What Running a Physical Shop is Really Like – with Sarah Birchall, Cub & Pudding

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea To Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hello.

So today on the podcast, I'm speaking again to Sa Birchall from Cub and Pudding. So Sare designs colourful clothing to help bring a dose of cheer into everyday dressing.

Cub and Pudding is a one woman brand built on passion, not formal training that believes in the power of colour to lift moods and boost confidence. So I first spoke with Sarah, I want to say it was last year and you can go back and listen to that episode.

It'll be linked in the show notes where she talks more about the brand, how it used to be a children's brand, now it's a women's clothing brand, how she designs and makes her clothes. It was a great conversation.

So she was going to keep the online business but also have a physical premises. We're now speak now as we speak now. So maybe not when this episode is out, but the time of speaking. She was seven months into that journey.

So the shop had been open for seven months, it'd been open through the winter, we were now coming into the spring. And it's really fascinating conversation.

I knew nothing about running a shop, how to find a shop, how to fit out a shop, what fitting out a sh even meant. We speak in a lot of detail. You can probably see this fairly long episode about everything involved in having a shop.

So if this is something you've ever considered, definitely worth a listen. Even if you've never considered opening a shop. And if you think you never want to open a shop, this is always also a really good listen.

If you just want to hear more about what's involved in running a shop. I found it truly, truly fascinating and I really hope you do too. So I would love now to reintroduce you to Sephora.

So, hi, thank you so much for being here again.

Thanks for having me back. Exciting.

Oh, you're so welcome. We've got some really exciting things to talk about. So thank you so much for giving me your time again. Can we start with you, please?

Giving a reintroduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Yeah, sure. I am Sarah and I am founder of Cub and Pudding and it's a clothing brand which I design for myself.

And the kind of USP is just bringing a kind of dash of color and confidence to people's wardrobe with paper prints and fun, bold colorways, basically.

Well, thank you.

And so for anyone who hasn't listened to your previous episode, that would be a really good one to start with because you talk a lot more about your business and why you started.

And we go into that in a lot more detail because what I've invited you here to talk about today is something we touched on really briefly in our last interview, which was you opened a physical shop and you mentioned it when we spoke before. I think you were in the fitting out stage at that time. No, I don't think so.

So for anyone who hasn't gone back and listened to a previous episode, start by telling us what made you decide to open a shop as opposed to continuing online.

Yeah, I mean, it's a bit of a bonkers thing and I think a lot of people, especially people are friends that had shops already and that have shut their shops, thought I was insane. But I did my. I did a pop up shop a couple of years ago actually, funnily enough, being on exactly the same road that I now have my shop on.

And it kind of just gave me the bug. It was really nice, I think, because I've done markets on and off over the years when I started just the kids wear business.

So I did a few markets especially around Christmas. But I always personally found markets quite tough. I think as a clothing brand and with a market audience, they're not really an impulsive buy.

People don't tend to impulsively buy a dress for £118 or buy them as a gift.

You know, if you're next to someone, which I have been lots of times, who's selling candles or jams at a market, you're much more likely to get people obviously saying, I'll buy a couple of those. Great. So I found them quite a hard slog. And I think because obviously you can't dictate your surroundings or where you are.

And I kind of always wanted to present the brand in the best possible light and that's not necessarily possible. So when I got the chance to be in a shop space, which was a really lovely space, it wasn't too Big. And it was fitted out really, really gorgeously.

I didn't have to go in there and think, oh, what am I gonna do to this space? To make it look lovely, really light and airy. It just, it was a really nice moment to have all of my things out on display exactly how I wanted them.

People being able to come in and see my products that close, try them on, look at the fabrics and the colour in your life is really, really important. Because I know how hard it is to buy clothes online for so many reasons. Fit. You don't know, you know how, how it's going to be.

And people don't like the return process. So it started sowing that seed. But obviously I knew it would be a huge leap on doing a pop up to can I open my own space?

And then what I kind of learned quite quickly is I got myself on the radar of a lot of the local businesses by kind of letting them know if you hear about any spaces. Because I think unlike if you're buying a house, for example, they tend to go on the market, people know about it.

But I think with business spaces, often people will get whispers that so and so is leaving that space. And that's kind of how someone tends to kind of come along and say, I heard you're leaving, can I have a look?

So by kind of introducing myself to some of the local businesses and saying, I'm interested in opening a space, but it has to be the right one. It kind of got me in their thoughts.

And then fast forward two years later, I had done a couple of other pop ups again on the same stretch and then I just, yeah, I got a message, an Instagram message from my now predecessor of my shop space, saying that she was leaving after six years and did I want to go and have a look around.

Amazing, thank you. And I was going to ask that about how you found the space. So thank you so much for covering that too.

Actually, before we move on, tell everyone where you are.

Ah, yeah, I'm in Forest Hill in southeast London, so I'm on a lovely stretch for Dartmouth Road and it's all Independence down there, which is what's really, really lovely. Every shop down there is independent. There's an amazing vintage shop, Zero Waste, you know, greengrocers, deli, craft workshop that's just open.

It's a really lovely stretch. A really nice small community. Right by the train station. Yeah. Enclosed hill.

Thank you. That's quite rare, isn't it, to have those little areas of just independent shops? I mean, where I live, I live in Tunbridge in Kent.

I don't think we definitely don't have that here and I struggle to think of many places that have that. So I guess London's quite unique in that there are still areas that are very independent and that's really lovely.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And we all, a lot of us share the same landlord, which is. That's another part of my kind of.

