All about ecommerce law – with Clare Veal, Aubergine Legal

undefined: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly, practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:24

Hello, today on the podcast, I'm speaking with Clare Veal, a freelance commercial solicitor, qualified for over 20 years who advises businesses on a range of commercial matters. So Clare is an expert in all things law for e-commerce and well all kinds of businesses. And I invited everyone to answer all the questions I had and some of the questions that you had regarding how, how to stay compliant when running a products business. So, um, I fired a whole load of questions for Clare. She was very patient, um, very conscientious in how she answered them, and I hope you find this episode really useful. Um, I will say right at the top when we get into this, please, please, please don't be worried about all of the things that we cover. Um, because you may hear Clare talking about things that you didn't know you needed to do or things you think, oh, I haven't checked that. Please don't worry. Um. As Clare explains, the majority of us will be compliant and we will be doing everything right. And if we are not, there'll be a really simple fix for it. So this definitely isn't an episode to worry you. Um, if you're starting out now, it's a really good way of making sure you start right and you've got everything set up to be compliant right from the outset. And if you've been in business for a while, maybe this is just an opportunity to just have a quick check and just go through and say, okay, have I done this? Have I done this? And am I compliant in the ways that I need to be? Um, so yeah, not to, not to scare anyone. This should be a really useful episode. Clare was fantastic. So helpful and um, I really hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you do have any questions once you get to the end, then I will be including information on how you can reach out to Clare as well. So I would love to now introduce you to Clare. So, hi Claire. Thank you so much for joining me.

Clare Veal: 00:02:06

No problem. Thanks for inviting me along. I'm delighted to be here today.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:10

Oh, I'm delighted that you are here. Please start by giving an introduction to yourself, your business and what you do.

Clare Veal: 00:02:16

Yeah, sure. So I'm Clare. I'm a qualified freelance solicitor. Um, I've been running my own legal consultancy, which is Aubergine Legal for the last six years. Um, and I specialize in commercial law, which includes all things related to e-commerce and selling to businesses and consumers. Um, but I also have expertise in intellectual property matters, so that's anything to do with trademarks or copyrights. So things like your brand and your content. And also the delightful topic of data protection, privacy. So that's sort of me, my legal background. Um, on a personal level, I live in a little town called Hazlemere, which is right at the bottom of Surrey. With my husband and my two sons.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:01

Amazing. Thank you. So I've invited you here today to cover off lots of legal questions that we have for our listeners, about selling mainly online. So can we start with, what are some of the things that are covered by eCommerce law? What are some of the things that as business owners we need to consider?

Clare Veal: 00:03:17

Well, so e-commerce law is quite a big topic. Um, it's broken down into lots of different pieces of legislation. So for example, there are rules for how you should be dealing with consumers online. Then there are rules for the actual e-commerce experience, like for example, when you should be displaying your Ts and Cs and you know, the information you need to give people about your products and prices. And then there are also the rules on, um, data protection and privacy. So basically, um, anybody who's selling products or services online, they need to be thinking about designing their online presence and their sales processes to comply with all of these laws. Um, and you know, there, there's, there's three key, well actually there's four. Four key pieces of legislation. There's the Consumer Rights Act. Which deals with, um, all the rights that consumers have when buying or, um, buying goods or services online. Then the second one is the consumer contracts regulations, which sets out all of the information that you as a seller need to display before, um, before a customer actually buys your products. Then there's some, um, consumer protection unfair trading regs, which basically stops you from doing anything naughty, you know, nothing misleading or any aggressive sales practices. And then finally, there's the e-commerce, um, regulations, which kind of overlaps a little bit with the consumer contracts regulations. In there, it sets out all of the information you have to give people before they actually pay their money and buy the item. Oh, actually there's a fifth one as well. There's a data protection act as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:01

Wow, that's a lot, isn't it?

Clare Veal: 00:05:03

There's a lot. Yeah, there is a lot in there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:05:05

Ok. Well, we're going to try and break it down and make it super simple for everyone, Clare. So I'm going to start out with the first thing you mentioned was the e-commerce process. So I guess, I guess that's how the website functions and how people actually make a purchase. So what are some of the things that people need to consider here, please?

