Continually adapting your business – with Holly Watson, The Zero Waste Company

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:08

Welcome to the, Bring Your Product Ideas To Life podcast, practical advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products. Here's your host Vicki Weinberg. Today on the podcast, I'm talking to Holly Watson. Holly is the co-founder of the Zero Cafe and Emporium, a plastic free cafe in community space in the heart of Tunbridge Wells. The Ethical Emporium provides an opportunity to offer local independent designers, makers, and brands to showcase their sustainable artists and wears all under one roof. Along with co-founder and best friend Charlotte Bowyer. Holly is passionate about living a plastic-free lifestyle and encouraging others to do the same. I had a really great conversation with Holly, as you will hear in this conversation. Um, Holly and Charlotte's business has pivoted many times over the past few years. Um, partly from necessity, obviously, um, with COVID. And Holly also talks about some choices they've made to do things a little differently. Um, and I really found their business model fascinating. Um, the zero cafes actually, and now the Ethical Emporium actually quite local to me, I've been in there a few times and it's great to see how it's evolved over the years. So I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Holly. So hi Holly. Thank you so much for being here.

Holly Watson: 00:01:29

Yeah, no problem.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:01:32

So, can we start with you, please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you do?

Holly Watson: 00:01:37

Absolutely. So, um, I'm Holly Watson. I'm one half of the Zero Waste Company. So I've run it with my business partner. Um, Charlotte Bowyer, who is in the shop today. Um, so the Zero Waste Company is a sustainable vegetarian and vegan cafe and Emporium on the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells. Um, and we basically, it is kind of like running two businesses. So we have. The cafe side of things, which is all kind of homemade onsite, um, kind of delicious vegetarian and vegan food, um, that we try and cater to as many kind of allergies and dietary parts as possible. But it's, it's really, it's kind of proper good cafe food. So, you know, toasties and soups and salads and things like that. Um, and then the ethical Emporium is our retail space, which, um, Is a kind of community based space for, um, local brands and sellers to sell they're ethical and sustainable.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:34

Amazing. Thank you. Now I know when you set up zero waste, which was two, three years ago, Holly.

Holly Watson: 00:02:41

Yeah. Almost we're in our third year now. Yeah. Oh, project.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:44

I know that when you originally set it up, um, it was a slightly different model. So do you want to talk about what inspired you to start Zero Waste initially and what the business looked like almost three years ago?

Holly Watson: 00:02:55

Yeah, sure. Um, so myself and Lottie were both when we met, we both. Eight month old baby boys. So we'd kind of met as freelancers and had kind of common ground on the fact that we were, I mean, I kind of jokingly sound myself profess hippy. So I tend to kind of be more, you know, I'm always trying to sort of think of ways of like reducing waste and being really environmentally conscious and things like that.

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And Lottie is very similar. Um, and we both were really frustrated with the. Kind of almost like the, the forced options of when you have children of how much the packaging of everything increases, the kind of the throw away mentality. Everything is, you know, single use disposable and that whole culture. It's very hard to get out of. So we end up. Having a really good chat one day and talking about how we were trying to make environmentally conscious decisions. And that actually it's really hard to do because there's nowhere that you can really just go and shop easily whilst, you know, thinking about not buying lots of plastic or whatever. Um, and so we kind of, the, the zero waste company was born out of a frustration, I guess, of wanting to have access to alternatives to the supermarket in and. The kind of disposable culture that we live in. Um, and initially we were kind of, we didn't really know what to do. And zero waste shops were quite a, a kind of a concept that was just coming into sort of the light. If you, you know, people were starting to kind of know about them, understand them. So we did our research, some market research, um, and then found. The place on the Pantiles, which, you know, with hindsight, you'd go, Hmm. There's not much parking cuz that's the thing everyone says to us now when they come shopping, it's like, there's not much parking there is, but it's not on your doorstep as it is with some, you know, some of the other places in some Tunbridge Wells. But um, and we basically, yeah, we decided to create a traditional zero waste shop, which is a refill shop. So, um, initially it. If you've ever been in our space, it's got a, kind of a, a big front space and a smaller backspace. So we decided to the whole shop was the front part. And it was, you know, wall to wall gravity units filled with things like bread, bread, not bread, no pasta, rice, grains cereals, nuts, everything you could kind of imagine that you buy in bulk. Um, and the way the zero waste model works is that you bring a container, you weigh it, fill it, weigh it again. Um, And pay for it. So you're only paying for the good, you're not paying for the packaging. So that's kind of how we started off. And, you know, it was amazing. We opened in November, 2019 and we had a really, really good response from the community straight away. It was, it was brilliant. Um, people really coming on board with it and wanting to change the hope shopping habits and wanting to understand you know, what, what it was. We did, um, we converted like the back part of the shop into a very small cafe at that point. And we just were like, we'll just sell coffee and cake. Um, that's kind of how we started. Um, unfortunately COVID came along, um, which is, I think the story for so many businesses who started out around that time for us, it was difficult because we didn't have any kind of buffer. We'd only been open like five months and. We just started to get, you know, a following and people coming in when obviously COVID shut a lot of that down. We were really fortunate that we were technically, at that point, we were classed as essential because we sold food. Um, and we were able to keep open during that time and, you know, started offering fruit and veg and deliveries and trying to service the community because no one, I think knew at that point they was gonna go on for as long as it did. Um, We thought it might be a couple of months, but the whole business model had to change to allow for what happened during that time. Um, so we just kind of adapted, but when things reopened again in 2020 in the summer for that brief period, um, we realized that there seemed to be more kind of more people wanting the cafe side and ask us where our lunch menu was and things like that. So we kind of adapted as much as we could. We started offering. Proper food if you like. Um, and we hired a, a chef, Jen who basically does everything for us. She's incredible me and Lottie, don't come from chef or cafe backgrounds. So she, basically, we kind of, we luckily got her, she's worked in, you know, Cafes and restaurants in London and she's amazing, but she'd moved to Westerham and she's ours now so basically she does all of our kind of vegan, vegetarian food she makes for us and only us. Um, and so the kind of the cafe offering started to increase. Um, but it's, it's a funny thing, cuz it's hard for us to sort of not blame COVID, but what ended up happening was especially during the winter months, I think people with the lockdowns constantly coming into play and then not being locked down and then you are, and then it was tiers and all of this kind of thing. I think people's habits just changed and everyone reverted to shopping online. And it got to kind of when, whenever that last lockdown lifted, um, that we realized that the shopping habits for zero waste side of things haven't picked up as much as we'd have liked. Um, So we flipped the shop and the cafe so that the cafe became the bigger space and the shop became the smaller space. Um, and then I guess that did have a bit of a knock on effect because then there was less stuff to sell. And then it's a funny thing. Like it's hard to take, like to admit when you realize that something's not working as a business and going, um, this isn't doing what we had hoped and it took us quite a long time to, I think, kind of get to the realization point that we might need to change that side of the business completely, which is then what we did recently.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:02