When I found out about the shop, was kind of worrying about that. So that's helped as well, that. Yeah, we share several of us the same landlord, so I was obviously nervous about that. But yeah, it's really.

I think all the locals are quite aware of the fact that every business down there is independent. And when I was opening, people were very interested in what is this space going to be?

We don't want it to be another Costa or we don't want it to be a betting shop. So that we helped. I think when working brand new, people have already come across quite supportive of me.

Oh, that's brilliant. That's so nice to hear. And what is the process? So from finding out there was a space available and having a look round, what happens?

What happens then? So I assume you're signing a lease and is that negotiable? How long you do that for? How does that work?

Yeah, I mean, it's a whole new world to me.

So what's been really great is I live in Crystal palace, actually, and I happen to know a couple of business owners here in Crystal palace, so I was very much tapping into their knowledge and getting advice from them on what should I ask the landlord and what is kind of tend to be negotiable. I had looked at one other site prior to my chicken, Forest Hill, so I sort of started talking to a landlord, but that was actually through an agency.

But I got a gist of helped that it's a landlord, a personal landlord, so it's not through a tenant's agency, so it's kind of. I'm dealing directly with him. And my predecessor Yoli had the space as a florist. She was really.

I was lucky she was really, really lovely, really helpful. Gave me an insight into all the kind of typical bills she was paying.

Things like business rates you have to take into account depending on the size of the space and then, yeah, things like the lease. So I was lucky enough that I met my landlords. I didn't know he would then end up being my landlord in person for a coffee in Palace.

And he's very, he's lovely, he's very kind of transparent, very kind of gregarious, has lots of businesses, very open and he was quite flexible. And I, I kind of got a good vibe from him after another landlord I dealt with who was very, you know, a bit tricky.

And what I like about my landlord Touchwood is he's just not interested in what I do with the space. And that's the impression I got with Yoli. And I'm.

He, he asked me, you know, he said, go talk to my other tenants first, don't commit to anything and see what you, you know, what, what vibe you get and no pressure or anything. So I got a good feel from him and I was able to kind of sign a lease which wasn't stupidly long in the world of leases.

So, you know, I signed a three year lease, but often it's five years or longer. So already scary. I'm already seven months into it, so. And I feel like I have to give myself a good year to see how it goes.

But we kind of, you know, I, we negotiated that if things worse, things worse don't work out within that three years, I would be able to leave earlier. And I got a really good rate as well.

It's a really great space because I actually compared to other spaces I looked at, not only is it much more reasonable, but I have a whole downstairs area where I have all my stock and the other space I didn't have, I was just, you know, shop fronts, little toilet if I was lucky. But I've got a kitchen, I've got a back area packing area and a whole downstairs section.

So that was a big, huge thing for me because clothes take up a lot of room when you've had a delivery of clothes. They're, you know, big heavy boxes and having somewhere to store them.

And really crucially for me, I pack all my online orders there in the shop while the shop's open and I'm able to greet people in the shop while in my kind of back area.

Packing has been really a bit of a huge turnaround for me because previously I had stock in all different places all over the place in my building and I'd be trying to, you know, go up to one floor and get a bit of stock and then go somewhere else. And it was always a bit of a nightmare.

So in a way that's been one of the biggest kind of like, you know, benefits for me of opening the shop is that I have everything in one place, a dedicated packing area. And that's been really nice that I can kind of juggle two things, my online business and the shop at the same time.

That is really nice.

And I guess it takes out of your home as well so that you have a place of work to go to and that's where the stock is and that's where your business is.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Having my own pudding home is really lovely and being able to make it exactly how I want it.

And I knew when I first moved in that I would not to be kind of too tied to how I'd set everything out. So last weekend we went back in, my husband and I, and had a kind of let's refresh how we lay things out and move things around.

And that's what's really nice, that you don't get the opportunity if you're just at a market or even a pop up. Great. But you know, you've got a week, if you're lucky or two.

And then, you know, it's nice to sort of see the flow, natural flow, people coming in, where they gravitate towards and how I can kind of change things up in the shop as I'm there on a kind of regular basis.

That makes sense because as you say, when you're first setting up or fitting out or however you not sure what the correct terminology is. I guess it's not guesswork, but you don't really know how the space will work and how people will move around it.

I'd like to talk a little bit more about that. That's okay. So when you talk. When we spoke last time, when I last interviewed you, you were fitting out the shop.

And we didn't go into it in great detail then because it was very new and you were right in the middle of it. But what does fitting out mean?

And what kind of things do you have to think about when you, you know, you've obviously given this, I guess, an empty space. So what kind of things are you responsible for getting in there? And what can you and can't you do?

I mean, I guess maybe that's dependent on as well, but talk us through that a little bit if that's okay, yeah, sure.

So like I mentioned my landlord, I'm very lucky and he's very hands off. And he, there is no, we didn't sign any kind of.

I forget what the official term is when you do it, you move in somewhere and they do a check first when you're renting it. None of that. He just, he, you know, he's not interested, which is a good thing.

So I didn't have to be mindful of what am I, I'm going to drill into this wall. I'm going to have to, you know, fill that hole in when I leave.

A big thing to think about when you are moving, taking a lease is, and this helped by talking to my friends who already have businesses is you can negotiate a rent free period when you sign lease before your actual rent kicks in. So to give you time to fit out a shop, I managed to negotiate two weeks. So that gave me two weeks to completely transform the shop.

And I didn't have the pressure of paying rent during that time thinking, oh my gosh, I need to get the shop open and earn some money because I wasn't paying rent during those two weeks. So I had the keys to the property and then had two weeks to kind of get everything done. And that's also quite good I think, to keep that focus of.