Clare Veal: 00:05:22

So the first thing I suppose you need to be thinking about is who are your customers? Um, if they're going to be, um, if they're going to be consumers, so individuals, then you have to bear in mind all of the consumer law requirements. So for that, you need to be crystal clear to your customers about what it is you're selling, what the price is. Any delivery times, what your refund policies are and so on. And so when you are setting up your website and your e-commerce experience, you must be making sure that you are ticking all of those boxes and including all of that information. Um, now some of the regulations do require you to display quite a bit of information before the customer actually buys the goods or services. And so people deal with this by having a set of Ts and Cs for dealing with the sale of the goods or the services. So be things like, you know, you have to tell people who you are. You know, the, the name of your company or, or your trading name, your contact details, um, your address. You d you need to tell people things like whether you are v a t registered and then there's all the information about the goods and services you're selling. You know, what it is, how much it costs, and so on. And so people deal with, you know, complying with the laws by having all of this information in their Ts and Cs. So I suppose that's the, the key, the key thing to think about when you're setting up your online shop.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:06:51

Okay, that's helpful. And I'm guessing that a lot of sort of website builders nowadays, so Shopify for example, a lot of this is built in, I mean, you do need to make customized, I was going to say make, but customize, I guess your terms and conditions and your policies so they're relevant to your business.

Clare Veal: 00:07:06

Yeah, that's a really good point actually, because you know, one business might be selling tickets for an event, and another business might be selling, you know, webinars or somebody else might be selling an actual physical goods. Um, all of those are, they're all selling online, but they're quite different things that are being sold. So you have to definitely, you know, you can definitely use those templates provided by WIC and Shopify and what you know, and all the others, but definitely tailor them for your business and for the things that you are actually selling, because otherwise they just won't make sense.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:07:40

That makes sense. Thank you. And when we're thinking about terms and conditions, um, what would you do if, let's say you need to write terms and conditions or, but you are completely stuck in what to include, where is there anywhere we can go and easily check what needs to be in them just so we can make sure with staying compliant.

Clare Veal: 00:07:56

Yeah, so, um, I mean, people can sort of go online and buy templates, um, you know, legal templates for this, um, which is fine as long as you read them properly and you fill them in properly and tailor it to your business. Or you can use somebody like me, I can help. You know, I do help lots of businesses draft their terms and conditions because there is a lot of information that you have to remember to include in your terms and conditions. Um, you can have a go at writing them yourselves, but sometimes it's best to get it checked to make sure that you've got all of that pre-contract information that you need to have in there is definitely in there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:35

Okay, that's really useful. Thank you. So I'm assuming that as long as you've got your terms and conditions set up and they've got, you know, they've been done professionally, you've had them checked, then the other information. So what the product is, the product price, et cetera, that's going to be on your product pages. So in terms of your website, you should be covered with the basics. If you've done that.

Clare Veal: 00:08:54

Yeah. So if you are setting up your website, obviously the first thing to do is to have all your pages set up where you are, you know, advertising your products or your services. Make sure that that contains all of the information about the products, the price, how it's delivered. Um, you know, if, if it's like an online course, you'd need to tell people how to dial in and all of that stuff. And then, so that's the first step. And then the second step is making sure your Ts and Cs tie in with that. And this is really important. The Ts and Cs have to be agreed by the customer before they actually make the payments. Now, I've seen some websites where, uh, the payment, the sort of the e-commerce experience doesn't have the tick box to agree and Ts and Cs anywhere, and the Ts and Cs are just displayed on the page. But you definitely need to get your customers to tick that box before they can actually go on to make the payment. In fact, your website should be set up to not allow the customer to pay until they've ticked that box.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:09:53

That is such a good point. Thank you. And actually, I, I brought something online recently and noticed I had to tick that box. Yeah. And that makes perfect sense now as to why that always pops up. Yeah, that's, that's good to know. And I, I do think, again, to reassure people, most of the pro, most of the e-commerce website builders, so using Shopify, again, this is something that's built in, so the functionality will already be there. It was just making sure that your terms and conditions are relevant to your business and you're not just using the template that, that they popped in there already.

Clare Veal: 00:10:25

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Just read it all properly. You know, sometimes there might be some clauses in there which don't apply to you and you can remove them. Um, if your, if your business is selling something sort of quite the, you know, something different, you might need to add some extra bits in. So, you know, by all means, use those templates, but make sure they definitely work for you and your business.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:10:44

Brilliant. Thank you. And so most of, um, my audience are selling physical products, but let's just touch very quickly on digital products. Is there anything else we need to think about if, if we're selling digital products?