thank you for all of that. And we'll talk about, um, how your businesses evolve shortly, but I'd love to talk a little bit more about zero waste. So just to pick up on what you were saying, just then, do you have any thoughts on perhaps why, um, the zero waste, you know, the refill element didn't pick up again after COVID

Holly Watson: 00:09:19

I think it's, we're part of a, um, A couple of groups on Facebook that are zero waste shop owners.

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Um, and we've been part of that group since we launched, you know, a few years ago. And in that time we've seen a massive influx of people. Opening shops. And then. In this last six months, I'd say there's been at least 25 that have closed. Um, it's nationwide, maybe even international. Cause there are some international people within that group, but everyone's saying the same thing and it, it does feel like COVID, it's, it's funny. It had sort of a knock on effect in two different ways. Like. It became everyone was going, oh, if you don't use it, you lose it. So they all really wanted to support small businesses and local businesses, but. It seemed a step too far to then ask them to change their shopping habits completely. So it seemed that it went from one way to the other. You either have people who wanna change their shopping habits and they're happy to make the effort cause it, it is more effort to shop that way. It is, it does require a level of planning and thinking about it. Even if you come with no containers and fill up with bags, which you're very welcome to do. Um, you've still got to decant them when you get home. You've gotta think about how you're gonna store that. You kind of need to have a bit of an idea of what you wanna buy. Um, and so I think there's a level of care and consideration that you need, that some people just don't have the mental capacity for at the moment, because of all of the other stresses that COVID has created. And. You know, people's whole, like lives changed in the sense of most people. Now haven't gone back to work full time in their offices, and everyone's kind of adapted to this new way of living where perhaps they are spending more time at home or they are, you know, they are prioritizing different things. And I think convenience, it goes a long way in terms of why people do what they do and make the choices that they make. And it is more convenient. To go to a supermarket and buy everything there and order all online and have it delivered when, you know, you're working from home on this day. And, you know, I think there's an element of that. Um, but it does seem across the board. It's not just us. It. We've seen it with people who are just zero shops we are very lucky in the sense that we have the cafe. So we've been able to adapt to, to make that, you know, more of what we offer now. Um, but those who can't do that, or haven't got that opportunity are closing because they're just not being used. Um, and I guess there's a, an element of some supermarkets have introduced refill sections, but I don't, I don't think. I think it's, it's about the mentality since COVID of what people are willing to spend time doing what they're willing to focus on. And it just doesn't seem to be the right time now for zero waste, which is a real shame. And it's it's I find it very hard to say it because obviously it was our passion for so long, but I've had to kind of come to the conclusion because, you know, we are running a business and when it doesn't make you any money at all, it's not viable. So. You know, you have to find solutions outside of that that still kind of sit within your ethoses. Yeah, it's a, it's a tricky one. I don't have all the answers.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:28

Thank thank you for though for sharing, sharing that because I hope you don't mind me asking the question. And the reason I ask is that as like, as a consumer, I have seen zero waste shops pop up just locally, you know, with the area we both in Kent, I've seen zero waste shops come and I've seen some go. And, um,

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I just found that baffling, cause it kind of felt like it probably was pre COVID. It kind of felt like it was getting popular.

Holly Watson: 00:12:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:56

And then suddenly it felt like everything changed again. And um, yeah, I, I, wasn't quite sure why, so thank you for explaining that. And as you say, that might not be the full picture, but I think it is, it's very hard.

Holly Watson: 00:13:07

It's hard to know exactly why we, I can only go on. Myself and other owners are all dis discussing as people who actually wanna run these businesses. And I guess, you know, there's probably other factors that I haven't even considered. Um, and it's a shame because there are still people who want to shop that way who are really hardcore and dedicated, but you know, it's difficult.

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So for us, when we, we made a decision. Literally very recently, I mean, last week recently to just no longer sell refill food at all. So we've, now we don't have any more gravity units in, in Zero. We still sell the refill cleaning and household products. Cause they've always maintained the same. They've always been popular and people have always come in for those. But food is a funny one. Um, so when we made that decision, it was quite hard decision to sort of essentially close that chapter completely. Um, and yet, you know, Lots of people haven't noticed or cared, but there are people who are like, oh, but this, but I used to come to you and it's heart. It's heartbreaking. Like knowing that you did have, you know, a couple of people who would really still support that, but you know, you need 20, 30 people a week, not two Yeah. So, you know, it is, it's just a decision that we have to make and it's, yeah, it's hard. It's really difficult when you know, other people have the same fashion as you, but you know,

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:28

well, like you say, it's a business and if it's the household items that are still continuing to sell, then it makes sense that those would be the ones you continue to stock. Cause I guess also, I don't know, but with anything consumable, I guess there's the sourcing. And then how long can you physically hold the stock? Yeah. Before it goes out of date, there must be a lot that goes into that.