Right, this is what I need to do. I think the previous tenant, Yoline, she was a florist. So it was a very, very, very different aesthetic in there. Very dark and broody.

She had bespoke custom floor to ceiling units built in and a sink. All these things that I wasn't going to need.

So again, I think it's helpful knowing fellow small businesses because I managed to get in touch with them and say, you know, do you have any good contacts for carpenters? And my friend who's got various cafes in the area, she has an amazing handyman who's just brilliant with everything.

So I started getting a few quotes when I thought I might be getting the shot because I think it's important to kind of make sure you're, you've got a budget and you're trying to stick to it.

So it really was a case of first going in and ripping everything out that I didn't need, which was quite a lot, and then stripping the space right back down and then repainting it, bringing it right back up and just roughly. My husband's a graphic designer so we, he kind of, we had like a layout of the space on paper that we were kind of roughly drawing.

Okay, this is where a rail will be. This is where we can put tables and a counter.

But trying to not be too rigid with it because often when you go in you're actually thinking actually the light might be better on that side. So you know, let's put the mirror there. But yeah, I mean the fit out can really vary on what the state of the space is in when you get it.

Whereas mine was very much replicating out, repaint, get plugs and sockets changed and things. And the downstairs area was painted a really, really lurid yellow.

And while I knew it was only going to be my area at the pack and my husband was kind of quite keen to say, you know, don't overstretch yourself. I really wanted to try and do all of that as well.

Because I knew and I was right, if I didn't do it in those two weeks, the fit out, I would never get around to doing it in my own time when the shop was open and I knew I'd be the one spending time there at the back of area. And if I was trying to deal with this really painfully horrible yellow. I like yellow.

But it was actually this industrial paint that had been used to cover up really bad walls and it was kind of a sickly mustard and it was in absolutely every crevice you could possibly imagine that it took. I'd never want to paint again. It took many, many coats. But I got my kids involved. We were there evenings, weekends it was full on.

And the day we opened I, you know, there's a picture of me on the doorstep and I'm just completely worn out, bedraggled. I only put things in the space the morning of opening.

That was kind of like the very last thing I did actually get everything out and put it on display. Because the whole two weeks had been spent sanding, repainting, just, you know, drilling holes, putting things up on walls.

But I think like I said, just try not to be too formulaic about what you're doing and how you plan it. But yeah, the fit out can really vary.

But getting some good local tradespeople behind you I think is really integral because I could never have done it all by myself. No way.

That's really useful.

Thank you And I really like your tip about getting the two weeks of grace period, like the rent free period as well, because I never would have thought of that. But you're right, that must take a little bit of pressure off if, you know, and also, as you said, also give you a deadline as well.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Otherwise it would have, you know, I think you could probably go, oh, I'll just spend another week painting and I just tweak this.

But you know, at the back of your mind, I'm constantly thinking I need to open those doors and get some customers in hopefully and to make some purchases and bring some money in.

So you've been open for seven months now, is that right?

Yes, seven months, yeah.

And how are you finding balancing having a physical store and an online store? Because Obviously you were 100 online before and now you have to split. How's that going?

It has been harder than I probably imagined, I think because of when I opens, opens middle late October, so obviously leading up to the Christmas period. So I was very, I really wanted to be open as much as possible to really like, hopefully monopolize as much of those Christmas customers.

So I was open four to five, five days a week. And then in the last few weeks of December I basically opened every single day. So that was a lot.

And I think it was just kind of, you know, adrenaline getting me through in that first Christmas period. And then basically it got to January and I realized that I was just, that wasn't going to work for me.

There would be days in the shop where it would just be really quiet, like on a Wednesday. It is a quite a residential area of London, so it's not naturally a very, very busy high street.

And you do really notice especially things like during school holidays where the football and the people just drops.

So I quickly kind of realized that I will just cut back the days of the shop and kind of call them seasonal hours and not be, not be too hard on myself about that. But so now I only open three days a week at the moment. I might change that in the summer and I think hopefully people learn to adjust with that.

But I have found working every Saturday quite tricky because naturally you're working Monday to Friday, technically on both the shop and online, and then you're working Saturday. So if you're not careful, it's a six day week every single week.

And while I try to kind of say, oh, I'll have Mondays off, I think we're so conditioned to a Monday to Friday working routine from years and years of working for Someone else that the guilt, which is ridiculous, of just thinking I can take Monday off, which is bonkers because every Saturday I'm working and I'm sacrificing time with my family, but it just doesn't, you know, it doesn't seem to work like that.

So, yeah, I would say that's the next big thing for me is I would love to get more regular help in the shop for Saturdays, but I just can't justify at the moment because I've had a kind of very slow start to the year just with the winter period and things. So I just haven't been able to justify paying someone else to be in the shop and possibly making a loss.

So I'm kind of just like, suck it up and be there at the moment. But I would love to change that in the future. So at least two Saturdays a month I'm not in there because I'm.

Yeah, my husband's doing everything every Saturday and he's very great, you know, But I'm missing out as well on things because I don't get home till 6 o' clock on Saturday now. So. Plus I'd love to like have the odd line on a Saturday. Sometimes I have a weekend where I don't have to be getting to the shop.

But yeah, so it's small, small things really, and hopefully I'll find a better way to do it.

Yeah, I guess some of these things will work themselves out, as you say, in time. So because you pack your orders there, does that mean that you're there six days a week at the moment, so you're physically there?

No, I'm really lucky. My customers are very good about the fact I only send out orders twice a week.