Clare Veal: 00:10:56

So for, well, the same, well, actually before we go into that, I, I probably should just quickly mention that not only do you need the terms and conditions for selling goods and services, you also need to have on your website, um, a set of website terms and conditions, and a privacy policy. So all of these will apply to good services and digital products. Um, so just remember that you remember to have all of those documents in place. Then for selling digital products, you as well as having all the documents in place, you need to make sure that you've got some kind of protections in place for the actual content in your digital products. So you know, because the content in there is all going to be your copyright. So make sure you include copyright legends to, to tell the world that it's your, your work. Um, if you are selling digital products, um, maybe it's like a digital course and you are using, you might be using parts of other people's work. Make sure you have all the permissions in place. Then for the terms and conditions, there's going to be a slight difference here in that this is a digital product and so the usual cancellation rights that consumers get. So if, if you are buying something, if you're buying a good or service online as a consumer, you get a 14 day cooling off period. However, if you're buying a digital download product, that cancellation right won't apply. The key point here is that you need to tell people this, especially if they're consumers. You need to remind them. So you need to put it into your Ts and Cs. Um, some businesses even go a step further and have a little separate notice on the actual purchase paid, making it crystal clear that once they've made their payment, then they won't be entitled to a refund once the download has started. So that, that's the key thing to think about with selling digital products.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:47

That's really helpful. Thank you. Um, so Clare, you've mentioned consumer rights a few times so far in the conversation. Can you just talk us through some of the rights that consumers have and how we ensure that as sellers we're compliant with them please?

Clare Veal: 00:13:02

Yeah, sure. So, um, as I've already mentioned, that they're, they have the rights, all of those pre-contract information. So like I've already mentioned, make sure your websites display everything upfront before they purchase. Um, and before they, you know tick that box and make that payment. All the information must have been displayed to them. Then we've just touched on the cooling off period cancellation rights. So consumers definitely have that right. So, um, you know, this is applicable for any sort of goods or services sold at distance. However, there are some exceptions. Um, we've just mentioned downloadable contents, digitalised, digital items, but there are also other exceptions where consumers won't be entitled to this cooling off period. That would include things like, um, booking a hotel room. Um, you know, renting a vehicle, you don't have a cooling off period for those. Um, for things like, um, bespoke items, if somebody's ordered something and people are making something bespoke for a, for a customer, then the cooling off period doesn't apply. And things like catering and leisure activities, you know, like theatre tickets, weddings, all of those kind of things don't, um, entitle the, the customer to cooling off period. Um, So that's, that's one thing to, to kind of bear in mind. The other right is obviously consumers, if they're buying goods or services, they do have a right to a full refund, uh, beyond the 14 day cooling off period, if an item is faulty or not described or doesn't do what it's supposed to do, um, or if the service isn't up to standard. So there is that refund right, as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:43

Thank you. And are there any exceptions to the refund right? Because for example, I'm imagining, let's say you are selling pierced earrings or underwear may be, um, are there certain products where you can, where you can stipulate there are no returns? Or can anyone stipulate no returns for anything?

Clare Veal: 00:15:01

No, you can't, yeah. Yeah. Those examples you've mentioned, yeah. You can't, you, you don't have to give a refund for them. Sometimes it's at the discretion of the seller. Um, but yeah, like I said, if, if an item is faulty or not as described, or if they buy online and it's within that 14 days, then yes, you definitely have to give a refund. Say if somebody, um, went into a shop, say if you went into a shop and you bought a, a red jumper and you took it home, I think you have 30 days that you can get a refund if you change your mind. But beyond that, if you simply decide that you wanted a blue jumper, not a red one, but there was actually nothing wrong with the product, then actually the shop doesn't have to give you a refund. It's just that it's quite usual in this country for shops to have quite flexible and favourable refund policies for customers as part of their customer service. So yeah, you should check. There's no, you don't always have to give a refund if somebody just changes their mind.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:15:56

That's really interesting. And so that's for, so for, for selling online, did you say that was 14 days that.

Clare Veal: 00:16:02

Yeah, so for 14 days, um, customers, you know, they can change their mind for whatever reason, and you have to honour that, unless, of course it falls within one of those things that we just mentioned, the except exceptions, you know, like theatre tickets or digital downloads.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:20

Okay. And is there somewhere that people can go and find out what the exceptions are?

Clare Veal: 00:16:25

Yes. Um, so if you just Google, I mean, uh, the.gov website has got a page on it. And also, um, uh, trading standards also have a page about it as well. Um, if you like, I can send you the links later and you can share them. With us. Your network.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:16:43

Yeah. That'll be amazing. Thank you. What we'll do is we'll put those links in the show notes. That might be interesting because I've certainly brought products where I've been told before I've thought them, this can't be returned for whatever reason. Um, and I have, and some of them have been products out, so I'm not, I'm not asking because I've got a vendeta against anyone. I'm just genuinely curious. Um, because I'm thinking there might be people thinking that they don't have to offer refunds, but they actually do. Or perhaps they're off, they're offering refunds where legally they maybe don't have to. So I think it's just a good check for people to do really.