Holly Watson: 00:14:50

The thing the, we kind of learnt the hard way that. Especially cause we used to have a huge range and we reduced a little bit when we moved from the cafe side into the shop side, like when we swapped the, the areas around, we, we lost a little bit, but not much, but the managing of the best before dates and the managing of the rotation of stock and the ordering. And, and also along with COVID, you know, and Brexit was the whole thing of. Suddenly the supplier's minimum order quantities were going from sort of being 300 pounds per order to a thousand pounds in order, which is a massive jump for a small business. And yeah, it meant you'd have to literally wait until every single thing had run out.

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Which point you're frustrating people who are like, have you still not got any porridge oats? Oh, I came last week. You didn't have it. And you're like, yeah, but I can't, I can't just buy all porridge oats. I have to buy everything. And it's a big kind of ask to, to spend a lot of money sourcing that. And then for it to sit and not be bought it's it goes against the whole waste thing. And this is what me and Lottie came to realize is that, you know, some things just, even though, you know, Kidney BES. They're not really going to go out date. They, they have to have a date on them, but they're fine. Cuz they're a dried bean and they will last years, but you can't legally sell that. So even though, you know, it's okay. You can't legally sell it. So there's a lot of, kind of red tape surrounding, you know, food and, and EHOs come in and they wanna know how you are maintaining all of your stock and all your best before all of that stuff. And it's such a huge amount of admin and time for something that doesn't essentially pay that I do understand why people just, just say I can't do it. Um, you know, maybe the answer is to find more sustainable packaging. I mean, I hate even saying that because it makes me just go, ah, like, because buying in plastic is the worst because they are single use and they are the worst kinds as well. Those particular plastics become microplastics, which are the ones that really do kill fish and get into fetus and everything else that you've seen in the news recently.

Holly Watson: 00:16:56

Um, so maybe the answer is to go back to paper card packaging or something else if this is not what people want. It's yeah, it's very hard.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:08

Yeah, it sounds, it sounds really hard and I'm, as we are talking, I'm just seeing like how much Lottie yourself have adapted over the past few years. Cause it seems like, you know, it's continually things change. Yeah. And you're having to make really hard decisions a lot. It sounds like.

Holly Watson: 00:17:26

Yeah. It's funny. It's we're both very good adapting. That's one of the, one of the things that we kind of can say about ourselves in the, you know, as business owners, we. Don't shy away from having to like make difficult decisions and hard choices and actually do things that make us feel uncomfortable, but we'd never do anything that would challenge our original ethos. So everything we've ever done business wise has always, we've got the same kind of core belief structure. So we are always kind of saying like, here's what we're gonna do. Still going to benefit the environment as opposed to, you know, harm it in any way. And. Does make an decision mean that it's going to still be beneficial to people and, you know, so we don't just kind of go, oh, it's not making so many money. We'll just do something else. Like it, there's always an environmental facts that comes into play with what we do, because I just don't feel like I could go in to work every day and call ourselves a Zero Waste Company without having the original core beliefs still. Um, and I think Lottie's the same, but we've had to kind of.

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Become slightly more business sort of minded, you know, like it would be lovely to do all of this stuff in the community and give back and not have to worry about it making any money, but it's not reality, especially when you have a business on the Pantiles that costs a fortune. And I mean, you know, we chose to set up there and in hindsight, you know, we both say sometimes it's the cost of being on the Pantiles. It's just already higher than any other place in Tunbridge Wells. And. Is it worth paying all the extra money to sort of be in that kind of location, you know, all these things, but it's, it's funny because ultimately the answer still. Yes. So we just need to make it work for us and do it in a way that still has that community feel and still challenges people's buying habits and all of this kind of thing. Like as long as we're still meeting those sort of initial, I guess. Points that we, we started out with, I I'm okay with it, but yeah, there's definitely been things, you know, we've definitely made mistakes and things that we. Learn from, but I guess every business owner has that it's

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:36

oh, absolutely. Yeah. And with the location, I can certainly see that it would be like an expensive place to be um, but I guess the, one of the advantages is that that, that flexible space you've had. So you were talking about how, you know, the cafe was small and now the cafes larger, and you've been able to really adapt that space. So I guess that is one. Plus points because I mean, I've obviously been in and it is a, it's a nice big space.

Holly Watson: 00:20:01

Yeah, it is. It's, it is a really large space and, you know, we never wanted it to have that kind of clinical cause some zero waste shops are very sort of white and, you know, clean and I kind of didn't want that. I was very much about wanting to have some of our personality, you know, I'm quite. Extrovert character. And I like, I'm very creative and I like how things look. So for me, the aesthetics of zero has been as much of a joy for me to create as the actual business itself. Um, You know, it's like, I've got wallpaper everywhere and you know, it's, it's the lighting and everything. We, we really think about it because for us, it's not just about having a shop or having a cafe. It's about creating a space. People want spend time in, and that they can hire out to have parties or whatever. So we constantly try and have as many, like, you know, Strings to our bow, if you like, as, as possible. And yeah, the adaptability of being able to move things around and having a husband who's quite handy is helpful cause my poor husband I'm like, so I need you to build me a veggie unit. I'm like, and now that veggie unit needs to become a display unit because we don't sell veggie anymore. So can you adapt it to, you know, and he just kind of like comes in and just builds stuff whenever I need him to, which is very helpful. Um, but yeah, it's, I. Sometimes having the vision, I'll often be like, I know exactly how I want it to look and then I just need someone to help me kind of do it. And Lottie's just like, just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. But we've sort of, we work quite well together in that sense. And I think, you know, if anything, I I'm really proud of the space we've created because I do love it.

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I love being there and I love how it looks and you know, I love it when people come and they're like, oh, I've never been here before. And you know, it's, it still gives me. Feeling that of excitement that I want to be there. So I think as long as we've still got that, we'll we'll carry on. We'll keep, we'll keep adapting.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:46

that's good. And, um, I will also say that I'll make sure when we send, when this episode goes live, we include some photos as well as people can actually see the space. Cause I think that be really good. So speaking of adapting, let's talk about the Ethical Emporium, um, what it is, why you're doing it and which you've touched on partly already.

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Yeah. And. Yeah, let's start there.