So from, from Saturday evening to the following Thursday, I don't go in unless obviously I know something's really important and anybody gets in contact and it's fast shipping. But no, I. I'm not in the shop. I do have to pop in sometimes. I'm going there in a minute, but I try not to do that because I.

It's not a big deal, but I live in Crystal palace, so I'm walking there at the moment and it's an hour there and. Which is lovely, but if I don't need to go there, then I won't. So, no, I'm not packing specifically.

I just try and be really organized and make sure I'm up to date as much on my last day on Saturday when next in.

That's really good. I think that's really, really smart.

So Having set shipping days, I think makes a lot of sense because I remember when I years ago, when I was having my business, I was.

I feel like I was going to the post office every day and it sounds so silly, but I never thought about the fact that I could say I'm going to post on Wednesday and Saturday, for example. Never even crossed my mind exactly the same.

But I think I, you know, I made it clear on the website that, you know, it takes, I think, three days processing and then obviously a couple of days. And it just tends to be, obviously, if someone orders, the window is quite small, which is lucky.

If someone orders on a Tuesday, I'm packing by Thursday and it's out. So no one's hopefully waiting too long for anything.

And we haven't had any feedback to the contrary that everybody's really annoyed that when we're not posting out regularly. So, yeah, I'm just reacting to customers as well. Nobody that hadn't had any.

And to be honest, I started doing that before I had the shop because it just, like you said, it just wasn't realistic that I have to get to a sorting office that's only open till 10 and trying to get there every morning and things, it just wasn't working for me with school runs and things.

So having more dedicated days to get to that sorting office, it just makes it a lot easier for me to plan my week and plan my packing and not beat myself up that I'm not getting anything out immediately. And I also think, and I probably shouldn't say this, but, you know, most people don't desperately need a T shirt.

Tomorrow, people are going on holiday and they'll contact me and say I need it. Obviously we'll always rush that through, but I feel like, you know, most people who wait a few days for a dress unless.

And there's a certain speed of shipping and everyone, 95% of people pick the slugger option, so I'll know that they're not in as rush, then the faster option as well.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I think, especially when you shop from small businesses. I bought something from a small business over the weekend and it was very clear on the page.

I think it was at the checkout it said, we're a small team and it might take us a couple of days to ship your order. And I just went, oh, okay, fine. Because if, you know, I think there's absolutely no.

But as long as that sort of thing's clear up front, I think there's absolutely no problem with that. And it's also a really, really good reminder that because we run our own businesses, we can do things how we like.

We don't have to be dictated by how things have always been done or how the big brands do it. I think that's really nice.

Yeah, it's quite nice to have that kind of sense of agency and to think, yeah, we, we, you know, we are in control. And sometimes it doesn't feel like that.

You think, oh, my gosh, I'm trying to conform to all these things I should be doing, but actually, you know, no, I'm my own boss and sometimes things just aren't realistic to kind of get things done, everything done all at one time and everything else as well, behind the scenes. But I think, yeah, just being really clear how you're communicating with customers and reminding them you are a small business and a small team.

I e 95% me, then. Yeah, Touchwood. I've got really lovely customers who are always very understanding and patient, which is I'm very grateful for.

And that's good, because your business has to work for you. So have there been any. I mean, we've touched on a few. But have there been any other challenges that you face with having a physical store?

Yeah, I mean, being there in the winter. We were going to record, weren't we, together in February?

And I did contact you to say, given I don't open in October, let's reschedule it to a bit later in the year, because I might not have been so happy and positive about having a shop throughout the winter period. The winter is hard. There's no heating in my shop. I have a heater that keeps the customers happy when you're sort of sitting.

And I think when there's dark days where it's raining and cold and windy and it's dark by 4 o' clock and people are a little bit broke after Christmas and not necessarily prioritizing going out, buying clothes, the day has felt a lot longer in January and February than they have felt the last six weeks or so.

Now the sun's out, the clocks have gone, I can have the door open to the shop because it's lovely and sunny and I have like sort of little display outside the front of the shop and it's just a little bit. It just feels.

It's hard to describe, but the whole feeling of having the shop is really different at the moment because people are in a better mood, they're more sunny, they're more out and about and wandering in the sunshine and just the Warmer weather and having the door open to wander in compared to those really miserable long winter days where people aren't spending and you're sitting there and you just feel a lot more on display in a shop. There's no hiding.

If you have a quiet day in a shop, there is, there's kind of no way of dressing up and you're really dressing the fact up that it's been quiet and you really feel it more.

You can have a really quiet online day, but if you're very busy doing something else, you aren't necessarily sitting there monitoring the online sales. You might not notice till later.

But if you're quite literally facing the door of your shop on a counter and three people walk in across the whole day, which has happened, then if that happens three days in a row, you do start to find it harder to be like, oh, it'll be. And because I'm so new to this, a big part of this for me has been I haven't had the shop for a 12 month period, so I haven't been able to see.

Okay, I know that every January, you know, March, for example, when it's Easter might be harder. So I just felt like I had to ride it out a bit longer before we chatted to see if that changed a bit. And it definitely has.

But yeah, it's, it's been hard. It's very hard. And, and also being physically present as well, which again, might seem dark.

But something to consider when you had an online business for so long. I can quite literally sit here in my pajamas if I wanted to and not talk to anyone all day and listen to my podcast and, you know, work.

But being actually on every day to talk to customers and be pleasant and polite and interact with people actually takes a lot more energy than if you're very used to being on your own all day, possibly head down in the studio designing, and then suddenly you're engaging with people. It's that, that's quite, it's quite a lot. It takes quite a lot of energy.