Clare Veal: 00:17:13

Yeah. And actually these links that I send you, um, anybody who's selling online should definitely have a read of these anyway because it would be really useful to read this information when you are devising your refund policy because you need to make sure you are falling the right side of the law and by reading these links will definitely help you. Um, you know, because everything's different depending on what you're selling. So a good read.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:17:35

Yeah, that'd be really helpful. Thank you. So we'll link to those in the show notes. And now let's talk a bit about data protection, which is another right that consumers obviously have. What we all have, um, do we need to do to make sure we um, compliant here because obviously if we're taking payments and orders online, then obviously we are holding a lot of customer data or we're at least processing customer data. Um, what do we need to do here, Clare?

Clare Veal: 00:18:02

So, yeah, you are quite right. Um, any online shop needs to comply with data protection laws because you are taking people's names, their payment details. Uh, their address as well. So you definitely, the first thing to do is to make sure you are familiar with the general data protection principles. So, um, this is things like, you know, make sure you only collect data that you need, actually need, so you know, don't collect someone's date of birth. If you don't really need to know how old they are, then make sure that you are only keeping the data for as long as is necessary. That's the legal position, so don't hold onto you know, loads of customer data if you don't really need it, um, you know, and for the data that you are holding onto, make sure that you've got, uh, an actual reason for keeping that data. Um, and also make sure you keep all the data safe and secure, because if you were doing something wrong, you would just need to be able to justify and explain to the I C O why you were doing something in a particular way. So on that point, the ico, if anybody doesn't know, is the Information Commissioner's Office. And they're, uh, a government body which looks after data protection on their website. It's super useful. They have difference that they have a whole section for businesses and organizations, and there's layers of tips and information on there as to what you need to do when setting up and running your business to stay compliant with the laws. So I think, yeah, the first step is maybe go onto the ICO's website, have a look, get familiar with what you're supposed to be doing. Then secondly, Um, you should put in place a privacy policy for your business. Now, by having a privacy policy, you are going to be ticking a lot of the boxes already, um, for complying with data protection laws. So your privacy policy needs to tell people, you know, who you are, um, how people can contact you, and then you need to set out in detail all of the information, um, that you're collecting about people, how you're going to be using that data. If you're going to be sharing it with it with anybody and your justifications for why you're using it all, if you fill in your privacy policy properly, then you're probably about 90% of the way of being data protection compliant anyway. Um, and then there's two other things to think about here with data protection. The sec, the, the first one is that you also need to remember that cookies on your website are also seen as a form of personal data. Um, and in the UK there are laws which require people who, um, have a website to tell their website users what cookies are being used on their website. And then explain what the cookies do, and then provide information about the reasons why they're there. And, um, at the moment, um, this might change soon, but at the moment, UK laws also require website operators to have a little cookie popup notice the first time a website visitor visits a website. You might have seen these annoying popup notices.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:04

Yeah.

Clare Veal: 00:21:04

And that the point of that is that people have to agree to any non-essential cookies that are used on the website, but there's a little glimmer of hope here. In that there is a new piece of data protection law going through Parliament at the moment, and if it gets passed, then they will be getting rid of this annoying cookie popup requirement. Um, then the, the other, the final thing to think about with data protection is, um, that you need to, as a business, if you're collecting personal data about people, you need to register with the ico. So all organisations have to pay this fee once a year. Um, it's, I think it's 35 or 40 pounds at the moment. Um, basically it acts like a data protection tax. So you pay this, this money and then the Information commission's office uses that money to like help provide guidance to businesses. And they also use that money to investigate data security breaches. But if you don't pay that fee, you know, they, they might ask you why you haven't paid and remind you to do so. They, they do sometimes do little audits. They go through company's house and they, they check the companies have all paid their fees. So it's definitely something you need do.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:20

That's really useful to know. I actually though remember, this was a long time ago, Clare. Getting a notification about that. There was something, and I can't remember what the thing was. There was one, there was a reason I didn't have to pay it, and I cannot think what that reason was. It was, it was a reason they gave me when I phoned them to check. Um, do you have any idea what that might have been?