Holly Watson: 00:22:07

Okay. So we launched it back in April. Um, and it was basically the idea came from the fact that the model that we were currently, so the traditional retail model, as it stands is you have a space, you buy things at wholesale, you sell them at retail and you make a profit margin.

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So that's your average shop. That's what everybody does. And that's what we were doing even as a refill shop. Um, but what that does mean is that it's on you as the business owner to buy whatever stock you think people are gonna like and make sure you choose the correct stuff and, and hope it sells, and you might make a mistake.

Holly Watson: 00:22:47

So something might sit on the shelf for a while and no one wants it, or you might find something that everybody loves and you're winning. Um, but that model is although it's kind of the most stereotypical one that most people use. It's not actually the best model for. The brands that you're buying in and, and the business owner, because you can't easily make changes without either spending money. And then, you know, having to others put something on sale, if it doesn't sell or whatever. Um, but also the cash flow of paying suppliers and, and trying to manage that. So, you know, knowing you've make a certain amount of sales, but you need to pay them. And I think for us, the stress of that whilst running the cafe was, was quite intense and, and it just meant we weren't always on top of, you know, when customers were asking for stuff, we weren't even able to sometimes afford to buy something in just to see if it was gonna sell. Um, so we kind of looked back on there used to be a popup or Support Local in Tunbridge Wells, who's run by, um, a girl called Hope who has moved to Cornwall now.

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But, um, I remember shopping in her space. She ran kind of over Christmas and I spoke to her because me and Lottie had both said, you know, Ideally, what we want is to support local brands. We want to support people, designers, makers, people who don't have a shop on the Pantiles um, and see how we can get them into the shop. But obviously most of them work on the wholesale model or, or buy a return potentially that they're the kind of two main options. But instead we looked into the popup model, which is essentially making your space quite unified. So, you know, having. Because we've never with zero waste stuff. Everything's always been upcycled. Our shelves we're here. Would've figured with this. Nothing was the same. So it was a bit of a change for us, but we essentially invested in lots of kind of uniform shelving and uniform table displays. And basically we decided to contact many local, smaller brands, um, makers, people who, but they also had to have an ethical or sustainable you know, platform, I guess. And the idea was that we rented our space to them and gave them an opportunity to have products in a shop somewhere on the Pantiles, because we get a lot of tourist trade as well, and also the cafe trade. So trying to create reason for people to come into the shop area and see something new. Um, and we were really lucky because we managed to find, I think it. Eight or nine brands when we first launched, who kind of just took a bit of chance on us and said, okay, yeah, we'll, we'll give this a go. And basically we've created this Emporium now that has, I think last count. I think we've got like 18 brands in there at the moment, and we're still growing, still looking for new brands, but the idea is that rent a shelf from us. And it's just a flat fee that they pay on a weekly basis and everything they make is their own. And it was really important to us that we didn't even want to handle the kind of financial transactions or anything. So they get their money directly. So sellers literally have their own, um, profiles on our till system and whatever they sell the money goes directly into their bank account. And all we do is invoice for the shelf rental or table rental. Um, And it's been working really well. So we're kind of in month two, nearly three. Um, we, we offered, obviously, as we, as we started, we didn't, you know, where we were gonna kind of go with it. So we, you know, we, we offered some deals for people to kind of come in and just see, but we only ever asked for a two week sign up just so that people can see if it's for them. And so far, we've got some incredible brands and I'm really proud of it because it's so amazing for us to see people selling and it is selling people are coming in and, and knowing that. You know, we still learn because we, we have the shelf rental and that that's, we don't have to have any more involvement than that, which is great for us as business owners. Um, and then people can swap in and out products as they want. If they think something's gonna sell, if they wanna do promotions, if they wanna do father's day things or Easter stuff, it means that they have full autonomy over that. And, you know, essentially they can see what is popular because we send them till reports of what you know, have sold and they can make changes as appropriate. So it's working really well. And for the sellers who are currently in the Emporium, you know, they've given us some really good feedback. We promote them on Instagram and things as well, and they do the same. And it's just the loveliest collaboration that I could have wished for. And I still feel like we are kind of giving the community something and actually the space means. I like to sort of say, we're like an Ethical Oliver Bonas, so now you can come in, you can treat yourself to something you can buy gifts, you can, you know, grab something with almost like touristy. There's like Tunbridge Wells themed stuff in there as well. So it's, it's got a really beautiful mix, an eclectic mix, but mainly stuff that we would never have been able to just kind of do an, a win, you know, a bit of a whim back in the day on, on the old model. So it means that we've allowed the space to become like really eclectic. Support these incredible brands. So it's, it's, I'm really proud of it. And I'm really hoping that this is how we're gonna kind of move forward with, with the Emporium.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:15

That sounds like a great model. And as you say, it benefits everyone from a customer's point of view, you're gonna find so many things that you might not find where you definitely wouldn't find in the high street, or, you know, if you went out to Royal Victoria Place, or even if you went online, it's just really cuz lots of people I think, want to shop local businesses, small businesses, and this just makes it really easy.

Holly Watson: 00:28:36

Well, this is the thing. It's a bit like, you know, lots of people. Shop on Etsy. I mean, I, I do like when I think about buying small in a present, I'll go on Etsy because I know at least it's benefiting a kind of a small actual person, you know, who's designing someone or making something. And I think the thing with Etsy though, is you don't always know how local they are and you ended up buying something from Scotland or whatever, which is great.