I can come home on a Saturday and be like, you know, it's lovely, but it's like, you know, you're chatting, chatting, chatting all day to people and being there and, you know, making effort to show up and be presentable. It's things like that you might not necessarily take into consideration when you're opening the shop.

But compared to the online, where you can kind of very much be in your own surroundings and it's fine, no one needs to know that sometimes I cannot recommend you Know being in there on a Saturday after drinking too much gin on a Friday night with friends, because it's a long day, being present and sociable to people who, you know, you don't want to put them off coming into your shop because you're hungover behind the counter. So, yeah, that's. That's been a fun one to work with.

That's interesting and, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, the only thing I've got that I can kind of compare that to is I've started really recently doing a bit of networking in person.

I've always done lots of online things that you are all on zoom.

And I've started going along to things in person and I find even that, like two or three hours of actually engaging with people in real life actually quite draining. And I don't know whether that says something about me, I'm not sure. But when you're not used to that and you're used to sitting in your.

Like, I sit in my little office by myself most of the day. I talk to people online all the time. Usually it's one to one. Suddenly being in a room with lots of people or even not that many people. It's.

It's different, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. And retelling your brand story a lot and talking, which is lovely, but obviously you often repeating a lot of the same.

So many people have walked in, they don't know about the brand and they're really lovely and they want to know a bit more about where I come from and things. And I have some really, really lovely conversations, met some really great people in the shop. But yeah, it can, I think, you know, I'm not.

I'm naturally someone who has kind of quite low energy as a person. I've always been like that. You know, if you ask my kids how to describe me, they say she loves sleep and she loves going to bed because I just.

I'm naturally quite a, like, sedentary person. So it is quite a lot that takes out of you to be, you know, chatty and personable all day and it's great.

But I think I'm not underestimating that, especially after Christmas when it was quite literally six, seven days in a row every single day. It's. You've got to keep your. Keep your energy up. Lots of hot chocolates.

That's really useful people to know. So thank you so much for sharing that.

And if you don't mind me asking, have you spoken to any of the other you mentioned there were Other small businesses, independent businesses on the same street. Have you spoken to them at all about sort of the seasonality of the high street?

Because we hear about this in the press, don't we, that I think there are times when there's less footfall and the high street's quieter. That must be nice. You've got a community, enough of people that you can talk to about it.

Yeah, I'm really lucky. They were really inviting from the start. There's a. It's a very quiet WhatsApp group. There is a WhatsApp group that I'm on.

And my neighbor, you know, came round, they bought me cakes when I first moved in, came and introduced themselves and. Yeah, and a lot of them have been there for several years. You know, I'm talking sort of 8, 9, 10 years. So they really got to understand the flow.

And an interesting thing for me when I first opened was I was opening Sundays and I kept those Sundays going. And then I kind of realized that Sundays weren't that great.

And I think what helped was a lot of my neighbors and 90% of them, they don't open on Sundays either. And they've been there a lot longer than me.

And yes, they're not selling the same product as me, but they realize, you know, after speaking to them Saturday, Sundays just don't work that well in that area. And that was quite a nice kind of validation to say, well, if you guys.

You guys have got the history of being on this street on Sundays, years and years and years of it, and I've noticed Sundays don't seem to be great. It's not even like, you know, a couple of bad ones. They just. It's just a lot quieter in that particular area.

So chatting to them helped me kind of think, okay, I don't need to pressure myself to open on a Sunday. And they'll. Yeah, they'll validate if there's a quiet period. We do. There's a friend that I would message and say, you feel quiet Saturday?

And she'll say, yeah, it seems really quiet today. And we. And talking to them, realising the impact of the school holidays, definitely.

So half term and Easter, there's a real noticeable difference in the area. And I hadn't really considered that because it is quite a residential one compared to quite a hustly bustly high street.

And a lot of my audience, they just happen to be parents.

So it does impact me personally that when they go off for half term, wherever they might be and they're not coming to the shop, I do Notice, because a lot of them are my customers. But, yeah, I'm really. I'm very lucky that I can go to any of them and they're all really approachable and been really welcoming.

I had a little opening party in October. Quite a few of them came along. Yeah, I'm really lucky.

There's a really supportive nature and I think, not that it matters, but none of us have competitive shops. None of us actually have items that we can direct. I can direct someone to another shop and say, I don't have this. Go to this shop over there.

And we're not all competing for exactly the same kind of customer. So we can kind of complement each other with our. With our businesses, which I think is a really nice thing as well.

Yeah, that is really nice.

And in terms of your customers, do you find you're getting the same repeat customers or are you getting people coming in, trying to shop for the first time, or is it a bit of a mix?

It's a bit of a mix and I've been really lucky. I definitely. I'd say 85% of people come in and don't know the brand or are visiting the first time.

I've been able to have customers who are already customers that they can come in and try on new items, for example. And then I've had, I think, three or four customers since I've opened who've become really lovely, loyal repeat customers to the point.

One of them was in on Saturday with a little girl. Her little girl just comes up, gives me hugs.

Now, you know, I know all about her and her sister and they bring me little cards and they'll come in one of them and she'll just bring me a bag of sweets and little card because she knows that I'm just there all day. So I'm really lucky that they didn't know I existed before. I was in the high street there in Forest Hill.

But now, not only are they repeat buying, but they come in and have a chat and keep me company. So that's been like the best thing ever because I. I've got that on my unknown community, which is lovely. I have lots of lovely repeat customers.

And we'll chat in an Instagram inbox or in email. I've not met them.

And then to come in and there have been a couple, actually, that come in to meet me for the first time and actually like, you know, face to face, interact with people is being really special.

