybe to a different marketing strategy, different route to the market, um, and sort of get it. You can build something, test it with people. They'll love it. They won't buy it. And so it's how will they buy it? And you know that route, which, um, you will get to, but it just takes a bit time. It's not, it's not perfect. Shut it off.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:22

That's a really good point. Thank you for that. Because I talk a lot to people about validating their ideas and making sure that, you know, you're creating what customers want. I hadn't actually considered the fact that even if you're considering what customers want, they might not necessarily buy it. And do you think there's any way of finding that out bef Unless you're actually asking them for money?

Liam Murphy: 00:23:41

Yeah, there are tools you can do. I mean, you could maybe sell them a prototype with the guarantee that they'll get the full product when it's available. Um, so that's one technique we tried. However, it's really difficult to do because, you know, parting, parting weigh with a hundred pounds for when didn't work properly. It does half of what it should do and what it will do. Um, and telling them they'll get the full product when it's, when it's ready, but they don't know when that will be, is quite a hard, uh, commitment. But not for families in our case to make. Um, there are different techniques that we try. They're all, they're all difficult and none of 'em are perfect, but. Another example is setting up a fixed door page and getting them to get through and take their card out and validate through a purchase and then refunding them. But again, you are losing their trust with people who have gone and paid you x amount of money, um, to get a refund straight away. It can annoy people and sometimes that's worse than, um, actually validating him. Um, so yeah, it really depends on the product and, and the approach you take with him.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:46

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I guess your, I suppose your Kickstarter campaign probably did that to some extent because people were going to get products at the end, but they had to give some money up front. So I guess that must have, have helped to some extent.

Liam Murphy: 00:25:00

Yeah, hundred percent. And because Kickstart is such a well known, um, sort of website to go to, people know that's the process. So that's why I would recommend it started. Cause you can test your marketing and test the customer base by selling them the product. They get discount by pitching in early. Um, you get the money upfront so you can go and manufacture it and it allows you to test that market. Um, and we just derisks it for both sides.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:30

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I know I said that was the last question, but do you actually have one more, sorry. Which is, do you have any advice for everyone running Kickstarter campaigns? Obviously you did brilliantly with yours. Was there anything in particular you think you did or anything you did actually you'd recommend people don't do.

Liam Murphy: 00:25:46

That's really hard one, there's brilliant. Let me write you an encyclopedia on it. Um, number one takeaway that starts is there, there's so many resources out there. Um, don't fall for the track of going for a really extensive agency because you can do a lot of it yourself. Um, however, saying that, Don't burn your money away thinking you can do it all when there might be someone who can help you for a small fee, uh, to maybe run your ads and get 'em perfect so that you're, uh, reaching out to the right customer base. Um, so there's a, a line between sort of paying loads, for support, not paying anything to support and finding a sort of middle ground.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:28

Thank you. That really makes sense. I think it's a case of maybe knowing what your strengths are and the areas in which you'd need support. Because I think it's fair to say that most of us aren't good at everything.

Liam Murphy: 00:26:39

Yeah. And you can try to say to do much at once.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:41

Yes, for sure. Yes. That was very true. Well, thank you so much. That actually really was the last question. Um, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed speaking to you and hearing more about your product, so thank you.

Liam Murphy: 00:26:53

Thank you for your time. Hope. Hope the listeners out there go and check us out.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:58

Yeah, I'm sure they will. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do you remember that? You can get the fullback catalog and lots of free resources on my website, vicky weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful.

Liam Murphy: 00:27:17

Thank you again and see you next week.