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Cause you're supporting your seller in Scotland. But I think the feeling of being able to actually support. Actual local businesses who can also come in and do meet the makers. And that's another thing we offer, you know, they can come in at any time. They can be there. They can run workshops from the cafe in the evenings. There's, we've kind of built it to be a real collaboration so that everybody wins, you know, for us, we want more people coming into the Emporium we want to see. We want the sellers to succeed. So, you know, we have a member of staff in there that talks about them and kind of is. Really kind of clue up on all the sellers and what they do in their USPS. And you know, whether they're a mom of two or you know, why they created their business. So we, we have all of that information so that when customers come in, we can. Shout about all the brands. And I love the fact that there are so many quirky things that we've never been able to have before, but that they all still tick the sustainable model. You know, like every brand that we have, they don't use plastic. Most of them have some kind of either recycled packaging or they've considered, you know, that it's an organic cotton cause we sell clothing and there's just so many different things. There's beautiful candles. And. Products that you really just kind of know, like you can feel really good about buying. And that for me is like, that's a real win and it's, it's really showing because people are coming in and they are buying. So it's, it's really nice to, to sort of have the support of our community, but also be supporting other brands. Yeah, I think that's all, I think it's all really nice as you say, it's a business model that works for everyone.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:41

Yeah. And I know at the moment you are looking for local sellers, but do you have any plans to do something similar anywhere else?

Holly Watson: 00:30:47

Yeah, I think one of the things we kind of realized is that. The whole zero waste ethos that is so ingrained in myself and Lottie, it's not going anywhere. And so we kind of thought, well, okay, just because the actual, the traditional zero waste model, refill side of things hasn't worked for us doesn't mean that we can't still do something within that space.

undefined: 00:31:08

And I feel like the ethical Emporium is that I feel like it's a really good alternative to essentially what we were trying to do before. So me and Lottie at the moment, Kind of exploring the idea of creating ethical emporiums elsewhere in Kent and finding other locations and continuing this kind of popup model, um, in other spaces, because there are a lot of empty units in so many towns now and on high streets and things that could potentially be utilized. So our next step is to contact, you know, local agents in sort of various different towns and see whether. This is viable, you know, to even work on a pop-up basis for maybe only, you know, a couple of months or three months, um, to just create a platform for sellers in that space, in that area, in that region to, I guess, not launch their brands, but give them an opportunity that doesn't require them to be setting up at market on a weekly basis, cuz that, you know, a lot of smaller brands, that's what they do. They're they're slogging it out all the time. Creating setting up a store being there for eight hours and then leaving. And, and that's kind of their only way of, I guess, having a physical space to sell. So if we were to, to be able to kind of enable that for brands, even for a kind of three month period, it would hopefully be really beneficial because, you know, we are essentially filling an empty unit potentially, and landlords are desperate to have anything right now, you know, until they can get a.

Holly Watson: 00:32:40

Sort of permanent, you know, next sort of person in. Um, but it would also mean that, you know, you're taking away the stress of having to man a stall or, you know, give your time the whole time, because obviously it would be something we would hopefully be able to cover with staffing and things, our end. And so to, I guess it's like creating a mobile ethical Emporium, um, But on a pop-up basis in, in other local towns and just seeing whether that is something that's viable and whether that's something people support.

undefined: 00:33:08

So it's still very early stages, but it's definitely something we wanna look into.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:13

I think that's a really great idea. And especially as when you talk about doing markets, I think a lot of products do sell really well when people can see them touch them. Um, it can be personally, I have back when I was said in my products that I sold really well when people could actually pick them up and touch them and yeah. Um, but it's really hard to have that opportunity. Cause as you say, you have to go to a market, you have to pay for that pitch. And I know. Your model involves people paying for a space, but actually there's a lot more involved in paying for a pitch and decorating a space and filling it up

Holly Watson: 00:33:46

and set up on the same day as well that the kind of getting there early, getting it all set up and then getting it all down again and you know, all weathers and that kind of thing.

undefined: 00:33:54

There's a lot of other factors and also a lot of brands, you know, people work alongside. Yeah. You know, these are still kind of, you know, smaller brands where it's, it's kind of from the kitchen table essentially. And. It just offers a bit of a, I guess it's a more convenient way for sellers to try and get their brands out there. And, you know, for us, again, just that the minimum sign up only being two weeks is it's, it's pretty much just, it gives them an opportunity to see whether it's even worth their time. And most people will take that small risk to see whether something could really benefit them. And, you know, for us, just in our Emporium, it's. I'd say at the moment we've got a 70% retention rate, which I think is pretty good. We know that not every product is going to sell. Sometimes it just is about the demographic. Sometimes it's about the, the product itself or how, you know, it, some, some things do sell better online, funnily enough. But I think you're right. I think someone can actually physically see something. And also, I think. Being able to go back to something is quite interesting. So if you see something in market and you go home, you go, oh, I should. I bought that now. Like it gives consumers the opportunity to come back and go, I really like that actually, do you know what I'm gonna go back and get that candle, or I'm gonna go back and get that scarf or whatever. Um, knowing that it's gonna be there, you know? And that's, that's the thing about having a physical bricks and mortar is that essentially you are tying yourself to a premises for a certain amount of time and, and. Gives customers a window as well to kind of have a think and return, rather than that impulsive, I've gotta get it because I'm not gonna see it again, type thing. So it's got, yeah, it's kind of, I guess there's two modes. Like sometimes that's a good thing for markets because if they think they're not gonna be able to get it again, they'll get it right there. But from a kind of normal consumer sort of buying habits, people like to sort of look at things seven times asked across their mind before they really consider it. So it's. Allowing for that? I think so. Yeah. I'd really like to think it, it it's got legs. We'll see.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:59

I think so. Cause love advantage I can see for sellers is it gives you a chance to sell, uh, to check, to test as well to test okay. If I put these two products on a table, which one sells the most or especially for some, and I know this isn't. The the aim, but if there were sellers who were thinking one day, I'd like to be stocked in, I dunno, Oliver Bonas or wherever, it gives them an opportunity to say, okay, when people see my products on a shelf with other products, Do they pick them up? Do they buy them? What do they think about them? Um, I just think that's really good opportunity as well, to see how will your product sales in retail get some data without spending a load of money or taking a really big risk?