So I feel really lucky that, yeah, I found new customers and that obviously is a huge part of having a shop is just having a visible, another visible avenue for people to find me, rather than relying so much on social media and online and having an actual window for my shops to be seen, my clothes to be seen and I don't have shutters.

So when the shop is shut, which is quite nice, people can wander past and look in and the website's there and kind of, you know, it is a literal window to my world that I'm not paying, you know, a Facebook ad for that. People can kind of, you know, see me 24 7, but I don't have to be physically there without to happen.

Yeah, that makes sense. And that's really, I think that is really nice.

And is there anything you've done in particular, as in to get people to the store or if you see what I mean, is there anything you've proactively done to drive traffic to the store or is it a case of you're there and as you say, you've got this literal shop window or a bit of both.

Yeah.

When I, when I first moved in, I had lots of grand plans of I'm going to do all different little workshops in it, especially because I'm not open every day. And in all honesty, my energy for that has kind of dropped.

But I had that little party in when I sort of an opening party in November where I sent out some invites. But I'm actually planning that again a summer party and this year for existing customers and new ones as well.

So I've kind of been sussing people out on my newsletter and I've already got little guest lists and things and we're hoping to invite some local press. So little things like that where I'm kind of hoping to do little in. In person customer events where they get to come in and try in some new items.

There's a bit of a goodie bag, they get discount and things like collaborating with my screen who does all of my T shirts. You can come along and maybe print a bag and do all that. So it's nice to be able to do something like that.

But I haven't other than that driven anything specifically to the shop.

Like I said, I had ideas to do workshops and evening events, which sounds great and principle, but I had to be really realistic at one point in terms of dividing my time and managing all of my tasks for the business and working out how much some of those ideas were actually going to monetize for me. And I think, you know, you can have the shop open and even put a lot of Effort in.

And really unless you're clever about what you're doing, it's not always obviously about making money, but if you're going to be spending more money than you're going to be making and putting in quite a lot of effort and time is that I realized that I had to be cleverer and think, well, I better spend some more time with you on my website, for example, then there's only so much I can do as one person. So for now those ideas are kind of part that using it a bit more for like a specific customer event feels more kind of relevant for me at the moment.

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, and also as you say, you, you. There's also the online side of your business as well.

And there will only be a percentage of people who will come to the physical store because of where they're based perhaps or their circumstances. Like, yeah, not everyone will be able to come and shop locally.

But then I guess also there'll be people who will shop with you in the store who might never use your website. So that's really nice as well.

The Nyx, I definitely had that for sure. There's certain customers I know that wouldn't want to order online and they come in.

And equally, this is a good thing to look out for too is if you're, you know, trying to analyze your data, for example, and you can be looking at your point of sale sales across a month that have taken place in the shop. I do know for certain that customers have come in, tried an item on and then gone away and ordered it online.

And technically that will, if I was doing data, that wouldn't count as a shop order.

But to me that's a shop order because they've come in and they found me in the shop, they've kind of gone away and had a thought about it and then they bought it online and done like a local pickup. But that, that will register on my Shopify site as an online sale.

But really for me it's like, well, actually that was a shop sale because I came, they came to the shop, they met me, they tried on and then they just happened to go away. You know, whether they're busy or whatever or, you know, to be honest, some people just want to spread the payments over and they can do that online.

Don't see that in the shop. So yeah, that's. It's not always about what I've learned.

It's not always about on the day sales with the shop because you don't know who's going away and flip side, actually ordering online for picking up or sending to a relative etc that they've actually found you on the high street.

Because I do get quite a lot of people who are in the area for a day, you know, they actually live in London but they've come to visit a friend or I get people visiting, you know, relatives that come to babysit their niece or nephew and they come into the shop and then they'll go home to Bristol and they might order there. So that's, that's something to be mindful as well. If you're being tough on yourself about a quiet day, it might not be as transparent as that.

Well, that's really interesting. And have you noticed any other changes in how people like shop online versus in store?

I think yeah, I mean it's hard to know because I don't necessarily know the process of how they're doing online.

How many times, I mean I can probably see with some people how many times they've gone onto the website, added to cart and then walked off and three months later they purchased. So it's quite hard to compare the online people. But in the shop I think it's nice to see.

I've never had a changing area so that's really, really vital for me that I've got a proper dedicated changing room where people can kind of go in, tuck the curtain and you know, I've had like a screen in the corner before in the pop up shop because I've never had the space for a separate changing room.

And I do think a lot of people, understandably, they want to try something on and I have people who are, you know, really torn between two sizes and they'll come out and they'll want my opinion, you know, did you think this one looks better?

And perhaps, I'm guessing perhaps if that was online they wouldn't bother because they think, I don't know, between the medium and large, I don't know, can't be bothered to order it and try it on, send it back or they offer the exchanges for sizes, size swaps.

But in the shop I think they're able to be more considered and take their time and you know, feel confident that what they're buying is the right color and the right size for them. So that's a nice difference. It's just a bit more of a considered.

They're more confident in their purchase I'm sure unless they repeat buying online where they really had an item that makes.

A lot of sense. And do you find Online, do people buy like multiple sizes or multiple colors and then return part of the order?

Sometimes, yeah, it does happen. And we try and communicate as often as possible that we offer free.

So if you order a size medium and you want a size large, we'll pay the return poster to send back and the postage to send the order back to you as well. So it won't cost you anything technically to swap sizes. So that's something we introduced last year.