Clare Veal: 00:22:40

I don't know. Yeah. I mean, they, they do have different levels of fees for different types of businesses. I think charities pay less, for example, um, it might be that you weren't actually collecting data about people. I don't know.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:22:53

What does counter, that's a good question actually. So what is cus what do, what do they, what's classified as customer data?

Clare Veal: 00:23:00

So, um, well they call it personal data. Basically it's any data that will identify somebody as an actual living human being. So, for example, you know, Clare Veal and my home address, all of that is personal data because it all relates to me. But if you were just referring to me as Clare in Surrey, then that wouldn't be seen as personal data because there's more than one Clare in Surrey. So that wouldn't actually link back to me as an individual. So yes, it'd be things like people's names, their addresses, email, telephone number, bank details. Um. Yeah, even, you know, like as I mentioned, the cookies because people can, can track, uh, an actual person by the use of a cookie because it links to their laptop. So it's basically the key thing to remember is anything that will identify you as an actual person.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:53

That's really good to know. And do we need to give customers the option to opt out here? Because I've noticed that very often now, if you buy something from an online shop, you do have, you can, you do have the option of checking a box if you don't want them to save your date, your details, or you don't want them to pass your details onto a third party. Is that a legal requirement to have that on your website?

Clare Veal: 00:24:14

Yeah. So, um, in your privacy policy, you do have to set out to people what their rights are with respect to their data. And one of people's rights is the right to have their data deleted. Um, but you don't necessarily, you don't have to have that opt out, but you do have to have information in your privacy policy telling people what their rights are. And then if somebody asks you to do that, then you would have to act immediately. Um, so yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:24:40

That makes sense. Thank you. And are we able to use customer data for marketing? And the reason I ask this, I know that something that's really popular is to use customers email addresses, to build an email address to then market to, or send newsletters or whatever it is. Um, are we allowed to do this?

Clare Veal: 00:24:59

Yes. So you can, um, freely add your customer's data to your newsletter list without even getting them to opt in or get their permission on the provision that it is for marketing to them for similar types of, well, the same types of goods and services. So, for example, if I went onto your website, um, or if somebody came onto my website and bought some of my legal templates, I can add them to my newsletter list and I can send them marketing about other legal services I'm providing them, that I'm providing. However, I wouldn't be able to use those email addresses to tell them about my new sort of side business. Um, so for example, say if I set up a gardening business in my spare time, then I wouldn't be able to send an email to them, you know, telling them about my new gardening business because they originally got in contact with me about legal things. So there's that. That's the first thing. So you can freely market people for the same type of services and goods. Um, if you want to market people for other things, then you would need to get them to opt in. And then the final thing to remember here is regardless of how you got them onto your list, every time you send them a piece of marketing, you do have to give them the option to unsubscribe. So you need to have that little link to allow them to come off of your newsletter list if they don't want to receive any more marketing.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:25

That's brilliant. Thank you. And again, for people, for peace of mind, I think most of the sort of mail software, so mailerlite and mail chimp, that's built in automatically, so.

Clare Veal: 00:26:34

Yes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:35

Um, and also I know that when I add people to my own mail software, I also get the little popup asking me if I have permission to add people to the list as well. So I think a lot of the mail services have this kind of thing built into them now.

Clare Veal: 00:26:49

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:26:49

Um, in case anyone's worried whether they're doing this, you probably are, you probably are doing it and you just don't realize.

Clare Veal: 00:26:54

Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the beauty of using those providers. But I mean, I think the key things to remember here is like, you try to remember who your customers are and, you know, are they going to want to receive all of this marketing? Um, you know, you just, you, you don't want to annoy your customers, so yeah, use it, you, you know, carefully and you know, make sure you're not overburdening somebody's inbox because you'll just be annoying. So yeah, make sure you have those permissions if you need them. Give people the option to opt out and don't overuse it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:28

And I have another question I've just thought of. So, which is that let's say that um, you're not planning on sending any emails or doing any marketing. Do you then have any reason to hold a customer's data? Um, or should you, in that case, just not keep it?

Clare Veal: 00:27:45

Well, it depends on what type of business you are running. Say for example, If you're providing, if you're a psychologist and you're providing psychology services online, then there's a, there might be a reason why you need to keep hold of, for example, your therapy notes in case, um, because I think there's, like, there's legal requirements to hold information about children, for example, and their health until they reach the age of 25. So in that case, yes, you should, you can definitely hold onto it. If you, if you're running a website where you are just selling um, just actual physical goods once somebody has, um, received the goods and they've paid and it's been delivered and the timeframe for, for a refund or a return has passed, then yeah, you don't really have a reason to hold that data. So technically, in line with the data protection laws, you should be deleting that data. So again, it all depends on the business that you are running and the type of goods or services you're providing as to whether you should or should not be deleting that data.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:28:48

That's really useful. Thank you. So staying on the subject of marketing, I've heard of something called the CAP code. I don't know what that is. Um, can you tell us what it is, Clare, and if it's something we need to think about?