Holly Watson: 00:36:39

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a lot of, it requires a lot of effort as well to, to get into any big round, you know, like to be stocked in somewhere.

undefined: 00:36:50

Everyone's dreams like be stock in Harvey Nicholls or Harrods or whatever, but to actually get to that point is incredibly difficult. Um, yeah, you often end up getting into the slightly longer, um, invoice terms and things as well, because that's what the, those brands can do because they they've got that power. And so it kind of removes some of that and it actually keeps it on that local level and that community level that I think. People after COVID are wanting more of, you know, they are wanting to, they, they are sort of realizing what's important and, you know, spending time with people and, and having access to things like, you know, being able to go to the shops with your family or whatever. It's it's almost like that's kind of a positive from COVID, but I think, you know, the supporting local thing does seem to have helped. So obviously for us, it wasn't necessarily, I think it was just too much to support local and change your shopping habits. So it's like on either or. So this is a good compromise and it allows people to feel good about their shopping choices, which, you know, it's, it's funny, but it it's a very psychological thing shopping and. I think women more than men consider it more in terms of what they're buying and, and how it affects anything other than just, I like that I'm buying it. Um, so I've definitely noticed, you know, we we've got repeat customers now who say they don't go anywhere else. Now that they know that we've got the Emporium, they just come to us whenever they want a gift. And that's, that's really nice because it's only been a couple of months and we've started to get that now, then I'm looking at how that could possibly grow. It's, you know, I'm, I'm hoping it is as positive as I think it's

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:29

I think it's, like I said, I, I don't see nobody loses in this situation. I just think there's just positives for everyone, which is really good because there aren't many things in life actually, where it's all positive for everyone.

Holly Watson: 00:38:40

So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Especially at the moment. It's yeah. It's I think people need something to kind of make them feel good and, you know, It's hard to have a small business at the moment. It's hard to get your product out there. It's hard to get people to, you know, consider spending on luxuries now with everything that's going on. Um, you know, with all the cost of living crisis and everything, I think people are tightening their belts. And so they're, they're taking longer to make a bigger purchase or, you know, or they're, they're really thinking more about, do I really want, this? Is this the right thing for me before they buy it? So it gives an opportunity, I guess, to put that forward and, and know that you're doing the right thing, because you know, it's so much nicer to be able to give someone a gift that you you've bought from somebody local. And you can tell a little story about cuz for us, the brand stories are really important. Um, rather than just grabbing something from, I don't know, John Lewis, so and given them that, you know, I think the personal side of things is much more important to people now. So, and it's what brands, you know, really, I guess, from, I come from a marketing and social media background. So I'm quite lucky in the sense of my experience is understanding what makes people stop and, and stop scrolling or engage in a post for example. And it's the same thing with products. It's. Knowing that your personal story and, and something is an identifier. If someone can identify with you, they're more likely buy into you. So it's that, but on a biggest.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:40:13

That makes sense. Thank you. And let's, um, keep an eye on the of time for your, for you Holly. But before we finish, I would love to talk about your own products as well. And I know you mentioned this again, this is fair, something fairly new, but, um, yes, I know you've been elling your own brand of candles. So do you want to talk a bit about how this came about how you've created them and, and how that fits in? Because let's face it, you've got a lot going on.

Holly Watson: 00:40:36

I have got a lot going on. Yeah. Um, The thing before we kind of really decided to change the model to the ethical Emporium, we'd already decided that the retail model wasn't working for us because it's that middleman thing of, you know, buying from this person, they have to make a profit margin and then totally you, and, you know, so I looked at initially just looking at. The kind of products that we knew sold well. So for us, the homeware stuff was actually selling really well in the shop. So I wanted to look into making my own candles, which I used to do years ago and just hadn't ever considered selling. I just did it kind of as a nice hobby. Um, so I started looking into potentially what I would buy if I was going to buy a candle for somebody or for myself, um, And did quite a lot of research just based on, you know, the most ethical sourced, you know, wax and fragrances and Ws and everything. It's like, it is a minefield, you know? Um, but I'm very creative and I do like to have a creative outlets. So for me, I was I'll come out actually, what I'll just, I'll just trial some I'll just trial some and I'll see how it goes. Um, so initially it was just a case of, I started trying to essential oil. Which is actually really hard to do. So hat off to anyone who sells essential candles because to get the right scent through. But also there's a lot of there there's like labeling and legal requirements that you have to have with like all of the different, you know, sort of everything, warning labels, all of it. And I was a bit like, do you know what I. I don't wanna go down that route. So instead I tried to find the most ethical non-toxic, um, fragrance oil suppliers, which I did find, um, and then created some candles just off fragrances of that. I loved, um, I created a brand that is separate to zero because essentially it's, it was like a separate entity.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:42:32

Um, But also because I mean, I come from like a branding background, so I sort of understand the importance of having the brand story and it being different to, you know, people think of zero. They think of the cafe and the pan towels. And obviously that's not what I wanted for something I was making. So, um, the brand is called Wander and Wild and the way that the sense I've created work are there are Wander sense. And they're a wild sense. So the wonder sense are the ones that evoke, um, Memories of places that you've been or traveled or want to go to. So, um, this one called which is, you know, like coconuts and it's not, it's not too tropical. There's, there's kind of hints of bergamot on things in there as well, give a bit of a depth. But the idea is that you've got kind of places and then you've got the world, which is more the botanical scents. So I've got one called Wonderland, which is like Soka, Turkish, rose, and geranium scent. So. Essentially the branding for me was having two things, which are really important to me, which is kind of traveling and having experiences. I don't, I tend not to buy material things. I spend time in places and if I'm gonna spend on anything, it'll be a holiday or a trip somewhere. Um, so I suppose like that for me was really important that I actually could evoke. Cause I think scent is really important. Can it's a bit like music. It. Take you somewhere immediately, like, you know, a sense of like fresh bread and it reminds you of walking past the cafe when you were in France four years ago. You know, that kind of thing was what I wanted to try and evoke. So, um, so I created, I think we've got six scented candles now and they're all made with, um, organic, a hundred percent soy wax. Um, Um, organic cotton wicks as well. Um, and yeah, basically they are in the important at the moment. Um, although I say that I have definitely not made very many recently cause I've been really busy and I've been on holiday, so I need to make some more. But, um, yeah, so I have, I have, I think six fragrances at the moment and, um, it's just given me like a bit of artistic free reign that I. Get so much anymore. Cuz I like being creative and I like, you know, I, I love doing branding and creating that side of things. So like design, even designing the labels and things. I really found joy in. Um, but they've uh, yeah, they've been. Selling quite well. I find it really hard to talk about my own photos. I'm like, yeah, they're really good. that's really good. It's really good. They've been selling well as well. Um, cause it sounds like, you know, it's something you did almost not. I know you, I know it's a business, but it also sounds like something you're getting a lot of joy from as well.