And that's been quite like a game changer for the business, actually, because we probably do at least three of those a week, where instead of someone just saying, I'm sending it back to St Fit, they'll say, actually, can I stop that for the size below? And we send them the label, they don't pay for anything, and then we send it back out to them.

And I'm quite confident that has helped improve my retaining customers and getting more confident sales rather than returns, because those are impossible in so many ways because we're all so many different shapes and sizes. So I think that's been a game changer.

I think that's brilliant because I don't know of anywhere else that does that. And I think because often you do get charged returns or you get charged for exchanges or at least one, you know what I mean?

At least one set of the postage you're paying. And it's. It makes it really hard.

And I think that is what encourages people to buy lots of different things, knowing that, you know, half the order is potentially going to go back because they don't have the confidence.

So I think that's a really great thing that you offer because especially if it's a new brand to somebody, it can be really hard to figure out, okay, am I small? Am I a medium, or am I somewhere in between? How will this design fit versus that one?

Definitely. And, you know, it's obviously quite costing us. I'm mindful that I have to pay postage sort of twice that.

You know, it's risky, but I think it's worth it to kind of hopefully retain a customer and give them that peace of mind and confidence. And we try and also be really kind of open about. Just contact us before you buy something and we will. I'll help. I'm pretty good at.

I can kind of tell you what size you should get because I know the product so well if you just get in contact first. But yeah, it does happen sometimes. A bit of an asshole mentality of like. Although I think ATOs these days, I believe.

I think they started Penalizing customers now who have had a record of sending back too much, I believe, and they're not allowed to do that anymore, which is fair enough because also what people don't necessarily know is that refunds cost us. So if you buy something for £115, for example, the card fee will come off that and then if you return it, we won't get that card fee back.

So we're actually making not only the loss of the sale, but we're actually making a little loss every single time. That would be all online businesses.

Every single time an item is returned for a refund because we've lost that car payment so we can do a swap instead. That's great for everyone, especially us.

Oh, that's really good. That's really good to know. So, yes, everyone. Now if you buy something, just know that you can exchange and yeah, rather than return.

That's really useful. And so have you had to make any other sort of changes since opening your stocks? I'm thinking pricing or how you manage your stock.

In fact, stock must be quite a big one, I assume, or not really.

I've managed to do it okay actually. Luckily being my system in the shop where I take the sales is linked to my online store, so it automatically updates my inventory.

So that's been quite seamless. So I don't have to kind of make it too complicated. I think I could if I was clever about it.

But I, yeah, I kind of just manage it all from the same stock pot, as it were really. And it's. Yeah, I haven't found it too tricky.

And pricing wise, it's actually been interesting because I've definitely been guilty in the past of being a little bit nervous of pricing.

I think a lot of small business owners might find this, especially at the beginning where you're kind of, you feel like you have to justify price and it's, it's silly.

But you, you know, it's quite hard to kind of say this costs this much and still kind of like, you know, I know why an item costs a certain amount because all the different elements that go into it. But it sometimes, you know, there are certain customers who obviously aren't your customer who might say how much.

But actually being in the shop and having to verbally tell people the price of items kind of makes you more confident because you know, there's no hiding behind it because much as price tags on items, I've learned that many years people, people don't see the price tag. So having to say yes, that costs this much so my knitwear is an expensive purchase, it's an investment piece.

But I, I'm really confident in my pricing and it's actually good for me to see people's reaction that they're the same. They'll say, oh, great, I'll, you know, save up for that. And they're not going to kind of all go, what? How much? Kind of thing?

Which is silly because obviously I did a workshop recently with, and it's like an FTA one, and there was a lady who was a photographer and she was saying the same thing. She was pricing a certain, like a package, she did. And everyone in the room said, oh my gosh, you're charging way too little for that.

Like, you really should charge more because it was a really great service. And she was like, I just feel bad charging more. And. But, you know, all of a sudden, your work, your time, etc. Etc.

There's a reason why it should be priced at this because you're not going to make money from that. So I think it's given me a lot more confidence in being kind of forward about this, is why this cost as much.

I can tell you how it was made and why, and not being a little bit kind of coy about it like I once was.

That sounds brilliant and I think it makes sense as well because I guess, as you say, you're having to, I assume, repeatedly explain the pricing, explain why the price, explain about the brand, and you guess you've done it so many times now, it probably just, you know, water off a duck's back. Well, I imagine the first time it must have been really scary to say it cost this much.

And because you're right, we can, whatever we do, whatever we charge. You're right.

I think all small businesses have this thing, or a lot of small businesses have this thing where we're almost shy to say how much we charge for things because it feels. Just feels a bit awkward talking about money.

And I know, and I think, you know, I do think a lot of it is a female thing. It's silly, doesn't it? I think a lot of men just don't care about that.

But yeah, for whatever reason, I think I do know a lot of small businesses feel that way and we shouldn't, but it's quite good to sort of just work through it, like you said, and repeatedly address it so you feel less uncomfy about it and just more kind of confident in your own pricing.

And I do know now if someone has a problem with it, they're not your customer anyway, they can shop elsewhere and with another brand for them that will suit their price point better. So that's fair enough.

Yeah, I think that's a really good realization to have because you're right.

Because whatever you sell, whatever your product is, there's going to be people who are cheaper than you and there's going to be people who are more expensive than you. Yeah, it's just. And you're right, it's.

We're all looking at different customers who've got different expectations and different budgets and that's actually a good thing. It would actually be worse if we were all selling the same products for the same price because.

Exactly. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, it's an eye opener from that, seeing it in person regularly rather than online when you're second guessing for some reason.

And I guess also you're getting some real life feedback from customers as well when you say tell them the price, as you say, you're getting some immediate responses and that must be helpful too.