Clare Veal: 00:29:00

Yeah, so that's, this is important. Um, if you're going to be doing lots of marketing and advertising. So the CAP code is a code that's been put in place by the advertising Standards Authority. Again, that's part of the government and it sets out guidelines for ensuring that advertising and marketing promotions are carried out in a lawful manner. Um, now the key thing to note here is that it is just guidance. So if you don't follow the guidance, you won't, you know, you won't get a massifying, you won't go to prison. You know, nothing bad like that will happen. But the bad thing that will happen is that they use non-compliance, um, to sort of name and shame people. So if you're not following the code and not complying with it, then they will investigate. They do publish their rulings and they use that to name and shame people. So it will mean that your business will have a bit of reputational damage. So it's not good. So people, most businesses do take the time to have a look at the cap codes website. And to read the code, it's set out in a really clear way. It's just like little numbers and bullet points, but basically it all boils down to common sense. You know, one of their rules is to, to not be unlawful and to not mislead people. So, I mean, as long as you are running your business and advertising and marketing your goods and services in a, in a sort of lawful kind of honest way, then you should be fine.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:27

That's really useful. Thank you. And now I'm going to throw out another word that I've heard of. Um..

Clare Veal: 00:30:32

Go for it.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:33

Is PCI compliance. That's something else that I've heard of.

Clare Veal: 00:30:36

Yeah. So this is, this all relates to taking people's money and doing payments online. So pci, um, it's, it's they, the PCI people have set up this security standards council, um, I think it was back in 2005 or 2006. And basically it's a little council which has been set up to ensure that all companies that process, store or transmit credit card information, um, put in place, um, a secure environment in which to do that. Um, so for example, if you are processing customers payment details, you need to do things like put in place a, a good firewall, have proper password protections in place, um, encrypt payment details, and so on. Um, now, now this, bear in mind, this all, um, applies if you are managing the payments yourself. But if you are using a payment processor like Stripe, or if you're using a platform that has payments integrated like Shopify or wic, then they will already be p c I compliant as the organizations dealing with processing payments. So this will reduce your risk. Um, so if you are using one of them, I wouldn't worry too much about this, but you are still ultimately responsible for checking your security procedures, so it's definitely worth reading up on it. Maybe conduct some little security scans on your website. Make sure that everything's safe and secure. Um, top tips that people normally give in this area is to make sure you know, you have unique, hard to break passwords, that if your customers provide their credit card details over the phone that you, you know, don't hold onto it, delete it. Um, pay special attention to roles and permissions on your e-commerce platform site. You know, make sure, uh, you know, the people who absolutely need it have access to those admin roles and nobody else. Um. And then, you know, people like wics and Shopify, they often have things like two-step verifications and third party authenticator apps and things to, to keep things safe and secure. So use those where possible. Um, but yeah, I hope that explains it a little bit.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:55

That does. Thank you. And I just have a few more questions, Clare. I did ask some input here, so I've questions that may, may not seem like they follow. Because okay, we'll work through them. The next question you may have covered already. We've talked quite a lot about websites. Is there anything else, any other kind of legal documents or notices that we need to have on our websites to ensure we're compliant? Other than the terms, conditions, and the privacy policy and the cookie policy? Is there anything else?