Holly Watson: 00:45:07

Yeah. I just really loved, I like experimenting and I liked finding, you know, God, I went through so many fragrances before I decided on the ones that I really liked and was testing them and getting the girls at work to kind. Tell me which ones were their favorites and, you know, it's, it's just nice because it's something different. And, and I don't really see it as like a money maker at the moment. It is, it was more just a kind of. Can I do this, can it compete with other people's brands? And so far it can, which is great. Um, but it's something it does require time. And I don't have a lot of that at the moment. So it's not, I'm not necessarily kind of gunning for this to be the new big brand of, of zero, whatever, but it is nice to know that it's something I can do when I've got some time. I'll make more and make sure that I can get this on the.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:52

Yeah. And I think that is, like you said, that's a really nice way of looking at it that if you've got time and you can make some, and you can get them up in, in the shop then. Great. But it's not like your business is not like your key focus and no, exactly. It doesn't have to be making you money.

Holly Watson: 00:46:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's just a nice to have at the moment. And you know, if it. Became more popular or more in demand than I'd give it more time. But at the moment, I just, just think it's one of those things. I just wanted to see if I could do it. And now I've, you know, essentially got everything. So when I do have time, I now can just spend it up of time creating some candles and, and it is, it's a very, I find it really therapeutic. Lottie finds it really boring. It's quite funny. She's like wanna make candles, I wanna make candles. And then she was like, oh yeah, no, I don't really wanna make candles. some candles. And then she was like, oh, I didn't it like this that's we differ. Yeah. I really enjoy like making something, you know, the whole process. I, I like. That's brilliant.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:46:54

And I've got, well, I've actually got two more questions. So I've just thought of another one as you reference Lottie then, which I hope you don't mind me asking. Um, but what I'm just really curious actually is to how you find running a business, you know, as a pair. So, you know, your business partners, um, because lots of my guests have been solos and running their businesses by themselves and making order decisions. Do you have any thoughts or advice for, you know, how to run a business with a friend and yeah, stay friends.

Holly Watson: 00:47:22

Yeah to, to know the funny thing is I think everybody who meets us just has this assumption that me and Lottie are like lifelong friends that we've known each other for years. And then we decided to come up with this. But actually we met in, uh, like January, 2019, and we opened zero in November, 2019. So we became business partners like what we became friends, but it, we weren't people who'd known each other for years. And I think actually that's been really helpful. Um, I don't know if I could do this with a best friend, you know, somebody who knows me inside out back to front, all my flaws, all of that, you know, it's actually really nice to. I think I'm very lucky, me and lucky me and Lottie met and immediately connected. Um, neither of us can really understand why. And, you know, there are those things where people say it's like, it was meant to be, it does feel like it was meant to be because. We just got each other within like a day. And we met because we both had babies the same age and we're trying to find childcare options because we were freelancers. And we were like, we could maybe look after each other's kids while we're trying to work. And that's kind of how we started. Um, and then we found out that our boys were born a day apart and I had a scheduled C-section and then I was bumped because of an emergency to the next day. And Lottie was the emergency. So we didn't even know each other then. Um, and then met eight months later and then found out that we had kind of had this crazy story where actually, you know, she essentially took my C-sections slot, which is fine but that's kind of, it is a funny thing to kind of realize. And then off the back of that, we just, I don't know, we both just were like, we just wanna do something together. And we were, we were writing business plans within three weeks of being kind of having met essentially. But I think for. Our biggest pro is that we have very different skill sets. Um, and we are very lucky because somehow we've managed to find polar opposites. So Lotti does all of our finances, VA returns, tax stuff, HR contracts, like she's all over legal staff. She. Everything about EHO like regulations, all of that, like food hygiene. She does all of that. She literally keeps a handle on how, like making sure that we are functioning legally and properly, um, And she's just incredible, like with a spreadsheet, she can knock a spreadsheet up and smash it out in like 30 minutes. And I, I could do the same, but it would take me a whole day, you know, like I just don't have that. She's, it's almost like she's got a numbers, brain and everything. She's just like right. Done. And I'm like, uh, okay. Whereas I'm. Very creative. I come from marketing, social media, branding backgrounds. So the aesthetics and the kind of brand and what zero looks like is more me. Um, and I do all of our social media and our website. And I'm also more operational, although that's slightly by accent. Cause Lottie decided to have another baby. I was like, don't have a baby in the first year then she did, but but so she was kind of a little bit out, like during that whole kind of COVID era, um, You know, she had a little baby, so I, I tended to be more operational in the shop and then she was more behind the scenes. So it worked really well. And the thing is obviously, like, I don't think we've ever argued. We would disagree on things. And you know, I'll tell her that she's nuts about various things. Cuz she does come up with some crazy ass ideas that I'm like, what are you doing? But I'm like a bit of a voice of reason. And then somehow we managed to find middle ground that works. So. But we are very similar. We're both quite impulsive. And I say we're both quite adaptable. So that's been a real pro for us. Um, but I think communication, that's probably our biggest thing. We talk all the time. And so our husband's annoyance, you know, I'm constantly on my phone and I think anyone who runs a business knows, even if you run it on your own, you're constantly working. It's very hard to switch off and be very disciplined about doing so. And I'm not disciplined and nor she So we're a nightmare. It'll be like 10 o'clock at night. I've just had a thought. And like, you know, my husband's just like, why are you still on your phone? Are you working? And I'm like, no, no, I'm not. Um, but I guess the fact that we communicate all the time means we both always on the same page and, and that's really important. I think if you don't communicate, that's the like, or if you don't say if something is bothering you or if you're unhappy about something that's like beginning of the end, it. For us. We've always said that if we're unhappy about something or we think something is changing, we, we talk about it immediately and it's been a massive difference for how we work.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:52:16

That's really useful. And I think as well, something else I tick from what you've just been saying is that I also think it's probably a bonus that you both have really clearly defined roles. Yeah. Because I can imagine it would be hard if you were both trying to manage your Instagram account or you both wanted to, you know, do or had, or strong views. Something, um, it must make things a lot easier when you sort of know, okay, you do this and I do that. And of course we talk and discuss, but, um, that must really help as well.