Yeah, definitely. Seeing that and that, seeing that majority of people, most people, that's fine.

You know, they're not kind of making you feel bad for it being priced that way. And yeah, they've gone on to buy and it's like, oh, well, there we go. It's just, it's not, you know, not a big deal.

It's all in my own head and I'm projecting that onto people unnecessarily because it's not their issue, it's my issue.

I think a lot of us are guilty of that.

Yeah. Yeah, understandable. It's a funny, a funny one to navigate that. But yeah.

And have there been any surprises either good or bad since opening up your shop?

Sometimes surprises. I mean, one thing you might need to consider as well is your area that I do get some strange people on our street. And I have definitely.

There's been the odd occasion as a woman in the shop on my own where there's been a man who maybe is a bit drunk or a bit vocal. Where you do think.

I have thought, I don't feel, I think I have to shut the door and lock it actually, you know, I don't feel that I don't want that person coming to my shop because I will not feel comfortable and safe for that person in my shop. Hasn't happened for a little while. But thanks to the WhatsApp group on the street, we do know there are certain people.

I haven't had one in my shop, but then apparently there's a serial shoplifter He's a man who just. Just goes in. He's quite aggressive and shouty and so that is something I hadn't really thought about.

Is that your physical safety, especially if you're, you know, you're looking up in the evening and it's. It's in the winter, it's dark down the street. It is a quiet street I'm on. Yeah. Just being mindful of that.

Everyone's got each other's back a little bit. But there have been a coup. There's been two instances where I shut the door and knocked it and thought, I just. I don't want the door open in case.

While that person's wandering around shouting and being verbally abusive to everyone. So that, yeah, that's something.

As a woman on your own, I hadn't really thought about before and frankly, doesn't happen often that you feel a lot more vulnerable than the end. There's no, you know, there's nowhere to go. So, yeah, that's. That's something that happened a couple of times.

Oh, I'm so sorry that's happened.

No, I mean, everyone's all good, you know, but it just, it's. And like I said, you know, the people next door, it's great.

But you just have to be a lot more kind of tuned into that when there is, you know, unfortunately, someone who's not in the best state. And I'm sure it'd be all fine that you just on your own in the shop where there's no one there.

You don't really want to be dealing with that as a woman, so it's best just to play safe and just lock the door.

Yeah, no, that is really scary. So I'm sorry that's happened, but thank you for mentioning it, though, because again, that's something I never would have thought about.

And I guess until it happens for the first time, I think a lot of us wouldn't even consider that as a. I don't want to say risk. It is a risk, but hopefully a small one. But that. That isn't something I even thought about.

No. And I know we can have it with any, anywhere, can't we? And I lived across London, but it's. Because you're in one area and you kind of. You can't.

If you were somewhere else, you might cross the road and walk on, I think, because you're obviously chained to the shop, as it were, and there's nowhere for you to go. So, yeah, just being alert to that and it's, it's you know, it's fine. And I have an alarm system and a camera.

That was a good thing to think about too. Things like investing in the camera as well, just so if anything happens it's being recorded and making that camera quite visible.

That was from talking to some of the other shop owners too who had cameras who have alarms just for their own kind of security and backup, really. Just so it gives them a bit of more like peace of mind to have that they're visible. Just. Yeah, being mindful of things like that, that's really.

That's really useful. I didn't. Again, I didn't think about cameras, but you're right.

Also, hopefully that helps deter shoplifters, although it doesn't sound like that's an issue where you are, which is good.

Yeah, well, there are.

I have.

They haven't come to my shop yet, but there is, there is one that's known to the police in the area who just likes to shoplift. So there'll be an alert out from further up the road that someone. He's been spotted and so kind of watch out. So at least we know what he looks like.

But yeah, at the end of the day, so you just look after yourself. So I'm not going to take anyone on, but there's a camera to film them then. That gives me a bit of, you know, peace of mind.

Yes. Well, thank you so much for everything that you've shared. I think we've learned such a lot.

I didn't know anything about running a physical shop, so thank you so much for coming on and talking about it. This has just been fascinating and interesting and so, so useful.

I've got one final question before we finish, if that's okay, which is what would your number one piece of advice be for anyone else looking to open their own shop?

It's a tough one, I think for me. Definitely try and get to know the local area and try and get in with some local businesses who are already there.

Just start making friends and talking to them because that gives you an idea before you commit to a lease of what is it like in the area and talking to people.

I did quite a lot of talking to existing businesses, not just in specific Forest Hill, but in my kind of southeast London patch and getting some like, reality from them. And you will get people who are probably give you too much reality might try and put you off.

But then that's why I try and talk to, you know, at least three or four different shop owners in, in the area who've been there. You know a good few years that can give you some honest insight before you commit to anything. Because they're just going to give.

There's no reason for them not to be honest with you. It's not. Doesn't make any difference to them.

And they're going to bring up things, like I said about the rent free period that you wouldn't even necessarily consider that actually then the shop owners with that experience are going to help you and inform your decision a bit more.

So I think definitely get to know people in the area first and make yourself, introduce yourself to people and make yourself familiar before you commit and especially if it's something you're doing for the first time.

That's brilliant advice. Thank you.

And again, thank you so much for this episode because I think you've given a lot of useful information for anyone who is thinking of doing this for themselves.

Oh, thanks so much.

Obviously I'm still so new to it all and I'm still learning loads myself, so I'm by no means any kind of expert, but yeah, I've obviously learned a lot in the last seven, eight months just from this journey so far. So yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickyweinberg.com Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.