Clare Veal: 00:33:26

So yeah, apart from those three, you would need some website, Ts and Cs as well. Now, these will just sit as a little link at the bottom of your website, and they will apply to anybody who visits your website, whether or not they actually go on to becoming a customer of your's. And so this will have inform, that these basically are there to protect you. It will tell people, um, that the content on your website is owned by you and that people can't copy it. It'll have things like, you know, don't introduce viruses onto our, our website. It'll have wording like, you know, if you, if we provide you a, with a link to another website while not responsible for that third party website. And then if your website has lots of advice or, you know, um, you know, certain content, you might want to put a few disclaimers into your website, Ts and Cs to sort of reduce your liability. Um, so, so yeah, you definitely need those. They normally sit as a little link at the bottom of the home page next to your privacy policy and cookie policy. So you, people normally have all three of those documents together at the foot of their homepage. Then, as you've mentioned, you have the ts and Cs for buying the actual goods and services. And then the final thing, um, that it's worth doing, you don't have to do this, but it's worth putting a little copyright legend at the foot of your website as well to tell the world that the content on your website is yours. Um, so I think if you had all of those, oh, also some people have, um some people like to have their refund policies separate from their Ts and Cs as a separate link because, um, refunds and cancellations are quite, are a key term and, um, the courts don't like it when businesses try to hide key terms in their terms and conditions and their small prints. So a lot of people when they buy online will just click that, yes, I agree to the terms and conditions, little tick box. So your refund and cancellation policy is quite key, so it is advisable to have that as a separate document as well. Even though it's a bit of a repetition, I would have that. And then finally, the other thing that some, a lot of people do on their websites is to have an FAQ section as well, which again, could include some of the legal information, but it could also include information about, you know, how your business, how your goods and services can be brought and all of that. So yeah, I would think about all of those things.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:35:51

That's really useful. Thank you. Um, this is a completely different topic now, Clare, so we can talk about something other than websites. Um, which is what about if you were working with influencers? So, um, some of my clients and and former podcast guests have done very well working with influencers online to promote their products.

Clare Veal: 00:36:09

Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:36:09

Is, are there any legal considerations that, um, we need to be thinking about please?

Clare Veal: 00:36:15

Yeah. So if you are using an influencer, um, well the key, the first thing is to make sure you've got an agreement in place with them to set out, you know, how you're going to be, how they're going to be, um, promoting your goods and services for you. But the key thing to remember here is that it is actually a form of advertising. And so the Advertising Standards authority, which we talked about just now, they now say that you have to use the hashtag ad where an influencer is promoting your goods and services on social media. So, you know, make sure that they do that. And you know, in your agreement with your influencer, you, you should have a clause in there obliging the influencer to do that. And also to comply sort of generally with the advertising standards, authority and, and the cap codes. Then I suppose, what else would you need to think about with the influencers? Um, well, you'd need to think about your target audience and whether the influencers, followers are aligned with that. You know, are they actually going to help promote your goods and services? Um, and then you need to think about, how are you going to pay the influencer? Will it be a set fee? Will it be based on commission, you know, number of sales of the goods that they're promoting? Or some people pay influencers by just giving them some of your, your goods as a, as, as, as the fee. But what, however you agree to pay them, make sure it's all agreed upfront with the influencer. And then another little point, well, final points of notes with influencers is that you might not want them to be, um, doing any work with any of your competitors. So you know, if you are, if you are selling hairbrushes, for example, you might want to use a particular hairdresser influencer to promote your, your hairbrushes, but you might not want them to be, uh, promoting your competitor's hairbrushes. Say you might want to consider having, um, an exclusivity clause in the influencer agreement to make sure that they don't do that, um, whilst they're working with you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:16

That's really helpful. Thank you. Um, so now I have a question about trademarks, um, which is, should we be thinking about trademarking our business names?

Clare Veal: 00:38:27

Well, that's a business decision. So it's, it's a, it's a, maybe you could, you could not. It all depends on you and what's important. So a trademark, if you get one, will you, if you have a trademark registration, you will be able to stop anybody else using the same or similar name, um, for the same or similar types of goods or services. So if you have a trademark registration, it's really easy. You just whip out your trademark certificates. You can send them a cease and desist letter, and it's really easy to stop them. If you don't have a trademark, then you have to rely on the law of passing off, which is complicated. There's lots of things you have to prove. So I suppose to answer your question, should I trademark my business name? The answer is, If you are worried that people are going to copy your name and you, it's important to you, then yes, get it protected. If not, maybe not. Don't bother. Lots of people run their businesses without having their brand protected. But just a quick point to note here, it's really cheap. It's, uh, you only have to pay the Intellectual property office 170 pounds to register a trademark. So, um, it's definitely worth thinking about. But before you spend that money and apply, you do need to carry out some checks beforehand to make sure that nobody else already has the same or similar mark registered.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:46

That's a good point actually. I was about to ask that. So before you even start trading under a certain name, it's probably a good idea, isn't it, to check that there's nobody else, there's no other companies in a selling a similar product to you with a similar name to you. Because presumably if you did, they could send you a cease and desist letter.