Holly Watson: 00:52:47

Yeah. It's funny. I, we kind of never initially set out our job roles, but it just was so clear from the beginning, you know, I designed stuff. So anything design based, whether it's menus, website, Instagram, anything. Even like coming down to like how we decorate the shop. That's very much me and Lottie's really happy to be led on that, which is great because I have such strong ideas. So I find it really difficult if, if somebody else was like, I wanna do this, I'd be like, no, no, we're not doing it like that, but she's so kind of chill. She's like, yeah, fine. Do whatever I trust you. And I think I trust her to do, like, I never ask about finances, really. I hate finding out about the finances side of things. I'm like, oh, it's really stressful. Um, so we've sort of naturally just got our strengths and it works really well, but I, yeah, I, I think you're right. I think if we ever were to sort of cross over which, you know, there's been a couple of things, one we've both sort of almost accidentally started doing the same thing, but it becomes clear quite quickly, who is probably best suited to that task. And then. Either. So, yeah, I think that, and communicating is probably the biggest thing for us.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:53:54

Definitely. Thank you. And I know I did throw that question at you, but as we were talking, obviously Lottie came up so much. I thought actually that would be good to talk about. So I only have one more question now you'll be pleased to know probably which is what is your number one tip for small product businesses. What's one thing you'd like people to take.

Holly Watson: 00:54:14

I think so because I come from marketing and social media, it it's kind of ingrained into me that that is one of your biggest platforms of promotion. So obviously it's not the only one, but we do live in a very online world now. So having your brand on social media platforms and having a website are kind of, I think your two most important factors of running a business, if you like, but from a kind of personal level. If you're trying to sell a product, um, the very best way you can do that is to actually not actively sell it, but talk about anything that would, I guess, be relatable to a consumer. So if you, if you're selling a candle and you put a picture of a candle on your Instagram, even if it's the most beautiful candle and picture you've ever seen. It's probably gonna get a bit of a kind of a token, like, you know, rarely is someone going to comment or engage in a post like that. If you put a picture of your child holding that candle, your engagement will double. If you put a picture of a dog with your candle, it'll triple, there is something about people, pets, babies. It's an immediate relatable factor for people and it makes them stop. So I always say to people when I'm like, when I used to do their social media for them, I was like, I need photos of you. And they're like, what? No, I don't wanna be in pictures. And I was like, you need to be in pictures. Your notice is a small business every post that has an about you, a kind of. Even a look, what I've been doing today, and that you're sitting in the, in the sunshine drinking a smoothie that has nothing to do with selling candles that will guarantee get more engagement and more people wanting to find out about you and what you do than a picture of your candle. So if anything it's that people sell, not products. People will always. Be the one defining factor that make you either choose to buy or not buy. So if you can relate to somebody and even if it's a picture of them with their three children on the sofa, and you are calling it a duo day or whatever, those kind of honest posts on a business page. People are always really frightened to do. Cause they're like, it's, it's not the brand, it's not the brand, but actually it is the brand because everything that you are is your brand, especially if you are a single kind of, you know, designer maker of some sort. So that's my kind of biggest tip is that actually never underestimate the power of yourself and, and what you give to it because people wanna find out about you. They don't really care either way what's sent your candle is sometimes it's more about if they can see that. Have some, a similarity to them and they can relate to you. They're more likely to buy from you. So that's, I guess it's more of a marketing tip, but it really works. And I would say to everyone, just do it, just do a, just do a photo you and tell me if you get more engagement and they always come back and they're like, yeah, I got more engagement. And that's what you need. You need more engagement from followers on social media because they will eventually convert into sales. So it is a long game with marketing, but that that's my biggest thing is that people fell so put a baby in there. You'll be, you'll be fine.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:57:40

that's really good advice. Thank you I do really like that. And I can see, I can see what you mean because yeah, I definitely personally S scroll past pictures. Products. Yeah, because I mean, you might think you, like you say, you might give them a, like, if you think they look nice, but yeah, generally you want to, I don't know. You, you wanna find out something new.

Holly Watson: 00:58:00

That's been interesting and yeah. Well, the other thing is videos. A lot of people now have gotten down to the fact that videos are a key point and. The only way that a video that would get more engagement than a person in it is if you've got a product, like a skincare product or a scrub or something, and you take like a slow mode of like it's S switching out onto a hand or something, that's when you'll get someone and go, oh yeah, I wanna see that. Because again, it's, it's, it's like a tactile thing. It's something that they wanna touch or look at or smell. Um, so if you can get that across in the video, that's B. But yeah, even then you probably need a human hand in there. Just just to identify with

Vicki Weinberg: 00:58:40

This is all great. Holy, thank you. thank you so much for everything you shared. You've told us so much about your business. I think it's really, yeah, it's just been really fascinating. I'm so pleased I could get you on because I was really keen to talk to you because as you say, you run. Kind of free business as well. At least two businesses. Let's say

Holly Watson: 00:58:56

they freak me out. If I think about it too much.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:58:59

I gotta leave it there then. Thank you so much for everything you share.

Holly Watson: 00:59:02

It's a pleasure. Thank you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:59:06

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the full back catalog and lots of free resources on my website, Vicky weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode, if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful.

Holly Watson: 00:59:23

Thank you again and see you next week.