Clare Veal: 00:40:02

Yeah, exactly. What, there's three main checks you should do. First of all, just do a run on, uh, just a box standard Google search. Just see who else is out there. Um, then secondly, you can go onto the Intellectual Property Offices website, and you can do a search for three. You just type in the name and you can, you can select different types of classes of goods or services. So that will give you, uh, a check. And then thirdly, go onto company's house and you can check for company names. You can see if anybody has the same or similar company name to you. Um, it's always best to stay away from anybody with the same or similar name, with the same type of goods or services. Um, but obviously, uh, if you, if people have a trademark, they can't have that trademark for everything in the world. So, for example, you know, HSSBC the bank. They have all of their trademarks registered for financial services. So in theory, you could set up another business using the HSSBC brand. Well, actually that's not a good example cause that's a really famous mark. And there's, uh, extra rules on famous marks. Um, well take my business name for example. So Aubergine legal. I have that registered for legal services so I could stop any other freelance solicitors or law firms from using the word Aubergine for legal services. But if, you know, if somebody else wanted, you know, if, if the gardening business came along and wanted to call themselves Aubergine gardening, then I couldn't stop them from doing that. So that's generally how it all works.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:30

That makes sense. Thank you. Um, just a few more questions, questions, Clare. You'll be glad to know I'm getting to the end of my list.

Clare Veal: 00:41:37

That's ok.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:41:38

Um, so is there any kind of insurance or protection you recommend product businesses taking out? Because obviously we're all going to try really hard to be compliant with everything. Um, is there any insurance that can help us? Should we get something wrong? And are there any insurances we should have just in general because we're doing business?

Clare Veal: 00:41:57

Yeah. So, well, first of all, it's super important that you do get insurance in place because things do go wrong and you don't want your business assets or if you're a sole trader, your personal assets coming under, under fire. So yeah, definitely get insurance in place. Um, I would always speak to a business, um, sorry, an insurance broker about all of this because obviously, it's not really my area, but the things that you probably should put in place are, um, well, if you're selling products, you should definitely have product liability insurance. Um, you know, if you're selling physical goods, if you are providing services, selling services online, then you might want to consider getting professional indemnity insurance in place, and then it might be worth just having general business insurance in place as well. So, for example, that would protect if you had a load of stock in infantry, um, you know, and it got damaged in the fire, that type of insurance would protect that. So yeah, those are the three main ones. Um, if you have people coming onto your site, then you would. Which probably doesn't really apply here because these are all online businesses. But say if you had a shop or you were providing services in real life, then you might need public liability insurance as well.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:43:12

That's really useful. Thank and I think your advice to speak to a broker is really good because they will be able to advise you based on your business, but I guess we need insurance. That's good to know. And my final, final question, I promise Clare, is should we also be thinking about talking to an accountant because as well as they. So when we're talking about staying compliant, I'm thinking it's not just the law, it's also, there's also other things. Um, so do we need an accountant as well?

Clare Veal: 00:43:39

Well, the short answer to that is yes. Always, always get an accountant on board. Um. Especially if you are selling your goods or services outside of the UK because there will be v a t and tax implications if you're selling services cross borders, which I don't know anything about. And I, I don't want to know anything about, it's not my area. But, uh, the accountants will be all over this if you're selling online. There, there's certain digital taxes as well. So yes, definitely talk to an accountant, make sure you're doing everything properly, you know, filing, you know, on the right times and you know, you know, there's certain, uh, thresholds when you need to be v a t registered. So yes, definitely talk to an accountant.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:24

That's brilliant. Thank you so much, Clare, for all of this. Um, thank you for answering my big list of questions, being so patient, being so clever as well. Um, and I guess finally, I just want to reassure everyone that this isn't, and I'm, I'm sure you'll agree with Clare, this isn't as scary as it sounds. And the likelihood is you'll be doing all of this already. Um.

Clare Veal: 00:44:44

Yes.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:44:44

But it's worth, it's just worth checking, isn't it?

Clare Veal: 00:44:47

Yeah, I think the key takeaways are is just to have a general read around. I'll, I'll send you some links that people should be reading. Um, and then the key things is, you know, making sure that that that e-commerce proce, purchase process is done correctly and that you have those documents on your website. If you do all of that, then you'll be most of the way there, being compliant without even realizing it. So yeah, definitely don't worry.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:12

Brilliant. Thank you so much Clare. I'm going to link to everything you send in the show notes and also your website if people want to get in touch with you if they've got any questions or have anything they need looking, looking up. And um, yeah, thank you again.

Clare Veal: 00:45:25

No problem. Thanks so much for having me today.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:30

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vicki weinberg.com. Please do remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.